College admissions is an unfair game.

Applying to College
21

<p>Why would the rich not have advantages in the college admissions game? Money makes the world go 'round; it only makes sense that those who have it can use it to their advantage. If you don't like it, go to China.</p>

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<p>^ lol .</p>

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<p>Top colleges lower their expectations when viewing a kid that comes from a less than ideal situation. They require more from those who come from privileged backgrounds. I know this for a fact as I have seen many kids who are first generation or URMs get accepted to top institutions while those who are upper middle class with better grades and test scores are not accepted.</p>

24

<p>I think it's pretty fair as is. Think: If rich kids don't go to the schools, who's paying for the poorer kids' education?</p>

<p>I know most, if not all, of the Ivies are need blind.</p>

<p>I'm kinda confused, too, as to what aspect of the college application process is that money consuming (aside from testing and application fees). SATs? 2300+ = totally gettable without intensive tutoring. APs? College board has fee waivers for those with a demonstrated need, and most schools make many of the classes available. Summer programs? Please. What kind of summer program do you need? Volunteer if you can't get into a program you can afford to pay for. Look for an internship if you don't want to volutneer. There's plenty.</p>

<p>I've written this before: unless we're talking about someone below the poverty line, I don't think, unless under extrenuating circumstances, a person has anything to complain about regarding admissions.</p>

<p>Plus, not everyone can get into a top tier college -- there literally just isn't space, so people must be separated by their scores, talents, and motivation. I think I've read that something like 80 percent of either Northwestern or Dartmouth (don't remember -- I was considering between the two) students receive grants/aid.</p>

<p>Anyway. if rich kids really all just bought their way into the schools, well, they'll prove themselves on the lower end of the grade distribution curve, and it won't much matter anyway.</p>

25

<p>Jesus Christ, people! The wealthy has always had an advantage over the less wealthy. And so what? My family is a working-class family and we have to work hard for many things. Despite that I'm still going to a good school. You just have to work harder. Sure, rich kids are blessed, so are geniuses, but we don't go crying about geniuses taking up spots in our colleges. (What did rich kids do to earn their wealth? Nothing. What did the geniuses do to earn their brilliant intelligence? Nothing.) </p>

<p>Beside, there aren't enough children of wealth to take up all the college spots. There are plenty of spaces for everyone. Just study and stop whining about other people advantages.</p>

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<p>its unfair that some rich kid can afford his way into college while many people such as myself have to work harder to and give more effort to get in. by the way i am below the poverty line.</p>

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<p>^^Who told you that they favor people with more money? Unless you have donated a million dollars, admissions favors first-generation and lower income candidates. That means you can get in with lower scores and grades.</p>

<p>Look up the dean of Harvard admissions. He grew up lower middle class, and his primary motivation seems to be help financially disadvantaged people in the admissions process.</p>

28

<p>Yes, it's unfair and somewhat obnoxious, but, as they say "that's the way the cookie crumbles"--that's life. We've all been on this planet long enough to know that equality is a rarity.</p>

<p>I think it's kind of sad that college has taken over people's lives to the point that they have to hire a consultant to do it for them. The college admissions process is not fair. But then, it's also not fair that wealthy kids can live in huge houses and not worry about debt and have all the latest technology and yadda yadda yadda. In fact, in many ways the college process is a lot more fair because they judge you based on your application and no matter how good a councelor is, she can't change grades on a transcript or work experience or whatever else.</p>

<p>Edit: Also, I think it depends how "rich" we're talking about. I mean, if they are rich enough to pay for a new sports center, then they have an advantage. But colleges are on the lookout for a diverse student body and they like to give opportunities to those who might not otherwise be able to afford them.</p>

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<p>We used Hernandez as our "counselor" for a very small fee: the price of two of her books. Followed the advice literally, which worked wonders. We found nothing unfair about it. (We could not have afforded a private counselor at any price.) Pretty small investment for a big return.</p>

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<p>What were you expecting, the rich and powerful to be denied? Money is power, power decides what goes. Complaining though, well that never really got anywhere in the realm of socioeconomics.</p>

31

<p>I think there is value in some of the advice applicants may get from expensive counselors, but it's not advice that isn't available elsewhere. I learned a lot by camping out in the aisle at Barnes & Noble in front of all the college admissions books. Never bought a single one, but spent many an afternoon there reading. </p>

<p>I think it does help to know how the admission process works, what are the common pitfalls, what might help, what might hurt. It's not that it's rocket science, it's just that when you (or your kid, if you're a parent) come to the application process for the first time you are totally naive, while the admissions officers do these evaluations by the thousands and tens of thousands year after year after year. Naturally, they look at it a little differently than a person might who is coming at it with no knowledge of what the thousands and thousands of other applications might look like and how they are compared to one another.</p>

<p>That said, the information is out there for anyone. A lot of good advice turns up here on CC and elsewhere online and there are many useful books available. I think using a counselor, in a way, could not be as good. You could come off looking too packaged, and also if you want your uniqueness to shine though (which you do) it will so much more authentically if you and your parent or other adult support do your own research and take your own angle on how to best present yourself.</p>

32

<p>Almost all of the "top" schools, including all of the Ivies, are need-blind for admissions. The people making the admissions decisions have absolutely no idea what your income is unless you choose to tell them about any specific hardships you had to go through becuase of your family's lack of money. Many of the schools in the next tier, though, and the less prestigious private schools are need-aware, and will be more likely to admit you if you can pay for their full tuition.</p>

<p>This is also different from "meeting full need," which just means that, after the school accepts you, it will not "gap" your family and force you to take out hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans.</p>

33

<p>As a student who comes from a family which has an income of $24k, I disagree with this topic.</p>

<p>I got into Princeton mainly because of what I accomplished. Having a counselor wouldn't have helped.</p>

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<p>The very best colleges like the Ivies, Stanford, MIT, and others are all need blind in terms of admission (as in your ability to pay does not factor into your decision), try to guarantee to meet 100% of your "demonstrated need," and boast having between 40 and 50% of their students on some sort of financial aid. You don't get 40+% of your students on financial aid if you don't give lower income applicant a bone to help even the playing field with the super rich kids whose parents can afford to send them to the best tutors, consultants, summer programs, schools, etc. At these schools the kids who get in with money are ones whose parents donate an exorbitant amount of money for a new building.</p>

<p>Also, 40k a year for college consulting is a lot more than 99.9% of families are willing to pay. There are many families that are deemed rich enough to pay 100% of the costs of college that cannot possibly afford to pay that kind of money. Many of my friends at my college (which is an Ivy) are from families like this. If you have 40+% on financial aid and another large number who are fairly wealthy, but no where near rich enough to afford top notch college consulting, you have to ask yourself realistically how many people at these top schools are able to pay their way in by donating a ton of money, paying for outrageous consultants, and throwing money at other stuff. Probably not enough to greatly affect admissions.</p>

<p>I have some classmates whose parents hired private college counselors to help them with the process (I don't think any cost anywhere near 40k). These people basically did what CC helped me do. They look at your grades, SAT scores, and ECs and help you find safety, match, and reach schools to apply to. They help you set up an applicaiton schedule (rolling schools, EA/ED schools, RD schools) and assist you with writing essays. By assist I don't mean write the essay for you, I mean help you get ideas and proof read. Some kids met with counselors starting freshman year, and just got help coming up with ECs to participate in to boost their resume. My friends and classmates who used college consultants got into places ranging from Ivies to schools from that book called something like "colleges that change lives." The consultants cannot change your grades, raise your SAT score a whole lot (look at the kids who take the SAT 3 times after countless hours of studying and cannot break 1800), or change your teacher recommendations.</p>

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<p>With that attitude how can you hope to succeed? It is not a big secret that life is not necessarily fair. But in this case, I think you are getting upset for no good reason. No one is going to get you into a top college if you don't have the grades, the scores, and the extras. So focus on what you CAN control rather than how unfair things are. Take books out of the library, use this site, make a plan, and stick to it. No guarantees. Just do the best you can.</p>

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<p>What law says that? Some schools, especially some wealthy, high-end schools, <em>choose</em> to have need-blind admissions policies, but there is no requirement whatsoever that they must have such policies. There are plenty of respectable schools where you won't find the phrase "need-blind" mentioned anywhere on their admissions website.</p>

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<p>">>College admissions is supposed to be need-blind. <<</p>

<p>What law says that? Some schools, especially some wealthy, high-end schools, <em>choose</em> to have need-blind admissions policies, but there is no requirement whatsoever that they must have such policies. There are plenty of respectable schools where you won't find the phrase "need-blind" mentioned anywhere on their admissions website. </p>

<p>"</p>

<p>I said they are supposed to be need-blind because all the top colleges I am familiar with declared they are need-blind.</p>

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<p>Its not all peaches and cream for the "rich" kids too. I am upper/middle class, ( (aprox 150k household income), and I know that I am going to be raped by the system. My parents are not paying for my college, they say I need to be a self made man. Unfortunately, the government/private unis does not see it this way, and expect my parents to pay for my education. I have a job and work 20 hr/week and I hope to have 10 grand by the time I enter college, yet I know that I will leave whatever uni i attend with 180k+ debt. This doesnt happen to poor kids, because their families are not expected to pay. Mine is expected to pay, but will not (I am not complaining about my parents, do not start an argument about that, i am complaining about the system). Also, it is really difficult to be in the top 10% in the rich kids schools because EVERYONE has good grades, and everyone wants to go to the selective unis. I am getting killed by class rank right now.</p>

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<p>You need to look a little beyond HYPSM. Here is a counter-example from Colgate's admission FAQ:</p>

<p>"Is Colgate "need-blind" in admission?
Colgate provides need-based financial aid to most admitted students who demonstrate need, but the admission process is not 100 percent need-blind."</p>

<p>In other words they will consider whether or not you can afford to pay as part of their decision process, but once you get admitted they will do their best to help you come up with <em>their</em> (and not your) reckoning of your demonstrated need.</p>

<p>Colgate may not be part of the the HYPSM club, but it's no slouch either. And there are lots of other schools in the same boat. These schools do not have multi-billion dollar endowments to play with. They are doing what they can to help, but they have to realistic about their own financial situation, and whom they choose to admit plays a role in that.</p>

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<p>As a current Duke undergrad, who comes from a family in the lowest income bracket, I think it'd be fair to throw in my two-cents.</p>

<p>While it may seem that being, er, poor, can actually hurt one's chances at gaining admissions to a top-notch school, I think there's a lot of benefits that offset it. Yes, coming from a family with limited financial resources did put a strain on my time while I was in high-school (job vs. extracurriculars, etc.). However, I do believe those elite schools take this into account; while I had mediocre extracurriculars, I had a great diversity of low paying service jobs which, while they did nothing to stimulate my academic intellect, showed I had other, more-pressing priorities in my life. Coupled with mediocre test scores (er, mediocre for these schools anyway), great essays and recommendations, I was accepted into all the schools I was applied to (Duke, Princeton, Emory) except for WashU (Waitlisted). </p>

<p>But the best benefit for us "poor" kids definitely comes when we receive our financial aid package. Imagine the surprise to my family when I opened up the letter and found that college was only $900 upfront, with about $2000 in loans/work study. Even better is the fact that so many small community scholarships are tailored towards students of lower-income families. Thus, I was able to pay off my first two-years of college with scholarship money. I even made a little profit; instead of reducing my grants, Duke sent back a refund check with the little surplus of scholarship money I had. </p>

<p>I think we need to remember, while many students of these universities are filthy rich, a huge proportion of them reside in middle to upper-middle class. And frankly, their financial aid is nowhere near as generous. $50,000 a year is still a great deal of money for families who make $100k+ a year, especially with multiple children. I have friends who will be graduating from around $20k-$50k in debt. While, in the grand scheme of things, $20k is not a lot of money, it is nevertheless a huge amount to a new college grad.</p>

<p>And, remember, many of these schools have those new financial aid initiatives where if your family makes lower than $40k-$60k per year, then you get to go for free (Isn't that HYP, Duke, and some other schools?).</p>

<p>I think the big argument here is that regardless of these financial aid initiatives, the majority of the population is still from the wealthy class and that such initiatives only affect a select group of people. But, this may just be a self-selective issue right now; students from poorer communities (and who are typically first generation college-bound) tend to automatically assume that these schools are too expensive. That's what I thought beforehand. Thankfully, my drive to get out of this god-forsaken community easily trumped my fear of taking on mounds of debt.</p>