<p>Mini, it is obvious you are emotional. The largest Asian groups in America are Chinese, Korean, Filipino, Japanese and Indian Americans. They also happen to be on average richer and more college-educated than other Asian groups. They are creating stiff competition when they only apply to less than 5% of all American colleges and universities in the country.</p>
<p>tensigh:</p>
<p>I remember you are a benficairy of URM policy. You were given prefernce which I think is well deserved. I thought Yale education will make you in believing in people's diversity. Alas it did not turn out that way as you are questioning wrong people who work hard to achieve success in education and play by rule. </p>
<p>I am questioning the worth of Yale education which does not allow its kids to develop logic in what is right and what is wrong.</p>
<p>Think if you were offered admission in LACs (which is fine colleges) and Yale. Why did you not go to Lacs and chose to matriculate at Yale. Please apply logic before you preach.</p>
<p>To me there are two separate questions in this thread that are interesting and worthy of discussion.</p>
<ol>
<li>How do we talk about any racial group given that in order to do so we assume there are common characteristics?</li>
</ol>
<p>I believe that as long as we articulate the assumptions, not presume them, fine. In other words, while I may not like threads titled, "Are All Asian Parents Similar and If So How?", I think the discussion would bring to light what stereotypes are baseless, which based on some truth, which harmless, which painful. And also illuminate the factors behind some of the truth behind some of the stereotypes. In sum, lead to better understanding all around.</p>
<ol>
<li>Do a majority of "Asian" (Indian, Chinese, Vietnamese? The Islamic Asians could have a whole other kettle of presumed bias to fry) parents and students believe that there is a quota keeping them out of top colleges?</li>
</ol>
<p>The next part of that thread would be, well, is there? If so, how implemented? If not, why then does the belief persist? This discussion might also lead to better understanding all around.</p>
<p>Those threads would keep my stomach quite calm, FWIW. And BTW for anyone who doesn't know I am as white as they come with an ancestor who signed the Declaration of Independence and another who was reputedly the actual guy locked in the closet to write the Constitution in an all-nighter. But I have worked for over five years with a group of people who are Chinese, Korean, Filipino, and Indian ethnicity - from Taiwan, Hong Kong, PRC, the Phillipines and India, and the US, and our lunch time conversations have, actually, led to better understanding all around.</p>
<p>Also a lot of very funny and very sad stories all around.</p>
<p>"Mini, it is obvious you are emotional. The largest Asian groups in America are Chinese, Korean, Filipino, Japanese and Indian Americans. They also happen to be on average richer and more college-educated than other Asian groups. They are creating stiff competition when they only apply to less than 5% of all American colleges and universities in the country."</p>
<p>So, which ones are "too many", please. Which ones are applying to schools where they are not "qualified"?</p>
<p>And, by the way, your data on the largest groups happens to be wrong. Would you like the census link?</p>
<p>Redstar, I don't even attend Yale University. I think you are confusing me with someone else.</p>
<p>tenisghs is at Northwestern.</p>
<p>tensighs, you stated "I find it ridiculous that one parent here finds their daughter going to Amherst instead of Harvard very disappointing." Where in my post did I said that? </p>
<p>As it is my daughter who is going to college, her joys and her disappointments are hers. As a parent I can only standby and wish her joy and a shoulder to lean on when needed. It is your own prejudice that blinds you from even reading my posts without misinterpreting them.</p>
<p>A recent report by the General Accounting Office (G A O) found that complaint to the The U.S. Education Department's Office for Civil Rights brought by Asian Americans than those from those brought by other minority groups. A higher proportion of complaints by Asian Americans reviewed by the GAO concerned college-admissions issues. College-admissions cases typically take longer to resolve. (Seven of the thriteen cases reviewed by the GAO took 26 or more months to be resolved.)</p>
<p>The O.C.R. also found Asian Americans' complaints to be valid more often than cases brought by other groups.</p>
<p>The civil-rights office has made changes to speed up its investigations and reviews andreduced its backlog of cases.</p>
<p>Sources:</p>
<p>General Accounting Office report on Education Department investigations of civil-rights complaints by Asian-American students.</p>
<p>Mary Geraghty "U.S. Lags in Resolving Bias Complaints by Asian Americans" The Chronicle of Higher Education</p>
<p>PaDad, there is nothing wrong with Amherst. That is my final point. There are more colleges in this country to attend than Harvard. If I had to go through the same admissions process, I still wouldn't apply to Harvard because they don't offer what I want nor do I care to be in Boston (Cambridge) for that particular matter. I looked at other schools in the Midwest, Mid-Atlantic and the Southeast. I didn't just look at HYP or UC-Berkeley. There are parents who insist that their children only apply to certain schools, and I think it's terrible. And as a result, elite universities have to turn down more than what they can actually enroll.</p>
<p>newmassdad:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Sigh. Can't you understand that the absence of overt discriminatory policies (such as quotas) does not mean discrimination is not taking place?
[/quote]
sigh back at you. Take a walk around any of the top UC campuses or check out the stats on their websites and you'll see that Asians are the majority group despite the fact that they're far from it in the state. Likewise, certain other groups (hispanic, AfAms) are present in much lower percentages than the pop. It's quite evident that there's not an anti-Asian bias being practiced at these Universities (as well there shouldn't be). Why do you think there is (or did I miss your pooint completely)?</p>
<ol>
<li><p>"Asians" is such a broad category that it's almost useless for analysis. "Black", "Jewish", "WASP", "Polish", "Hispanic" -- they all cover a broad spectrum, but in most cases there is at least some common core of experience and culture. Maybe it is reflected in only 10-15% of an individual's personal characteristics, but that is at least something it makes sense to talk about. With "Asian", I don't think it's anything like that much. Sikhs, Tamils, Malayam, Indonesians, 4th generation Chinese-Americans, ethnic Chinese refugees from Vietnam, Formosans, Khmer, Hmong, Japanese, 4th generation ethnic Japanese from Hawaii, Hawaiians, Koreans, Pinoy, Moro, Maori, Pashtuns, Tajiks, Khazaks . . . And that's just the grossest cut, before you start factoring in class, education, region, etc. "Asian" is just not a useful frame of analysis. </p></li>
<li><p>On the purely anecdotal level, "Asians" -- meaning, in this case, South Asians of seven or eight stripes, ethnic Chinese from several different backgrounds, and isolated others -- are definitely overrepresented at my kids' large public magnet school relative to their precentage of city population. But they are not necessarily overrepresented in the group of super-successful, highly ambitious students relative to their percentage of school population.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>tensish:</p>
<p>Do you have evidence that all asian parents wants their kids to apply only HYP</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
There are parents who insist that their children only apply to certain schools, and I think it's terrible. And as a result, elite universities have to turn down more than what they can actually enroll.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>How many true asian friends you have that they tell their kids to apply to HYP. Many of my asina friends wants their kids to forget HYP and apply to medical school and go to other colleges. My kids did not even listen to me when she applied for colleegs.</p>
<p>One day when you meet your prince, would you want him to put time with you and taking care of your kids. I am sure you will shy away from a person who do not want any responsibility. Same thing goes for male students too. Do not write the way these writers who sell books just to stir people. It is not reality.</p>
<p>JHS. Thank you for your precision.</p>
<p>"It's quite evident that there's not an anti-Asian bias being practiced at these Universities (as well there shouldn't be)."</p>
<p>And, does the smaller number of african americans mean there IS bias against them?</p>
<p>ucsd+dad,</p>
<p>You do miss my point. Mere numbers, whether above or below population percentage, tell us nothing. One would need to look at the achievement of the group in question. Better yet, one would need to know the details of the applicants. </p>
<p>So, the fact is that with the data we have, we don't know whether or not discrimination, conscious or otherwise, is occurring.</p>
<p>What we do know is that one group feels that there is discrimination. </p>
<p>Does that not concern you? Others, are of course, quick to blame those "over-reaching" asians for expecting too much. But I wonder.....</p>
<p>Redstar, numbers do not lie. Just look at your local universities that are not considered "prestigious" by an means and look at the demographics of the institution vs. the flagship or elite school. You will be amazed.</p>
<p>There is good reason to believe that there is a higher proportion of high academic achievers among Asian kids in the U.S. than in the population in general. This presumably reflects the well-known strong cultural emphasis on academic achievement in the largest Asian-American population groups.</p>
<p>My kids' school system publishes a list of National Merit Semifinalists from each high school. It also publishes data on the percentage of students from each major racial/ethnic group at each school. Let's consider three such schools that enroll substantial numbers of Asian students (most of whom are of Chinese, Korean, or Indian heritage). </p>
<p>School A had 24 NMSFs this year, of whom 5 (21%) had Asian-sounding names. The proportion of Asians in the total school population is 13%.</p>
<p>School B had 11 NMSFs, of whom 5 (45%) had Asian-sounding names. 21% of the students are Asian.</p>
<p>School C had 36 NMSFs, of whom 17 (47%) had Asian-sounding names. 22% of the students are Asian.</p>
<p>How do we expect colleges to deal with this phenomenon? What's fair? From the point of view of the individual Asian applicant, "fair" means that he or she will be considered on an equal basis with other students of comparable credentials. But if colleges do it that way, they will enroll a "disproportionate" number of Asians because a "disproportionate" number of Asians are highly qualified. </p>
<p>To talk about fairness and discrimination, I think we have to acknowledge the fact that the credentials that we regard as indicators of academic achievement (GPA, SAT scores) are not evenly distributed among ethnic groups.</p>
<p>tenisghs, you stated "there is nothing wrong with Amherst. That is my final point". Again, you misrepresented what I said. Where did you find I made any reference to such? I don't think you understand that many parents, some are even Asians, take on the notion that we parents cannot live or dictate the life of our children. We do not feel joy or pain because of where our children attend college, but we do feel the joy and the pain of our children.</p>
<p>"What we do know is that one group feels that there is discrimination. </p>
<p>Does that not concern you? Others, are of course, quick to blame those "over-reaching" asians for expecting too much."</p>
<p>...Not addressed to me, but I'll answer anyway. No, it does not concern <em>me</em>. It concerns me if it's true (about any group). </p>
<p>And in case some posters here (apparently many do) believe that overt, biased, inappropriate generalizations are being drawn on this thread, Wow, you must revisit the student CC forums -- specificially threads started by certain <em>Asian</em> students complaining bitterly & sometimes tragically about their overbearing Asian parents. Apparently they don't have a problem with the "generalizations," which many of them assert to be accurate.</p>
<p>Some of the aforementioned threads reinforce the "all or nothing" mentality of many of these parents, whether born here or born overseas. It's HYP/MIT/S/UCBerkeley or nothing; it's My Student Gets Admitted At All Costs (& whether or not he or she likes the school, belongs there, etc.) or nothing. Either my student has reached some fantasy "absolute" bar of qualification (doesn't exist -- everything's relative now, or hasn't anybody noticed?), or my student has been discriminated against, vs. less-worthy students of diff. ethnicities. </p>
<p>When the state of non-discrimination is equated with admission for MY child, then something is wrong, & I don't mean it's the (private!) colleges that need to change.</p>
<p>I'm sure we all know of many exceptions to the above real-life stereotypes, but to deny that there continue to be parents with these attitudes is to deny the reality that is still very much present.</p>
<p>Because those institutions just named are not 60-80% Asian, does not make them racially discriminatory. It makes them diverse.</p>
<p>Excellent discussion.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>We can use the term Asian in this respect. The common denominator across the following Asian cultures such as the Chinese, Koreans, Japanese and Vietnamese is Confucian philosohy and values.</p></li>
<li><p>Confucian philosophy values Education. In particular, he valued facts and knowledge. This can explain the preference for Art & Music EC's, Math & Science choices of Asian students.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>
[quote]
Because those institutions just named are not 60-80% Asian, does not make them racially discriminatory. It makes them diverse.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But did they achieve that diversity by admitting less qualified students of other backgrounds in preference to more qualified Asians? If they did, then they achieved diversity by being racially discriminatory.</p>