College Campuses Too Asian?

Parents Forum
81

<p>Epiphany,</p>

<p>It is my belief that the stereotypes do have some basis in truth. That doesn't give those of us outside that racial group to use the stereotypes egregiously. And without qualification about the source of our assumption. It's kind of dangerous and not rigorous either. Given how often the stereotypes are wrong, it's painful to be in the group that is identified and in a blanket fashion when you yourself don't fit the stereotype.</p>

<p>Maybe I feel it strongly in part from growing up constantly being stereotyped for the way I looked in a way that was antithetical to my real self.</p>

82

<p>I don't think there's any question that selective colleges DO enroll a disproportionate number of ethnic Chinese, Korean, and South Asian students relative to their representation in the overall population (and probably relative to their representation in the applicant pool). The only issue (as with, once upon a time, Jews) is whether the enrollment should be even MORE disproportionate. Or rather, on what basis is proportionality measured?</p>

<p>I suspect, if one looks at the various pools that I think colleges use to analyze their applicants (athletes, musicians, pre-meds, legacies, politicians, developmentals, whatevers) the major Asian ethnic groups are probably admitted roughly proportionately to their representation in the qualified applicant pool. The problem (if that's what it is) occurs because they are not necessarily evenly represented in each pool. It doesn't surprise me that Amherst's Asian population is proportionately a lot less than Harvard's, because Amherst has almost as many athletic teams as Harvard does, but only a quarter of the students. If 33% of the "academic" kids are Asian, but only 5% of the athletes, that could easily produce 30%, 20% or 10% overall representation depending on the perceived need for athletes and the size of the class, without anything approaching conscious discrimination on anyone's part.</p>

<p>Of course, many people question whether anything like the "academic" basket is legitimate, or whether it represents some sort of covert means of discriminating against one group or another. But that's really another discussion. And even within the putative "academic" basket, there may be sub-baskets for pre-meds, mathmaticians, English majors, and Classical Studies types. I would bet that kids with a strong interest in Greek and Latin are overrepresented in admissions relative to their share of the applicant population, too (and that a relatively small percentage of that group is "Asian").</p>

<p>Personally, I think it's ludicrous even to suggest that admissions officers at any reputable institution sit around and say, or even think, things like "we can't admit too many Asians." That doesn't mean that there may not be some de facto discrimination (e.g., valuing WASPy ECs highly, or wanting to keep enough Classics students to justify the department's existence, or not necessarily looking to have an orchestra big enough to perform Mahler's Second Symphony).</p>

83

<p>On the whole, when it comes to private prestige school admissions, "Asian" men (in particular) have one real disadvantage. They're small.</p>

<p>If you are an "Asian male" who wishes to go to one of these schools, the best thing to do (other than being reborn to another family), besides getting perfect SAT scores and GPA, is give up the violin and start eating. A lot. When you are young. As many calories as you can shovel in. If you weigh 265+ as a senior, and can play offensive guard, you're in. Don't need too much athletic talent. You don't need to be able to handle the ball, and you don't need to be particularly speedy (if you were, you'd be headed to Div. I.)</p>

<p>I do NOT have my tongue in my cheek.</p>

84

<p>Mini, The Yankees would still be in the playoff if only they have more pitchers from Taiwan? </p>

<p>tongue in cheek</p>

85

<p>From the NY Times:</p>

<p>"The Yankees learned yesterday that a top free agent, the right-handed starter Daisuke Matsuzaka, above, would be available this winter.</p>

<p>As expected, Matsuzaka’s Japanese team, the Seibu Lions, agreed to post him for major league teams, who will submit sealed bids for the right to negotiate with him."</p>

86

<p>"But did they achieve that diversity by admitting less qualified students of other backgrounds in preference to more qualified Asians?"</p>

<p>Overall, no. And I'm not trying to play with words, but it depends partly on who is deciding the definition of "qualified"? Is it those (Asian, or any group's) parents? (Of non-admitted students). You see, I actually think that argument is racist in implication, even though I'm sure you, Marian, do not intend it as such. What I am saying is, many Asian parents assume they know what college "qualification" is, or should be (or is in their native Asian country). And frankly there is often the assumption (such as I've seen implied on this thread) that Asian students are by nature or by definition or grouping "more qualified" than any other ethnic group. Baloney.</p>

<p>We've had this conversation on PF so many times lately that I weary of resurrecting it & really don't want to Go There again right now, but suffice it to say, that if one has a narrow interpretation of "qualification," one can "decide" that one's own child has been unfairly excluded, and - if by extension that includes a large ethnic group that prefers to concentrate on that narrow subset of qualifications -- may charge "discrimination" based on ethnicity.</p>

<p>(1) Colleges get to decide who's qualified. Applicants & their parents do not get to decide that.</p>

<p>(2) It is less a question, in the last 5+ years of "less" vs. "more" qualified. The cohort sample (total applicant pool) being looked at is largely equally qualified or comparably qualified. Among qualified applicants, private colleges & U's are choosing what mix of backgrounds (not limited to ethnicity, but including that) makes for the most vibrant class in the college's own determination and set of priorities. That vibrancy includes many factors & personalities & areas of the world. It is by no means limited to the Northeast corner of the country, to secondary education in particular "feeder" prep schools or high-rent feeder public schools, to particular majors, etc.</p>

87

<p>
[quote]
Of course, many people question whether anything like the "academic" basket is legitimate, or whether it represents some sort of covert means of discriminating against one group or another. But that's really another discussion.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Or, maybe that is the heart of the discussion. Does anyone remember the reasons why Harvard et al began their legacy preference. To disadvantage certain ethnic groups. </p>

<p>In fact, one must question why these same colleges have separate athletic baskets, to use a term from above. IMHO, it's a pretty easy way to give strong preference to prep school kids (white, anglosaxon, protestant perhaps?) at the expense of others?</p>

88

<p>By definition, colleges always admit (and strive to matriculate) the 'most qualified' class to meet their institutional mission and constraints. It doesn't have anything to do with individuals at all.</p>

89

<p>First off, I think this thread has been filled with a lot of semantic quibbling from the beginning over the term asian, and I also feel that a lot of this quibbling is by and large meaningless.</p>

<p>Not meaning to offend anyone, but a post listing off the numerous different sub-groups that can be considered does not add anything to the discussion. We all are aware of the actual meaning of the word and the fact that it is by and large used much too specifically, but at the same time it is still a useful term meant, here, to denote a group that shares academic drive and a desire to attend top colleges.</p>

<p>That is in this context, in other contexts it can have different meanings and we can break it down to much more specific meanings. But here, you KNOW what we're talking about, why clutter the thread with semantic arguments.</p>

<p>--</p>

<p>Back to the argument at hand.</p>

<p>Stereotypes against asian americans are by and large "positive," which lends them greater credence and support from within the community. But they are no more accurate than stereotypes against other groups.
This assertion that all asian students are only happy with the top schools HYPS etc. is ludicrous. From my personal experience living in an area with a large asian population, for every student that aspired to HYPS etc. there were at least 5-10 who did not and settled for the state school. Of course this doesn't come through very well on CC...</p>

<p>Or for the stereotype of the hysterical asian parent, I doubt that breed as described here exists at all.
@epiphany, what experience do you actually have with asian families outside of listening to CC kids rant about it? You can't take the words of a stressed out teenager, on an ONLINE message board, at anything close to face value. Everyone *****es about their parents, most of the time its gross exaageration, or anecdotal. From growing up in a chinese family and talking to many of my asian friends about their parents, I can tell you that NONE of them are as overbearing as the stereotype says. Not even close in any instance.</p>

<p>@the discussion between PADad and tenisghs. Please understand that though other schools are good beyond HYPS, they ARE considered the best and most people understandably want the BEST. It's understandable to be disappointed in Amherst even though it is a wonderful school?</p>

<p>I have more to say but this is already so long and my dorm is about to have a fire drill so...</p>

90

<p>"We all are aware of the actual meaning of the word and the fact that it is by and large used much too specifically, but at the same time it is still a useful term meant, here, to denote a group that shares academic drive and a desire to attend top colleges."</p>

<p>But is it true? The Hmong and Laotian population in California has the highest high school dropout rate of any group. In the Pacific Northwest, it is Palauans and Guamians, followed by Filipinos (which, as noted, is a very large group.) The Chinese community is highly fragmented, with immigrant aspirations very different from those of the 5th or 6th generation, and I think you'd find basically the same among Japanese populations. </p>

<p>I would be willing to wager that the majority of first and second generation "Asians" have never even heard the names of most of the schools bantered around here. It is one of the reasons that so many of them, with GPAs and SATs that would put them in the HYP mix, CHOOSE to attend UCLA and Berkeley/</p>

91

<p>Intended or not, thanks for the laugh, mini. </p>

<p>And I'll continue with the suggestions. If you are in one of these groups, start studying something obscure or uncommon to your ethnic population. (Because I agree with JHS' assertions about academic interests playing at least somewhat into the admissions mix.) Become a studio artist, take up percussion, concentrate on creative writing, seek a student seat on the City Council, become a jazz dancer, study acting (esp. theater -- do some Summer Stock), seek a journalism internship -- or better yet, do none of those things even. Go completely against type & forego intense achievement for an intense personal experience doing something completely different, something which just makes you grow as a person -- even something spiritual, whatever.</p>

<p>And my tongue is actually slightly in my cheek. No, I don't think people should pretend to be who they are not, either. Of course not. (Like the Asian family who moved to rural nowheresville in the hopes of acquiring an admissions advantage). If you like the sciences, have some promise in them, are practically oriented as a person or a family, go for it. Just don't assume that because you graduated from TJHSST or a similar high-profile school, that you've earned a seat in the Engineering Dept at Princeton or MIT. There are way too many just like you.</p>

92

<p>Quote:
"Stereotypes against asian americans are by and large "positive," "</p>

<p>Positive sterotyping is not really complementary. In reality this only serves to promote the misrepresentation and misunderstanding of the diverse peoples, cultures, and socio economic circumstances of all Asian AMERICANS.</p>

93

<p>"epiphany, what experience do you actually have with asian families outside of listening to CC kids rant about it?"</p>

<p>I teach them one-on-one (thus also get to know their parents well), I counsel them, I advise them, I listen to them in-person (not cyber-space), I lived in one of those Asian countries, my family has continued its social relationships with Asians from that time to the present, Chinese- and Korean-American students are both daughters' best friends & I know their families & those families' friends well, daughters' school had large supply of the well-educated, ambitious, competitive version of American Asians (not necessarily more competitive than Caucasian students, but as competitive -- just more narrow in what was an "acceptable" college admission & what was not), they are a large part of our orchestra & in making orchestral scholarship decisions I get to know the families well (part of my job to do so), etc.</p>

94

<p>PhatAlbert</p>

<p>HYP are the best? Not to my son who is applying to zero Ivies, though he'd have as good a shot as almost anyone (not like a Hollywood star or the President's daughter) at them.</p>

<p>He wants a small LAC, preferably not filled with his HS classmates, that IS filled with intellectually curious, quirky, not-so-preppy kids, no Greek stuff, no big monetary outlay for athletics, small discussion-based classes and good accessibility to professors.</p>

<p>"The best" is a totally relative term. He read the description of Princeton's "eating clubs" and experienced nausea. I'm sure it's a great school for somebody, but it's not the best school for my kid.</p>

95

<p>
[quote]
And even within the putative "academic" basket, there may be sub-baskets for pre-meds, mathmaticians, English majors, and Classical Studies types. I would bet that kids with a strong interest in Greek and Latin are overrepresented in admissions relative to their share of the applicant population, too (and that a relatively small percentage of that group is "Asian").

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I agree totally.</p>

96

<p>xiggi,</p>

<p>the stats are out there but when I posted the link, my email was deleted! When I copied some of the stats, my thread was terminated!!</p>

<p>beprepn</p>

97

<p>When I was on our local school board, somebody actually wrote to us asking if we could make our kids more like Asian kids.</p>

<p>Huh?? I wrote back to him and said we couldn't make our kids (or their parents) Asian, but we were doing everything we could think of to get our parents ( and kids) more involved in the educational process. Geez.</p>

98

<p>@frankie38, you said that

[quote]
Positive sterotyping is not really complementary. In reality this only serves to promote the misrepresentation and misunderstanding of the diverse peoples, cultures, and socio economic circumstances of all Asian AMERICANS.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes I agree with you. I wasn't trying to say that the stereotypes are positive and thus acceptable, I was just making the point that the fact that they ARE positive makes people FEEL that they are more acceptable.
For example, no part of the african american community would support the stereotype that blacks are criminals. However there is a significant proportion of the asian american that believes in and tries to reinforce stereotypes about asian students.</p>

<p>@bethievt
Congratulations to your son for seeing past the predominant trends in this country. But of course you can point out exceptions and there are many many exceptions for whom HYPS and the other top research universities are not the proper place. But you must admit that these institutions are widely and internationally renowned and considered by MOST to be the best. </p>

<p>As an aside on LAC's, asians have not totally ignored liberal arts colleges. Among my high school friends, (many of whom were asian, and most of whom ended up at top universities) most of us did consider liberal arts colleges, but most of us also ended up deciding that they were not right for us. Some did end up at liberal arts colleges though. Personally I had an incredibly difficult time deciding between Swarthmore and Penn, but eventually made my decision.
Someone cited 13% or 17% i'm not sure, as the percentage of asians at Amherst, and even that is disproportionate compared to the population at large.
Another reason I think for the asian preference of name brand universities over liberal arts college is precisely the fact that it IS a name brand university. If you are conducting business in asia it is a great advantage to have been credentialed by a university that has international renown regardless of the actual quality of undergraduate education received.
There is also definitely an element of reputation to it. I know this affected my parent's thoughts on college and am quite confident it affects most parents' decisions. Most immigrant families in America have extended families still in Asia to whom they must explain where there child is going to college. Personally, my grandparents were very adamant on me going to a school that they had heard of, same with my aunts and uncles, all of whom called from China to weigh in on the topic.
A final point on asians and LACs. my parents and their friends are CONSTANTLY talking about college. College is what the talk about, I would estimate 70% of the time. And so when it came time for me to research colleges, they didn't bother looking at many brochures or websites, instead they would go to their extended network of friends and ask them about where their kids were giong to school, how they liked it etc. etc. If there was no precedent for someone's child going to a certain university, they started out biased against it. So there was definitely some community aspects in setting the range of universities which were preferable.</p>

<p>@epiphany

[quote]
I teach them one-on-one (thus also get to know their parents well), I counsel them, I advise them, I listen to them in-person (not cyber-space), I lived in one of those Asian countries, my family has continued its social relationships with Asians from that time to the present, Chinese- and Korean-American students are both daughters' best friends & I know their families & those families' friends well, daughters' school had large supply of the well-educated, ambitious, competitive version of American Asians (not necessarily more competitive than Caucasian students, but as competitive -- just more narrow in what was an "acceptable" college admission & what was not), they are a large part of our orchestra & in making orchestral scholarship decisions I get to know the families well (part of my job to do so), etc.

[/quote]

That sounds wonderful. If so then how can you say this.

[quote]

Some of the aforementioned threads reinforce the "all or nothing" mentality of many of these parents, whether born here or born overseas. It's HYP/MIT/S/UCBerkeley or nothing; it's My Student Gets Admitted At All Costs (& whether or not he or she likes the school, belongs there, etc.) or nothing. Either my student has reached some fantasy "absolute" bar of qualification (doesn't exist -- everything's relative now, or hasn't anybody noticed?), or my student has been discriminated against, vs. less-worthy students of diff. ethnicities.

[/quote]

Have you actually met anyone like this? Actually as bad as all that and the stereotype make appear? I highly doubt it. As I said before, few parents are as bad as they're kid's will make them out to be. For the most part it's all just a game of misery poker.
Your suggestion in post #91 is spot on though. Kudos.</p>

<p>And finally, does anyone else think the exercies done by Reider described at the end of the article is ludicrous, unfair, and spin worthy of a congressional sex scandal a month before mid-term elections?</p>

99

<p>
[quote]
FYI: Civil Rights Complaints by Asian Americans </p>

<p>A recent report by the General Accounting Office (G A O) found that complaint to the The U.S. Education Department's Office for Civil Rights brought by Asian Americans than those from those brought by other minority groups. A higher proportion of complaints by Asian Americans reviewed by the GAO concerned college-admissions issues. College-admissions cases typically take longer to resolve. (Seven of the thriteen cases reviewed by the GAO took 26 or more months to be resolved.)</p>

<p>The O.C.R. also found Asian Americans' complaints to be valid more often than cases brought by other groups.</p>

<p>The civil-rights office has made changes to speed up its investigations and reviews andreduced its backlog of cases.</p>

<p>Sources:
General Accounting Office report on Education Department investigations of civil-rights complaints by Asian-American students.
Mary Geraghty "U.S. Lags in Resolving Bias Complaints by Asian Americans" The Chronicle of Higher Education

[/quote]
</p>

<p>One problem with lifting quotations from the internet that are not the original source is that salient facts might be ... left out. Since I believe that the omission of the date was ... merely accdiental, allow me to add a few comments. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>The "recent" report by the General Accounting Office was dated December 11, 1995</p></li>
<li><p>While there were indeed 13 cases discussed in the report, the nature of the claims as well as the identity of the schools from which where the complaints originated might NOT be exactly what one would have on his or mind. Would we not expect a few Ivies next to the sole case at MIT? Are the UC Schools really bastions of "Asian" discrimination? </p></li>
</ol>

<p>I guess that statistics are indeed misleading.</p>

<hr>

<p>List of cases: </p>

<p>University of California at Berkeley, Boalt Hall (Case No.10-90-6001)
University of California at Los Angeles Graduate Schools (Case
No. 09-89-6004)
UCLA Undergraduate Schools (Case No. 09-89-6004)
City University of New York, York College (Case No. 02-92-2084)
Santa Clara University (Case No. 09-93-2027)
University of California at San Diego (Case No. 09-92-2002)
University of Texas Law School (Case No. 06-93-2005)
University of California at Berkeley School of Optometry (Case
No. 10-88-2201)
University of Hawaii at Manoa (Case No. 10-92-2066)
University of California at Davis School of Medicine (Case No.
09-92-2015)
University of California at Berkeley Undergraduate Schools (Case
No. 09-89-2099)
University of Wisconsin at Madison (Case Nos. 05-91-2062 and
05-92-2155)
Massachusetts Institute of Technology (Case No. 01-92-8083)</p>

100

<p>Here is what I think colleges do:</p>

<p>Most will just admit everyone who has the basic scores and stats</p>

<p>The top ones will cut out every applicant who is unqualified, or does not have enough stuff to be admitted. After they get the number of applicants down to a certain number, it is still more kids than they can accept, but enough so htey can pick and choose who they take. First they will take recruited athletes, legacies and children of big donors, children of high profile people, and top of hte top amazing students. Then they are left with maybe 1/2-2/3 of the class(atleast) where they then mold it based on interest, race, gender, personality, etc. This is where AA really takes place. I doubt Harvard would take a 3.0 1800 african american, but one with closer to a 3.7 and 2100 has a solid chance. This is also where Asians need to beat eachother out becasue, if a college can prevent it, they do not want more than 25% of any race besides white (because they are the majority in the country). </p>

<p>Also, Asians do not push their kids to go to HYPSM, they push their kids to go to the most prestigeous and academically challenging school the child can get into. If the student has stats for HYPSM, a parent willl, and probably should, encourage the student to apply to one, if not all, of them. There is no reason to tell a phenominal child "It is perfectly fine to go to CC then state U because you feel most comfortable taking that route". As parents they should push their kids to settle for nothing less than the best. Asian parents (in general) will push good study habits on their children and also have them play instruments for disipline, and do other activities of the sort. The culture emphasizes academics over all else. That is why China and India are beating us in numbers of engineers. </p>

<p>How come noone says that top colleges are full of Jews. Last time I checked, a huge number of smart white people over time were Jewish. Guess because they are white noone notices.</p>