College Costs: How High Would You Go?

Parents Forum
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<p>
[quote]
At a public school, the student is of necessity a cog in a machine.

[/quote]

This is a very negative comment and I really disagree with it. Why would it be necessary for such a student to be a "cog"? Can these students not also thrive, grow and distinguish themselves? Is there less hand-holding at a large university, either public or private, than there is at a small LAC? Probably. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. In fact I might contend that it is more like the real world.</p>

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<p>LKF, when the cog-like features affect everything from counseling to course registration to the quality of internships and "abroad" experiences, it's something to consider. Please keep in mind that my better half has worked at UCLA for more than a quarter of a century and we know both its strengths and its weaknesses. But, hey, if you're looking for a college experience that mimics the "real world" in as many dimensions as possible, it's likely that you have different expectations out of the experience than I do.</p>

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<p>I think "cog" is unfair, too. For good and bad, I think my S's experience at a very good private is not that different from mine at a very good public. I doubt either one has a "200 student English class", for one. At least, neither of us has run into one.</p>

<p>perhaps being in a very well run Honors Program at a Top 25 University is not the norm in public schools, but I had great advising and many professors who knew my name, not to mention small discussion based classes. And that's my point--the norm means nothing when discussing any one school.</p>

<p>For both my S and myself, some effort is/was required to utilize the resources to the best results, but a great, in-depth education is/was available for both of us.</p>

<p>My D went to a good LAC. I think all of us with our different schools got great educations. There are definitely difference in quality between some schools and others, but the difference is not public/private and not large/small. High quality comes from a general level of top-rate academics paired with academically prepared and committed students. You can find that in any type of school, and you can find a different result in any kind of school.</p>

<p>I work at a small, private LAC. I can state without reservation that few CC parents would send their kids there. The students are by and large under-prepared for post-secondary education (4-digit SATS, old style, are few and far between.) The school has few resources; most classes are taught by adjuncts (like me!:)) Most students work overly long hours to stay there, and conditions in housing and other areas of the campus would be deemed unsuitable by many here. Few graduate in four years. Many don't graduate at all.</p>

<p>However, it's the right place for lots of the students, and every success means a lot to us.</p>

<p>my point is, though, you know nothing about how 'good' a school is by declaring it an LAC or a research University, a large school or a small school, a public or a private. Sweeping generalities like calling students "cogs" quickly become meaningless.</p>

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<p>Garland, I just want you to know, I agree with your well-written post. ;)</p>

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<p>Garland, I think it's great that the LAC in question has you working there!</p>

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<p>TheDad,</p>

<p>I'm not referring to LACs as the overwhelming majority of LACs are private - and there arn't enough public LACs to make an accurate comparison.</p>

<p>I completely disagree with your statement about lesser privates being better than lesser publics. I would like you to justify to anyone what makes a school like Boston University (private) more nurturing than University of Pittsburg. I can already see that this won't happen. Keep in mind, BU's tuition is 33,000 a year vs. 10,000(instate)/20,000(oos) at pitt. </p>

<p>What about Clemson and Southern Methodist University? What about Northeastern and UMass? Dayton and University of New Hampshire? These are all "middle of the pack" schools, yet in every case, the only thing that I can see thats any different between these schools is location and tuition. Private schools are not a nexus of personal care...don't let PTA moms who havn't been in college for 30 years convince you otherwise. </p>

<p>The way I figure it, the with the $20,000 you save in tuition, you can hire a personal concierage - let her nurture you (and make restaurant reservations for you too!).</p>

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<p>Have to agree with Jags here. Our kids have friends at Rutgers, a couple of the SUNY's, U MD (good publics but not the UVA's or Michigans of the world) and their experiences have been SIGNIFICANTLY less marred by bureaucracy than the kids who attend BU, GW, NYU, just to name a few privates.</p>

<p>Want to change majors at BU? Hope you're got a lot of patience. Problem in your dorm at NYU? God help you. Need fellowship advice at GW (unless it's one of the well-known ones....) better go online and start googling.</p>

<p>Dad-- these are all private schools at the top of the food-chain tuition wise. They charge top dollar; they invest in a couple of academic superstars in a few departments (or their B-schools which are cash cows if you hire a couple of hot professors) where they're making a real splash, and if you're an undergrad majoring in sociology or classics or one of the departments which isn't on someone's "hit list" as a top favorite, for my money.... head to Rutgers or UMD.</p>

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<p>blossom,</p>

<p>thanks for agreeing with me</p>

<p>listen - if you want to go to a LAC for all means go for it. its not a public vs. privated debate - its a "whichever is the best one i get into" debate.</p>

<p>as for universities (and i mean national ones - i could care less about a monmouth or a providence) you'll find, unless you can get into a harvard esque school, that the publics are the best value (esp. if ur instate in va, mi, ca, nc, or wi). of course i'm biased - i go to virginia. but in the samme breath, had i gotten into yale or harvard or princeton - i'd be ther ein a heartbeat over uva. However, Penn? Cornell? Vanderbilt? as far as i can tell - no advantage over a UVa or Michigan-esque school.</p>

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<p>my two cents worth (everyone has their own take on this) -
My DS is currently at Univ of Toronto, which costs about $25K per year for a US student. He was an honors student all through hs, good scores, good EC's etc etc.
As we started the college search we went to DC and visited the usual suspects there. He loved GW but I saw the price tag and almost passed out. It is just over $50K per year!! He also was interested in NYU.
We kept looking around, visited Rutgers, which he liked and it became the proverbial "love thy safety" school - they accepted him in Nov and gave him merit S, which would make it the same price as UMass, our state school, which interested neither of us. Continued the hunt and went on up to Toronto, and he liked what he saw.
When it came time to do applications, I had to ask this bright kid, how do you justify the big dollars at GW or NYU when Toronto is half as much??? and IMHO UofT is a better school. Toronto is a great city for students and the school has a beautiful campus. Also applied to Pitt, UMich, Case Western (big merit$$$), McGill - all reasonable money. All of this went against the grain at his small private school where most kids go on to LAC's, but he preferred a city school.
I promised myself he would graduate with no student loans, and he came to understand the freedom that would give him in 4 years. After 13 years of private school, I couldn't promise (or afford) GW, but that fact made us look hard at the VALUE of the schools.
He loves UofT, its scope, its diversity, the city, and his residential college. It is personal, nurturing, because it sets itself up that way for freshmen. He has two courses with only 25 students in each. I can pay for the whole thing, no debts at the end. Happy kid, happy Mom.</p>

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<p>Jags, I don't believe I said that I think the lesser privates are better than the lesser publics, for I certainly don't believe that. I'm not sure where my cut-off line is but I'd know it when I saw it...though you and I may disagree on where that line is. Di gus. </p>

<p>My personal interests don't include a Boston U vs. Pitt., though I'd certainly stick my oar in if a parent requested my opinion. As for Northeastern, a parent did ask my opinion a few months back and I looked at the student's list and the student's criteria and imo Northeastern was not only a valid choice but the best. I would not say that for every student but neither would I recommend UCLA/Virginia or Smith/Wellesley for every student. </p>

<p>I'll go along with the proposition that some schools present more "value" for the buck than others. Where it gets tricky for me is weighing proportional value vs. absolute value. In D's case, the UC's presented a good proportional value but for her and for us, there were options where we perceived an increment in absolute value in some choices that led to the UC's not even being applied to.</p>

<p>So much depends on the student. And there are a vast number of students for whom the choice really won't matter...they won't get much more out of one school over another. I'm interested in the cases where a student <em>will</em> get more out of one school than another and why. And I'm somewhere between mystified and eye-rolling at those who suggest, in so many words, that a college education is no different than acquiring consumer electronics and, hey, if you can save a few bucks at your local big box store than go for it.</p>

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<p>Perhaps it is not so much that some of us equate college with consumer electronics, but that we don't all have the luxury of considering every option out there, even if our student would get marginally more out of the more expensive experience. Reference the purse analogy starting around post #90! </p>

<p>Anyway, one size doesn't fit all, as TheDad mentioned. Some swear by small private LAC's. Some will be happier at a big school, or a public university, or whatever. I just really don't believe that students who don't choose small private LAC's are cogs in the machine who cannot develop their potential. That's pretty harsh, and just not true.</p>

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<p>Some things may be harsh and still be true, though I suppose one can tie antlers to a pig and call it a deer. One datum: unless one is both careful and lucky, it is very easy to have to take more than four years to graduate from a UC, simply because of the vagaries of course offerings & scheduling. For a more complete cog-in-the-machine experience, try completing a degree at a Cal State. And this is in one of the <em>better</em> state systems. </p>

<p>And my argument isn't about "marginally more." The difference in my D's case included undergraduate research & publication opportunities, quality of performing arts opportunities in her specialties, all classes, including discussion sections, being taught by professors, small classes, with most under 20, superior advising, to the point where two department chairs are advisors for her majors, an internship paid for by the college for every student, and a staggering list of study-abroad/away options which, in comparison, make those available through our flagship state schools look limited and which she has taken full advantage of. Even the length of her internship...5-1/2 months vs. 10 weeks...gave her a much better experience. Are any of those things necessary to completing a college education? No. Individually and in aggregate to they provide a much richer set of intellectual experiences? Yep.</p>

<p>Believe me, I thoroughly understand that some can't afford options. We're doing so in a way that would make some folks turn pale. But that doesn't mean the constrained option is good...what else is new? I don't know much about purses so I'll switch to cars: at one time, there were people who could afford to buy only a used Yugo. Doesn't mean that was a good choice.</p>

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<p>There is a difference in the college experience between Large State U and LAC. My cousin left her graduation ceremony in the football stadium at UNC with droves of other students because it was too hot and they were bored. Her diploma would be mailed to her in June so what was the point. </p>

<p>My wife however had the Chair of the Religion dept at W&M speak about her personally in very specific terms as he handed her the diploma. </p>

<p>Very different experiences for both sets of parents of each student. Does this mean one is "better"? No, my cousin went and partied with her KD sisters and had a great day. My father in law thought all the money he paid was entirely worth it.</p>

<p>Point is the key is matching the right college experience with the right student. If this is done then most any price would be worth it to the parents. If it is wrong, free tuition would be too much to pay.</p>

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<p>Spikemom, UofT sounds ideal for a kid who wants the city environment. Did they offer a good FA package for your S?</p>

<p>I started another thread about a friend of mine whose D is heartbroken that her #1 choice, Northeastern, now seems out of reach financially (total yearly cost there is about $40k). She also wants an urban college. She lives upstate NY and Toronto might be of interest to her, and I see they have extended their application deadline to April 1. Her family EFC is only 12k.</p>

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<p>UofT doesn't offer aid to international students. To me, it is a great deal because the international cost is $25K for tuition, room and board, but if you need to get the cost down below that, it's not a good choice.</p>

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<p>DD has been accepted to McGill and, like UofT, costs are reasonable compared to U.S. privates and even OOS publics. Note that American students can work on campus or off (although for off campus one must get a permit, which takes time and $). Montreal is a fabulous city, while also being quite affordable when compared to major U.S. cities.</p>

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<p>Cars: BMW > Ford > Yugo (all provide transportation from A to B)
Purses: Hermes > Coach > Target (all provide a pouch for essentials)</p>

<p>Top end yields more style points and makes the user feel good about themselves, but in the end, all do the same job. I do realize that this does not correlate directly to colleges, but you see the point. Maybe you want a small car or a big SUV. Maybe you want a small clutch bag or a big tote. You can get what you want in all price ranges. </p>

<p>I guess if the BMW is the only car that fits in your garage, you have to go with that. If the Hermes bag is the only one that fits with your outfit, there's your answer. </p>

<p>It's great that you feel good about your daughter's college experience, TheDad, but others with non-private and/or non-LAC experiences feel good about them too. Luckily, each offers different plusses to fit different students' needs. I promise you that I am not tying antlers onto the public university pig and calling it a an private LAC deer. :) I think they may just be different animals.</p>

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<p>TheDad,</p>

<p>when you make comments regarding middle of the pack publics such as</p>

<p>"But beyond that group [referring to mich, uva, etc.], you start getting into lots of asterisks and footnotes."</p>

<p>in reference to the quality of them as you move down the list, that suggest to me that you favor the private schools for which they compete. that is why i gave plenty of examples of public and private schools which are "in the middle" to show that the private schools at that level are no better than the publics. I've already pointed out, several times, that the top 25 schools in the country are mostly private. However, I don't think that the public schools which are in that group offer an education which you innaccurately described as </p>

<p>"At a public school, the student is of necessity a cog in a machine."</p>

<p>vs. another innaccurate assumption of</p>

<p>"At the private schools, there tends to be more of a "how can we help you develop your potential along the lines you want" attitude."</p>

<p>You seem to try to prove your point by comparing a school like Brown to a school like ASU. Well of course Brown is going to be more "nurturing" (whatever that means...) than ASU...Brown just has much more resources. However, UVa, UCLA, Michigan, Berkeley, UNC, etc. also have plenty of resources to go around. They wouldn't be top schools if they didn't. Now if you want to compare Monmouth University to Queens College - I have to give it to Queens College...its cheaper because its public...and its no "less nurturuing" than Monmouth.</p>

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<p>Son #2 has no debt from a state university honors college and now is coming up with a list of law schools he will apply to next fall. He has a very high GPA so he knows his LSAT score will bear great weight regarding which law school will accept him. No debt (versus debt at the private university where he could have attended) equals more choices ultimately for law school versus undergraduate debt plus law school debt = Uncle!</p>

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<p>I have to say, TheDad, that UofT offers all of those advantages you list as being exclusive to private universities. As a first semester freshman, one of his profs (in a class of 25) was the former Canadian Ambassador to NATO. Advising, tutoring are available in his residential college. His college (not the university - his college) has its own new state of the art theater, and its own library. His dorm has about 20 in it, there are six on his floor (and one is the don) and he shares a bathroom with only two other guys. International study options galore. This isn't a Yugo, it isn't a Chevy - I am so impressed by this school, I can't tell you.</p>