<p>Lonestardad, thanks for sharing your son's debt free education! Don't forget to come back and share where he gets in. Good luck to him...he sounds like he is in a great situation. Do law schools ask your financial picture? Do you know if it is a part of their admissions decisions?</p>
<p>THis issue of money is a highly sensitive issue, and I encourage anyone with access to the Wall Street Journal to read the page D1 article today (3/20). </p>
<p>When my son was applying to schools I told him money should not be an issue, and that we would try to accomodate even the most expensive school if it was the correct fit. But I also used the process to educate him on exactly how much $44,000 (for example) is in the grand scheme of things. We are in the difficult position of not being eligible for aid.</p>
<p>My concern is that kids (and in some cases parents) make the financial decision about school with a bit of denial, or avoidance, about what lay down the road in terms of loans, debt burden, etc., at a time when a kid is trying to start a career. This is made more acute when a kid's goal is to become a teacher, researcher, or other earner for whom the financial rewards are relatively modest (relative to, say a Wall Street staffer) , and in many the eventual income is completely inconsistent with the debt taken on.</p>
<p>To wit, in today's Journal article a woman is quoted as saying "I try not to think about it (the loans) too often...it's very scary, and it's very depressing to me. I know I may never be able to afford a house, ever." </p>
<p>This post is not intended to scare, but I encourage parents grappling with this issue to roll the clock forward 4 years later, the diploma is in hand, along with a wad full of loan documentation which might take years to pay off. </p>
<p>College has a large investment component to it. I encourage everyone to project out - with candor and some accuracy - the monthly cost of carrying the debt from college. It might provide some clarity surrounding the public vs. private debate, for example.</p>
<p>BTW, I am NOT a shill for public colleges. But having seen kids really suffer under debt loads, the magnitude of which they did not have the maturity to understand when they made the decisions that resulted in taking that debt on, simply calls for alot of thought during the decision process.</p>
<p>hvccgolf, well said. BTW, my son attends an OOS public U. The problem is that many public Us are charging over 30,000 for OOS students to attend too.</p>
<p>hvcc, you make some great points here. My own S started from the point of view, "I work to get into the college, you pay for it." I don't know where he got that attitude from, certainly not me or my husband, because we are definitely not rich. I pointed out how foolish he would be to graduate with huge debt, especially when he wants to go on to law school. We told him how much we could contribute, and I worked with him to idenitfy schools of interest that also provided good merit aid. I also insisted that he apply to at least one State U for a financial safety. Although he got accepted to and liked SUNY Geneseo, a top school in the SUNY system, he did managed to get a good merit award from Tulane, one that put it within our contribution range. I had to nix his dream of Berkeley, because the OOS cost, combined with virtually no aid, was prohibitive to us. He wants to go to law school afterwards, and I told him flat out, you need to be as debt free as possible before law school, because it costs a ton.</p>
<p>I think that as parents, if cost is an issue, we need to be unflinchingly honest with our kids as to what it's like to start out in the working world with crushing debt, or even to have parents burdened in their retirement years with crushing debt. It's not just an abstract. And there IS a happy medium between saying, "Cost is no obligation, take out loans," and "you'll go to the cheapest state or CC possible."</p>
<p>p.s. nem - about $40k for OOS at Berkeley!</p>
<p>hvcc and moonmaid, your points on debt are just where I am coming from. I had some student loans myself (minor compared to what some kids have now) and they were an albatross. The idea of being 22 years old and owing close to $100,000 makes no sense to me. For a variety of reasons we are not eligible for aid but I have limited personal resources for my DS. Like moonmaid's son, DS will probably choose law school or other grad school after his BA. His interest is in Political science, maybe public administration or diplomacy. As a parent I've spent the last 19 years trying to create options for him. If I let him take on that debt, I would be closing down a lot of his options. If he and I could agree on a school that would fit my budget, he could graduate free and clear. I showed him in dollars the cost of taking out loans, and it was clear to him that a GW or NYU just didn't make sense.
He received merit aid at one private university that brought it within my budget, but preferred Univ of Toronto. It has turned out to be an excellent decision, a really good fit. I can afford it, and I can afford for him to do at least one and probably two overseas sessions. And if my luck holds, I may be able to help a bit with grad school.</p>
<p>spike and moon - it's also interesting that the issue of aid comes into the discussion in a big way. Those that don't expect aid really feel the brunt of the cost issue at a private school, or public OOS, etc. Those that will get alot of aid, interestingly, have MORE latitude to decide between public and private. Those wealthy enough to not worry about the private cost, well, they don;t have to worry about it. </p>
<p>I've posted elsehwhere about what I call the "value proposition" of higher education, and I feel that it is "broken" in the sense it is very hard to justify the cost of private colleges which have grown tuition at twice the rate of inflation for several decades now. I got some very spirited "pro and con" posts on that issue but frankly, absent aid, I cannot justify spending $40K+ on college, not with 2 more younger kids coming up behind my senior (high school).</p>
<p>My S will likely be at Penn State in the fall (in state) which , at about $22K all-in, is relatively expensive vs other state schools. We like the school and are pleased with this decision, but I'm also glad with the economics of the decision.</p>
<p>This whole financial issue is a very personal one. I hope everyone finds their way through it OK.</p>
<p>I think several thinks are causing the sticker shock/ cost-resources mismatch problems for us and are reflections of larger issues:</p>
<ul>
<li><p>the ENORMOUS cost of college, which seems so much larger than one could possibley imagine even as a successful person!</p></li>
<li><p>our lack of WEALTH versus INCOME-- something that illustrates the CLASS issues involved that are not often talked about... we have decent income, but are both first generation college grads and even first generation HS grads... so no one helped us ever with down payments for a house, car, anything... I help support my parents... other folks in our income bracket often inherit wealth or have more equity because they had a down payment gift, parents paid for a wedding or vacations or kids' summer camps or religious schools... I'm NOT whining... we are proud of our accomplishments and independence and feel privileged and lucky... but there is and never has been any margin of error nor any safety net... </p></li>
</ul>
<p>--The colleges seem to only take into account CURRENT INCOME and not past history (this is related to the wealth point above). In addition to family and class issues, why do we have high income and almost no savings? (again, no whining, just an example!) Living on air so we could serve the poor for many, many years... we scrimped and saved for a house we bought with every penny we had saved in western NY in '87when interest rates were high... when we sold it in 2000, 13 years later, WE had to bring $10,000 to the closing to sell it because the market had fallen ... and used every other penny of savings to move to the DC area where we bought a modest house in what others considered the sketchy side of a good school district... and then started saving all over again... and then spent tons on experts for our special needs son... and the "good school district" failed the younger son... so high private school tuition... and twice in the past H has been unemployed for a year ... </p>
<p>And I set this all out (without whining I hope!) to the colleges and have not gotten any financial aid (which I understand because there are more needy people out there). </p>
<p>Somehow I thought there was a financial niche for folks like us...</p>
<p>silversenior, I hear you. Many years ago, we decided that I would concentrate on raising the kids and work from home. My freelance income has been up and down and took a huge hit after 9/11. My husband is a chef; while his icome is decent, it is not astronomical, especially given the high cost of living in the NY metro area. If I had continued with my work as a researcher in an investment bank many years ago, I'd have a huge 401k, a vested retirement account and a lot of money for my kids college. I'd also have missed so much in my children's lives. It was worth being there for the plays, the concerts, the school trips and for being a class parent or going sledding with the kids and the dog on a snow day, or swimming in the river on a hot afternoon. My kids had some ADD-related issues, and my oldest has dysgraphia, which our small somewhat provincial public school district had trouble dealing with. I had to advocate for him and make sure he got the help he needed. If I hadn't been there for him (and the other two), he may not have been as successful in school as he has been.</p>
<p>But none of this translates well in FA applications. We've managed to save only a few thousand for each child, and I knew it would be tough with the oldest. We decided a couple years ago to sell our house at a substantial profit, and move to an area (Central Texas) where we could live on much less. This we are doing this year, after my oldest graduates.</p>
<p>The irony is, the more our income will decrease in the coming years, the better the outcome for our other two will be, FA-wise. Of course, we are now a bit more knowledgable about the college admissions process, and know, for example, what it would take for my daughter to be able to get merit aid at a private school. Luckily Texas has some good public college choices as well. And I am actively looking for work at a university (I have an MLS), which would definitely produce another cost reducing option for my children's college education.</p>
<p>Silversenior,
"Somehow I thought there was a financial niche for folks like us..."</p>
<p>-- I think there is. They're called public schools.</p>
<p>Re public schools: Coming from NYS, we had the advantage that we could go to a public university and still live over 300 miles from home! Here in Maryland there in only one real national level university and it is 10 minutes away... we bought our bicycles virtually on campus ... and the only other metro area is 1/2 an hour away... so you don't have the option of going AWAY to college!</p>
<p>I also don't think the public universities are the "middle" niche. Is there really no niche between $46,000 and individualized advising, small classes and one-on-one relationships with professors and a school with 25,000 students and small classes only for honors students or some upper classes for $17,000 (in-state total cost)? I've been trying for several days to talk to someone on the phone at U.Md. and have gotten nothing but answering machines... at all the privates I got a real person right away (again, I understand the different economics, but why nothing in the middle?) It seems to me that given the cost of my younger son's school private school tuition... classes all day, 5 days a week with about 8 kids in each class for $22,000... that college could be offered for about $30-35,000 counting living expenses, higher cost of facilities, faculty but also grants, endowments etc. Over $46,000 just seems like too much to me for 9 months... where does the money go????</p>
<p>silver, You do have Towson, and they do offer smaller classes, but no, it is probably not a nationally recognized prestigious name. Most people don't pay the sticker price of 46,000 for private schools either. Those paying full freight, I believe, are those with efcs equal or greater than the 46,000, and the student is not in the top 25% for that school. I happen to agree with you, that the costs are way out of hand!</p>
<p>I also agree with silver, but with a caveat: I believe that despite the best efforts of the Bush administration to the contrary, if you want a college education, you can get a college education even if you don't happen to have any (or much) money. There are junior colleges. There are cheaper, smaller state colleges and less prestigious state unis where you can work and study and then transfer to the more prestigious big u if that's what you want. It's not easy (and it IS getting harder all the time) but it is still possible. </p>
<p>Now, the problem becomes a bit tougher if you happen to be middle- or lower-middle class and have upper-middle-class desires (not that there is anything wrong with that ;)! ) of a 'going away to school' experience at the big u or the private LAC. There was a time when only the rich sent their kids to the likes of, say, Trinity College, Vassar, Stanford or Pomona. But these days, that kind of education is something the middle and lower-middle class aspires to and is clearly financially unable to pay for without massive debt to parents and student.</p>
<p>katliamom, there was also a time when these so-called elite schools were filled with kids from HS college prep tracks - either from prep schools or the minority of public HS kids in these programs. Their parents could either afford to send them, or they were such high achievers that they were offered full ride scholarships.</p>
<p>Today, the overwhelming majority of HS students are expected to take AP and college prep courses, and do well in them. Most students are carrying huge academic and EC loads as compared to 30 years ago, when only the elite "brianiac" type students would.</p>
<p>We expect our kids to perform up to this level, yet then tell them they are financially excluded from the more expensive institutions. In the meantime, the cost of public colleges and universities continues to rise, and the public institutions are facing huge budget problems, which means they are stretched to the max. This at the same time when college govt loan and grant programs for the middle class have also been severely cut back or eliminated.</p>
<p>Something is not right here, and I'm not sure what the fix is.</p>
<p>A change in the White House would be a start, Moommaid ;)</p>
<p>hey - they're going after Rove now. The door is opening. Maybe we won't have to wait until the next election. : )</p>
<p>Is it possible to restrict the political commentary to the Parent Cafe? I find it frustrating that when I am trying to avoid further pointless political debates, to now find them in the Parent Forum.</p>
<p>Moonmaid hits on an important point which is embedded in the college financial conundrum. She "knows there's a problem" but is not sure what it is. </p>
<p>Part of it is this...The financing of college education has a substantial "socialist" element underlying it. Assume, for example, 3 kids sitting and listening to a lecture at a private college with total costs in excess of $40,000 per yer. The 3 kids have nearly indential academi performance in college, and before that in high school. </p>
<p>Of those 3 kids, one will be a full (or largely full) scholarship due to the financial profile his his/her parents. The second will be paying, say, $20K per year, again due to the financial profile. The third is not eligible for aid and is paying $40,000 - in effect subsidizing the other two. (In reality, endowments and other sources of funding pick up some of this aid, but that's of little comfort to the parents paying the full load.)</p>
<p>The fairness issue surrounding this set of circumstances is for debate among reasonable people. But, clearly, aid is based partly on issues largely unrelated to merit. Those with lots of aid can make a decision between public and private because the costs have been largely equalized, The wealthy don't have to worry about it in any event. The large segment in the middle getting no or little aid, however, is pressed into very difficult choices based on the financials.</p>
<p>sorry sjmom - I inserted the political crack because the dicussion turned to cuts in government funding - not entirely unrelated to the subject matter of high tuition, but off to the cafe I go.</p>
<p>hvccgolf, This is part of the reason my son is attending a university that only hands out institutional grants to 12% of its students. This is a school that is financially doable for me. BTW, there will be one or more posters, more than likely, that will tell you that all 3 are being subsidized b/c the "true cost" is so much more than the sticker price (geez, I don't know how they manage). Well, that's nice, but I still cannot afford the sticker prices of most private and OOS flagship publics. Out of 10 packages we just put 5 aside when my son chose his school b/c they were not affordable IMO (those schools thought otherwise). 5 other schools made themselves possible to attend.</p>
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<p>Me too, but they are on spring break now. Try Thursday morning.</p>