College Costs: How High Would You Go?

Parents Forum
261

<p>I agree with hvccgolf. I refer you to the truth in post #249:</p>

<p>
[quote]
"Somehow I thought there was a financial niche for folks like us..."</p>

<p>-- I think there is. They're called public schools.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It's not the poor who are excluded from elite private schools, it is the middle class. I wonder what will happen when more and more middle class students flock to the state universities? I think the academic level of those state schools would rise because more well qualified students would be saing "no" to all of that debt of private schools (who clearly don't want them enough to make the education affordable) and taking their minds elsewhere. As to what effect this would have on the expensive private schools, I'm not sure. I guess they will depend on the wealthy kid to subsidize the poor kid. Why should the middle class kid be the only one to graduate with crushing debt?</p>

262

<p>lkf, I think there are many middle and upper middle class kids in state schools now b/c of finances. My son did have a few private school options, but others were not doable for us. My son is a middle class kid in state school.</p>

263

<p>Mine too, northeastmom. It wasn't a matter of gaining admission, it was a matter of finances and we were in the position of not being rich enough and not being poor enough either. I guess we have a lot of company! :rolleyes:</p>

264

<p>lkf, I have noticed that many of the middle and upper middle class kids in our community are matriculating to either state schools, or less pretigious private colleges where they are ranked in the top 20%. Years ago, as a group, IMO, they would have gone to many more private colleges than they do today. I have noticed that plenty are going to "lower tier" instate public schools too, and not even applying to our instate flagship.</p>

265

<p>As I was going through the college process last fall, and calling aorund to "compare notes" with friends who were also going through it, I was struck by the resistance to paying private school prices, even among familes who could afford it. </p>

<p>I have no frame of reference to say this resistance is higher than, say, 10 years ago, but anecdotal evidence would support that it is. The "fairness" issue surrounding the allocation of aid is an aggravating factor for those who cannot expect aid. </p>

<p>I also believe that the improving quality of kids matriculating at state schools has become somewhat of a self-fulfilling cycle.....Good students cannot afford private school, so they apply to public schools. The SAT and other statistics improve accordingly, and the school looks increasingly more competitive year-over-year, attracting yet more highly qualified kids. And honors colleges have accelerated this process.</p>

<p>WHen I applied to colleges 30 years ago, Penn State, for example, was everyone's safety school. Today, the admissions standards have risen to the point that kids who used to attend PSU are now being pushed to other less selective state schools. </p>

<p>Of course, demographics have also added to the sheer number of qualified applicants, but at about $22K all-in (in state) PSU looks like a screaming bargain next to Bucknell, Gettysburg, Villanova, and other private schools high on the list of Pennsylvania residents. I'm not suggesting they are the same academically, but a $20K+ differential cannot be ignored.</p>

266

<p>hvccgolf,
"I was struck by the resistance to paying private school prices, even among familes who could afford it."</p>

<p>-- Good point. I might also add that I've read schools themselves say, never in their history have they had so many upper-middle class people applying for financial aid. Their conclusion is people who should be able to afford even private schools are living beyond their means -- and expect others (parents, schools, banks) to make up the difference. Sad fact is, boomers are a generation that's due to inherit the most, and has saved the least. Maybe 'the greatest generation' ought to give their money to anyone but their offspring...</p>

267

<p>"I was struck by the resistance to paying private school prices, even among familes who could afford it."
I think it's hard to tell who can really afford it. And I also think that we can't chalk it all up to boomers living beyond their means. The whole game has changed in the last 10 years. Pensions are dinosaurs and most of us have to save for our own retirement. Health care costs are soaring out of control and so are out-of- pocket expenses for benefits. We're living longer too. So many feel the need to have a pretty big cushion to pay for those 20 or 30 years in retirement. That can make one think twice before spending 200k on education.</p>

268

<p>How are you defining upper middle class? What does "can afford it" mean. Does it me with no suffering or can afford it with a home equity loan?</p>

269

<p>We live in a middle-upper middle class suburb. The vast majority of the kids at our large (3000) high school attend in-state u's. This includes the top students. Of the top 10 academic students in S's class 9 went to a State U and the Val. went to a private only to transfer after one semester to State U. </p>

<p>Most are kids of parents with well-paying jobs but not well paying enough to afford expensive privates (especially if there are siblings who would like to go to college too). And even those few who could afford it often don't chose to go. One of the privates that gets mentioned with great respect here on CC is very close to us and yet I don't know one single kid from our H.S. who has gone there. The price tag is just too enormous for most to consider. </p>

<p>All the parents I know believe their kids (even the high achievers) will get a fine education at a state u and are happy to send them there (obviously they haven't been on CC,lol).<br>
And, most importantly, the kids here WANT to go to the state u's. They are happy to be accepted and attend. I don't know anybody whose kid is mourning the fact that he has been relegated to the academic dungeon of the lowly state U. (like so many I read about here on CC). My kid is a happy high achiever at State U, his first choice school. His second and third choices were also state u's. I guess we are lucky to live in a place where there is no pressure to attend a "name" school.</p>

270

<p>Packmom, Yes, you are very fortunate to live in a state with wonderful public Us. </p>

<p>kirmum, I am sure it is all relative. To a family with an income of under 20,000, a family with an income of 60,000 might be considered upper middle class. I think in the end the definition of pain comes down to the one writing the checks. The schools have one definition of what is affordable, and parents might have another idea in mind. The proof of the pudding is that families with healthy incomes and some home equity, I have noticed, are often going to lower tier colleges with big awards, or more often, going to state schools (and not necessarily only the flagships).</p>

271

<p>
[quote]
"I was struck by the resistance to paying private school prices, even among familes who could afford it."

[/quote]

I notice that too, although there are two extremes in my area. I see quite a few people racking up enormous debt to pay for private colleges simply because their kids got in. But more prevalent, I believe, are those choosing state schools. We all are the "middle" as defined by whoever gives out financial aid! However, even families who buy their kids new cars for their sixteenth birthday very often choose our PA state schools. Clearly those folks who manage to live well don't believe that private colleges are necessary to do so!</p>

272

<p>lkf, I can just ditto what you have noticed as my experience as well.</p>

273

<p>Lots of students with plenty of money go to the state schools in NY. Some of the better ones, such as SUNY Geneseo, are almost as tough to get into as many of the LACs (not the top ones, of course, but the SATs are a little higher than the Skidmore type schools.) Geneseo only admits 41% of its applicants, and its average SATs are in the mid-600s, which may actually be higher than some of the well-regarded LACs that don't require SATs anymore.</p>

<p>Having said that, I don't think the experience at Geneseo is the same as at Skidmore. In one, the students are probably more on their own, to succeed or not, while in the other (I would hope,) there are lots of people there for the kids. I am sure you know, different kids, different needs. </p>

<p>And even out of state tuition at Geneseo is much less than at a small private, (about 20K,) but I don't know if they have an Honor's Program for that really top student.</p>

274

<p>I spoke about this on another thread I think... when we talk about "class" we often conflate income and wealth. </p>

<p>We are definitely upper middle class by virtue of our past several year's income. But we are quite different from people who were born into upper middle or upper class (or even middle class) families.</p>

<p>I expect my example is typical of many of us who are middle/upper middle class:
Childhood: parents without HS or college education, rental apartment, fought tooth and nail to get out of government subsidized and blue collar life. Went to good quality urban HS, benefitted (let's be honest here) from de facto segregation by living in white, jewish just barely out of working class neighborhood where education was be all and end all of life for kids.
College: 4 years on full scholarship, 5th year all loans (it ws MIT, OK?!)
Law school: some scholarship, mostly loans
early adulthood- paying off student loans, rural poverty law, renting, marrying, having first child, saving for a downpayment, puchasing a home with 5% down at 10.5% in 1989 (remember those days?), started saving again, sometime around then made lst student loan payment, had second job, one spouse lost job in 95 when federal legal services restricted and reduced, took paycut when found new job.
later adulthood: moved to DC, lost all equity and all savings to do so... $10,000 to pay off mortgage after 13 years cuz market tanked in western NY, rest went to downpayment in DC burb. started saving AGAIN. this time making retirement a priority, since we were now well into our 40's...forced ourselves to also put some money into state pre-paid tuition program, but could only do 2 years for older son... plus other individual family financial issues probably less typical... </p>

<p>compare to family who has help accumulating wealth... downpayment, fund for children starting from birth...</p>

<p>So WHEN was I supposed to be able to save $$$ for college? (Again, I use me just as an example!) </p>

<p>I think, also, colleges still use an old school model of assuming that earning potential always goes up and assets increase... our experience has been that jobs are never stable, that funding for salaries comes and goes, that assets are here one day and gone another, that the day after we are stable and secure one of us is diagnosed with a horrible disease (he's doing OK now, knock on wood) or injured or needs surgery or the insurance company stops covering a needed medication... </p>

<p>And what was I thinking, having my two boys 5 academic years apart???? I'll have to do this all over again! I'm planning the revolution now....</p>

275

<p>Adgal, Geneseo does have an Honors program, and it is quite selective. Only twenty students are admitted into it each year, and only ten of them are freshmen.</p>

<p>Geneseo is such a small school (about 5300 students) that I think personal attention actually might be pretty good. When I toured the school with my S (he was admitted, but it is not his first choice), the students spoke about the small class size and how accessible their professors were.</p>

<p>I have a dear friend (a teacher) whose son attended prep school on a special program at a very low cost. He then had his heart set on Bard for college. She went into significant debt to send him there. It was completely the wrong fit for him and he ended up leaving after his first year and drifted a bit. You would have thought that a kid like him (artistic, sensitive, literary) would have thrived in that environment, but he didn't. Would he have been more comfortable in a small public like Geneseo with other smart middle class kids? Hard to say. But in his case the personal attention was not worth the cost.</p>

276

<p>silversenior, I can relate to most of what you wrote, and our interest rate in the early 80s was 12.75%!</p>

277

<p>LOL, nem - we thought we got a big bargain on our starter house in 1989 at 10%!</p>

<p>And we sold that house at a $10k loss. :(</p>

278

<p>"Geneseo does have an Honors program"</p>

<p>I'm taking quite an interest in the SUNYs these days, especially Geneseo. My double-Ivy-educated sister's about to have her first baby, in NYC, on a saving-the-world salary. I keep telling her that the public colleges in NY are getting better and better! Her husband went to SUNY Albany and he is doing just fine.</p>

279

<p>Friends of ours sold their condo at a 60,000 loss! At least they were able to move to Az from NJ. They probably made up for the loss with lower cost of living in AZ through the years. They sold around 1990.</p>

280

<p>Hanna, I was very impressed with Geneseo. It is light years better than the SUNY New Paltz I attended in the early 80s. The facilities are beautiful and the students seem quite happy to be there. I think it is a huge bargain. The only drawback is its location, which quite frankly is not near much. It's 45 minutes from Rochester, but still over a 5 hour drive from NYC. They are pouring a lot of money into the school to make it the flagship SUNY - they now are referring to it as the SUNY Public Honors School. The new science building is quite amazing.</p>

<p>Your friend might also be encouraged by CUNY's 300-student Macauley Honors College at Hunter College. These students receive a complete 4 year scholarship, including room & board, laptop and travel abroad stipend of $7500. It's a small exclusive LAC within a public. </p>

<p>I'm thinking that many large publics may look to start real Honors programs - elite schools within the big school - as a way of attracting the top students.</p>