And on that point, if it applies to OP’s sport, is there a sense of how much playing time/what role OP will play at each place? Will OP likely ride the bench for a year at the D1 school and be a starter from day one at the D3 (or sport-specific equivalent)? And does it matter to OP?
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I agree with this. Upstate winters are distinct from New England winters. Upstate is like PNW winters, but with more harsh effect. So, heavy on grey and overcast, and heavy on wind, snow, sleet, etc.
New England winters are a different animal and much more to my preference because you can usually see the blue sky above and the sun makes an appearance. That dull grey accumulates in your brain after several weeks and can be a downer.
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Lots of good advice above. IMHO there isn’t really a right or wrong answer. They are very different experiences, but both outstanding in different ways. I always tell people that if you care about what the person who cuts your hair thinks, go Ivy. If you care what top grad schools and hiring partners who pay 6 figures to 22 year old think, it doesn’t really matter. Williams and Amherst are just as good, maybe even better in some circles.
From what I have seen, the athlete networkat the Ivies is no joke. And at least in wrestling Williams is the same. Good chance you will get a leg up with alumni at either place when it comes time to look for a job.
Ithaca isn’t exactly a bit city, but it is the definition of a college town. Between Cornell and Ithaca College a substantial % of the population is either students or others who have ties to campus. So it’s a very different vibe than at Williams. If I was a college student, I would love living there. Actually I would still love to live there if life ever presents that opportunity. As you know, Williams has a lot going for it, but a vibrant off campus scene is not one of them.
My daughter toured Cornell, and it was a hard pass. Way too big, and she hated the thought of huge lecture hall classes potentially taught by grad students. Williams and Amherst (where she ended up) are very similar schools. Small intimate classes from the beginning. Meanwhile, my son loved the Williams coach, but couldn’t handle the thought about spending 4 years on such a small rural campus. It’s very much a personal preference thing.
Fraternities and Sororities are present at Cornell, but as an athlete you probably won’t be dependent on that social scene. The % of athletes is a lot higher at Williams, but the sheer number at Cornell means that the athletes almost have a shadow fraternity/sorority system. They have social mixers with each other, and end up having a lot of athletes from different sports in their social circle.
That may be changing a bit at Cornell, because with few exceptions frosh/soph must live in student housing. In the past it was not required, and most athletes lived together at least the last 3 years, in some sports for all 4 years. IMHO this is a positive change. It isn’t necessarily the main reason, but I think it will lead to the athletes being a bit better integrated socially than they were a few years ago.
If you want Dyson, be sure that you really are being offered that spot. Some coaches will tell you that you can transfer in. Technically that is true but very difficult. I think at least some coaches get a limited number of Dyson admits they can use. You do have to apply to a specific college at Cornell, and depending on which college you may have to apply for a specific major. Lots of Developmental Sociology and Communications majors in the athletic department, because they are the easiest path through. Computer Sci and Dyson both are no joke at Cornell. Lots of brilliant kids, lots of work.
D1 and D3 are different animals. I feel like if you want a healthy balance of academics/social/athletics, D1 may be a tough road. It can vary from sport to sport and team to team, but a lot of the successful D1 athletes I know are pretty singular in their focus. At a minimum you will have a lot of teammates with that mindset, even at Cornell. Usually the off season and in season requirements are going to be higher in D1, even at an Ivy like Cornell.
Also I don’t know where you fit in, a 4 year starter impact player at Williams may not see the field much at all at Cornell (or not, I don’t know your sport). Plusses and minuses to that too. Ask yourself if you are ok being a role player on a bigger team, or if you need to be “the guy” (or girl). Most college athletes, even D3, have been “the guy” on their team since middle school. It’s an adjustment being a roleplayer.
At Williams, your summer employment and internships probably takes priority over your sport. At Cornell, I’m not sure. Something to look into.
Personally I feel like my daughter is having a better overall experience and getting a better education. She knows her professors, and they know her. There isn’t any sitting in the back of the room just going through the motions (which in fairness is kind of how I did college). She is making better connections. Although that is somewhat different for an athlete than a NARP. You will have connections that are outside of the typical Cornell experience.
It is hard to convey how Upstate winters are until you have lived through one. I know more than one kid who kind of broke when they were seeing the sun once a month. Others it doesn’t bother as much. It may depend a bit on where you are coming from, I know TX and CO kids who struggled with this. The CO kid said it was the hardest adjustment he had to make in college. Not Ivy, not D1, but lack of sun. The TX kid took advantage of mental health support on campus to get through.
Think about how you mesh with the team. You will spend A LOT of time with them. It really does become your family. If you don’t feel like this could be your new group of best friends in a year then I would think twice. Also everyone will say don’t go to a school because of the coach. That is true, because they do change, sometimes unexpectedly and abruptly. However, the converse it not true. I would absolutely avoid a program if you don’t like the coach. Unless you join the military, no boss will ever control your life as much as that coach will for the next 4 years.
I’m happy to answer any more specific questions.
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Both great options.
If you want to major in CS, Cornell is better. Awesome department.
If you want to major in Business/Econ, both are good, but I’d give a stong edge to Williams, given lots of finance bros on Wall St, as well as McKinsey business consultants come from Williams.
You will probably get a better education and attention from profs at a D3 Elite Liberal Arts like Williams College than you will at D1 Ivy like Cornell. This is based on size, student-faculty ratio as well as sports commitments.
Williams has a more affluent student body and is more of old-boy network, even without frats/sororities.
Both are outdoorsy, both have gorgeous campuses.
Ithaca is a great small city (30,000 people) with lots to do. WIlliamstown has about 7,500 people and is more remote.
Both colleges are well-resourced. However the endowment per student is higher at Williams, and all that is all focused on undergraduates.
If it were me, I’d go to Williams.
But visting Cornell will give you a good picture. The heart wants what the heart wants. You may find Williams too small, or Cornell too big and impersonal. You can’t go wrong either place.
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I honestly think athletes would like Cornell better
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That’s a generalization that is so broad as to be useless. Every athlete in every sport, with every set of academic and social preferences, would like Cornell better? Doubtful. Pretty sure there’s a higher percentage of recruited athletes at Williams, given the smaller student population and the number of teams they field.
Maybe if you supported your statement with some kind of rationale, it would have some value. But the OP hasn’t commented for almost a month, so hopefully they’ve made their decision by now.
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Why? Williams has an incredibly robust athletics program and the teams are incredibly competitive. Combined with top drawer academics, why the assumption?
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Great summary that would reflect my own personal opinion as well.
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A lower percentage of students receive financial aid at Cornell than at Williams College. Cornell, while very diverse, has a lot of students from affluent backgrounds–certainly more than does tiny Williams College.
Over many decades, I have never met a student or alum of Cornell University who did not love their experience at this Ivy League school, but I have met many who felt their experience to be less than satisfactory at Williams College regardless of the high retention rate.
For a dedicated athlete, the challenges and resources at the larger school with a D-1 program should be exciting. For an athlete who would like to compete in two sports at the collegiate level, D-3 is probably the better choice.
Distinctions between schools with or without a Greek social system is not relevant to student athletes as membership on a college sports team is, socially speaking, quite similar to the experience of being a member of a Greek house.
As others have noted, an athlete’s relationship with the coach and teammates should be considered–with the caveat that coaching changes are not uncommon.
The two school environments are quite different due mostly to size of the student bodies, but membership on an intercollegiate athletic team does make a large school smaller.
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It’s very close in terms of proportion. From 2022-23 CDSs: Cornell total undergrads receiving need based aid was about 49.5%, Williams 51%.
Interesting. My data is from a couple of years ago when the difference was 47% versus 54%.
My point, however, was in response to another’s post that William College has a more affluent student body than does Cornell University.
I definitely did not love it. It was very work hard party hard in the 90s. I think is still is. And classes can be huge. Not to mention it is overcast all the time - I loved staying for summer though. I have plenty of friends that wouldn’t do it over even if their time their was nice enough.
Like everything else, pros and cons to each school but these two are so different, I think most people will prefer one environment or the other.
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Cornell University: Easiest Ivy League school to get into, hardest to get out of.
Agree that my experiences with Cornell–as well as Penn State–students has been unusual in that all claim to have loved their time at the school. (Personally, neither school would be among my top choices.) I know dozens of alums of Cornell (and even more from Penn State) and the universally positive comments are not what I had expected to hear.
Regarding unhappy Williams College students: The take-away was that the school was too small & that those students had not found their friend group/did not fit in socially–as distinguished from academic concerns. Few transferred out–actually none that I recall–because they felt trapped as William College is consistently ranked #1 in the country among LACs and transferring to a school of equal academic caliber would be too difficult.
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Prestige /= academic caliber. The situation you describe is tantamount to being “hoisted by one’s own petard.”
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A huge factor for those of us who know what perpetual overcast does to the mood. This IMO is a big differentiator between New England and Upstate. I don’t know about Williamstown in particular given its location.
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IMO the weather was the single worst thing about Cornell. Central NY is very, very dreary. Very few sunny days.
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I have no skin in this game, but in my experience, the statement that Upstate NY is “very, very dreary with few sunny days” is WAY overstated. For some reason, this myth perpetuates and folks seem to significantly exaggerate the weather in Upstate NY. We have lived all over the East Coast/New England/Upstate NY area, and it’s just not true. To be honest, there are many sunny days in all four seasons in Upstate NY; it’s such a beautiful area! We visited multiple colleges with all 3 of our kids all over the East and NYS and hands down, 2 particular schools in Central NY had the nicest (sunniest) days each (of the many) time we visited, making for bright winter days, and beautiful fall foliage. We’ve spent significant time in MA, and there have been many gloomy days. It’s ridiculous to think there would be significant sun pattern differences between MA and NY. It’s not as if we’re comparing AZ and ME. If a student needs endless sunlight/warm temps to function, it’s safe to say they should be looking at schools in vastly different geographical areas all together (South, Southwest, etc.)
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I too am from upstate NY and also believe that it is a beautiful place. It is pretty dreary at times though Williams would not be wildly different much of the year.
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I didn’t read anybody to say it was every single day of the year. the summers are brutally hot, which requires the sun. The sun shines in the spring and in the winter. But relative to other areas, yes, upstate gets a ton of grey overcast days from late fall to spring. Some of us have actually experienced it over a course of years. Seattle has beautiful sunny and mild weather too that is poorly understood outside the PNW, but I would never say that the weeks and weeks and weeks of grey overcast days is a myth. It’s anything but a myth. Same for upstate. I’ve never known anyone from the area to argue otherwise. And compared to New England, particularly coastal, it has been my considerable experience to find it sunnier during the winter. And I don’t feel like I’m perpetuating a myth in saying any of this. I say it’s quite true.
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I’m a big Cornell fan, and have more ties there than Williams. But I do think this is a real issue. Doing a quick Google search, I found a website with average days of sunshine from 1961-1990. There may be some differences due to climate change, but I’m guessing it’s still ballpark correct. I could have looked for something with Ithaca data, or more current, but tbh this was the first result and it is about as much time as I am willing to devote to this.
Rochester and Buffalo average 1-2 days of sunshine in December and January. Boston, Hartford, NYC average 8-9. That’s a pretty significant difference.
Again, I’m a big Cornell and upstate fan, and have actually casually window shopped Realtor.com in Ithaca (houses are pretty cheap btw). The upstate summers would be a fair tradeoff for the dreary winters for me personally. I LOVE the town. But the dreary winters are real. I have a kid who loves it there maybe 8 months of the year. But has made it clear he would never live there long term, because not seeing the sun for so many days really drains him.
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