College Is So Much Easier Than High School

Parents Forum
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<p>I don’t really understand how all this works. But if it is really hard to get into med school, it seems it is really really hard to get into a MD/PhD program - so I would assume that students would be at the very top of their class, probably setting the curve in the standard premed curriculum. That this particular student wasn’t challenged doesn’t seem to me to prove there is a problem with the level of coursework. I can imagine a student not being challenged, but there aren’t that many, imho who fit this profile for it to be seen as a problem with the coursework.</p>

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<p>Sounds exactly like my daughter.</p>

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<p>In response to question in post no. 89: This was a HS course, not dual enrollment. I would have thought a university would have the ability to let kids take a placement test to demonstrate knowledge. His former classmate, now at MIT, was allowed to take a more difficult course than the one he was assigned. </p>

<p>I can appreciate colleges/universities not wanting freshmen to get in over their heads during a time of much transition, but I would think there would be the option for kids who prove they are up to the challenge.</p>

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<p>There’s nothing new about having less challenging courses aimed at non-majors. At Yale nearly 40 years ago, there were courses popularly known as “rocks for jocks,” “physics for poets,” “nuts and sluts” (a reference that probably would never be used now; it was a sociology course on “deviant behavior”), and others whose names escape me. Similarly, the introductory survey course in English (English 15), was well-known as being a dumping ground for non-humanities types.</p>

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<p>The thing that DS finds easier about MIT than his large suburban high school, is that it is less of a management task. Taking five courses where most of grade is based on a mid-term and a final is sooo much easier than taking seven courses with up to 30 tiny graded assignments per quarter. The paper flurry used to drive him crazy. Now the emphasis is on understanding tough material in depth. It’s a relief!</p>

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<p>I agree emphatically with alh, post #91; but I also agree with geomom, post #105. I think that for a bright and academically engaged student at a “top” school, college tends to be much more congenial (rather than “easier,” exactly). </p>

<p>The emphasis on understanding tough material in depth tends to be much more comfortable for such students than the heavy demands to accomplish a load of shorter, generally less-challenging assignments that are piled up. I have the impression that some high schools are not like this, but even the highly rated ones, such as the one that geomom’s son attended, can feel like this to a strong student. Also, most semesters, it is not necessary to schedule classes that require getting up at 6:15 am or even earlier, and this in itself can make the work more comfortable.</p>

<p>In high school, I think that a student can legitimately have the feeling that no matter how much is accomplished, it is never “enuf” for admission to most “top” schools (to borrow the term used by Ben Golub at Caltech). Even for the students who realize that they do not need to go to a “top” school to have an excellent education, and whose parents are not operating in “special snowflake” mode (Pizzagirl’s term), there is still a certain amount of pressure that results from this situation.</p>

<p>Then, too, many students will find a wider variety of EC’s on offer in college, and will have the opportunity to select groups that fit their interests extremely well. A student who is involved in university research will find that the work moves at the pace of the project itself (often fast), but there is less need to meet deadlines for Intel, Siemens, etc. There might be some pressure to meet grant deadlines, but that’s usually reserved for the faculty members, Ph.D. students, and post-docs.</p>

<p>So altogether, it makes for a happier experience, though not really “easier.”</p>

<p>It is also interesting that there have been times recently when the list of non-sticky threads in the Parents Forum has been topped by this thread and the one about students dropping out of STEM majors because they are “so darn hard.”</p>

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<p>I completely agree. I think it’s wonderful that “lighter fun” courses for non-majors exist – everyone needs a mental break – and in fact I encourage my kids to take some of those because all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy and all of that. Spare me from the usual sanctimony on CC that everyone should be dutifully trudging through the very hardest courses they can possibly stand at all times. </p>

<p>I would also say that personally, one of the classes I learned the most from was a “light” North American Geography course, that was almost a tradition at my college among seniors, since it met once a week from 7 - 10 pm and wasn’t really all that hard. But useful? OMG, terribly useful. Things don’t have to be hard to be worthwhile or useful.</p>

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<p>My D took many AP’s in high school and graduated top ten from a competitive high school. She found her first year at an Ivy (not HPY) to be easier and a great deal more manageable than high school despite jumping into many non-intro courses due to her AP’s. She actually wondered out loud to me first semester about where all the “smart” people were hiding, because the people around her seemed to be having a much harder time. I think that the freedom she had to manage her own time and the lesser non-school-related demands made the difference. The actual number of different classes an honors student has to juggle also goes down from high school - from 7 AP or honors courses to 4 or 5 three or four credit classes. </p>

<p>As she piled on internships, lab research, clubs, social groups and a second major in her later years, she found doing well in her courses to be more challenging, but she still graduated magna cum laude with an honors thesis and double major.</p>

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<p>ucbalumnus, S1 did not take joint-enrolled courses. He placed out of MV, DiffEq, Lin Alg and Discrete Math based without specific placement exams for those courses. (Chicago does a general Calc Placement exam and recommends courses from there).</p>

<p>Chicago has nor formal CS placement process other than they give credit for the old AP CS AB exam. He got CS placement based on a two-hour conversation with Lazlo Babai, who quizzed S, had him explain a few problems on the spot, and had him take a few problems home to complete. </p>

<p>S1 was not a typical freshman in this regard, but he (and we) were really pleased at the flexibility he was granted.</p>

<p>UMD-CP offers lots of pre-matriculation placement exams for math and CS, and we know a number of folks who placed directly into upper level courses as a result.</p>

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<p>Yes. Yes. Yes.
When top students at top schools have told me they find the work “easier” they mean they finally have a majority of “fun” courses. And the courses are fun because they are challenging and interesting.</p>

<p>A college student complaining the work is too easy is just as aggravating to me as a preschooler complaining of boredom.</p>

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<p>I also know someone who took MV in HS at a different school from S1, and was very thankful to have re-taken it at college. Found out at college that what passed for MV at her HS was not close to the real thing.</p>

<p>Based on prior performance and placement results from S1’s school, we were confident that the math he was getting there was the real thing.</p>

<p>Both my kids were SO thankful to be done with the ticky-tacky HS homework assignments. There was very little tolerance for late work and no extra credit allowed, so it always did a number on their grades. I remember S1 calling me the first couple weeks of college and exclaiming, “At last! The homework is relevant!”</p>

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<p>My thoughts exactly. Why do our kids have to kill themselves taking extremely demanding courses all the time? I don’t want my D to be so stressed out that she becomes clinically depressed. There is a high rate of anxiety and depression at elite colleges. I don’t want her to burn out.</p>

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<p>Umm, Google had about 1,000 interns last summer, not 140. 3/1,000 doesn’t sound that good to me, so you must be misinformed.</p>

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<p>I don’t think I would be overly concerned with a college freshman’s opinion of classes after a mere two months in college. Though she may have switched to tougher classes than she started out in, if they are in the fields that she is comfortable and has knowledge in, certainly they might seem easier to her than her challenging high school environment. If she wants to make it more difficult, she can move up even further or increase her load.</p>

<p>My son told me after his Freshman fall semester, that he thought that high school was tougher than his college classes (top private high school, top college). That changed pretty quickly. And I am sure that if her top priority was challenging classes and attending a top CS program to get that golden ticket, your daughter would have chosen CMU. Which I guarantee you, after the entry level classes, she would not think high school was easier, especially in CS, where many students (quite often women) decide that CS classes are far too difficult and end up changing their major. In the end, she may be happier being part of a less rigorous program that allows her time for other activities…like sleep. You never know how it’s going to go from their initial impression. If she’s happy and things are going well for her, that sounds perfect.</p>

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<p>Regarding those with IB diplomas and certificates</p>

<p>In my IB classes, there were 10 diploma students and 12 certificate students. We were a pretty close bunch</p>

<p>I was a Diploma student and out of the ten, one didn’t get a the diploma because she missed an exam due to stress/mismanagement. She is getting along at a state U with a B average or so in Biology. She gave up hope of med school during freshman year when I saw her Spring break or so.</p>

<p>One of my peers (2nd top score out of the 9) went to a top 3 Canadian University, burned out 1st year, switched from Neuroscience to psychology. </p>

<p>My buddy (mid range out of the 9) is doing Chem. Eng is doing great at a Georgia Tech. He has very little difficulty, works hard for it though. I think his high grades come from interest.</p>

<p>The girl who got the top score in IB (38) dropped out of school- burn out to the MAX - everyone saw it coming when she started crying one day in English class in front of the class about how she couldn’t do what she really wanted during senior year. Now taking classes at Community college. </p>

<p>The girl who got 3rd highest score (36) decided that she didn’t want anything to do with her high school peers and nobody has heard from her since graduation.</p>

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<p>My D’s priority was not getting that “golden ticket.” She had to weigh the pros and cons of each college. I have absolutely no doubts that she made the right choice.</p>

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<p>She has been taking CS classes since her freshman year in high school. She loves it! She enjoys doing coding in her spare time. She worked as an intern while in high school at a local research laboratory working on an artificial intelligence project. She has been invited to come back this summer. Her mentor was very impressed with the quality of her work and her programming abilities.</p>

<p>She is part of a special program for women who are majoring in CS or engineering at her college. Her CS faculty mentor (who received a PhD from Harvard) told my husband and I that some of her brightest students are FEMALE. Yes, it’s true that some students decide that entry level CS classes are too difficult, but I don’t agree with your statement implying that it’s usually women. I think that’s an unfair stereotype. There are many reasons why fewer women are choosing to pursue a degree in CS that I won’t go into here. I hope that she will go on to inspire other women to get a CS degree.</p>

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<p>So long as she’s also learning more of the underlying CS theories alongside coding, she’s fine. </p>

<p>Out of curiosity, is she comfortable using/programming in other operating system environments beyond Windows(i.e. Various Linux distributions, System V Unix, BSD, Mac, etc)? </p>

<p>I think one reason why some are giving you some pushback is that in most of the tippytop undergrad CS programs at places such as MIT, CMU, etc…the vast majority of CS majors hardly have any spare time unless they’re geniuses, extremely efficient managers of time & lucky, or sacrifice leisure/sleep. </p>

<p>Women also have to deal with the “geek machismo” in many CS environments IME…though it is much less than it was what female CS major friends experienced even a decade ago in school and the workplace.</p>

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<p>Would that really be true these days, compared to the parents’ generation? When the current parents were in school, an entire CS class probably had to share a single minicomputer with less computing power than a cheap netbook with a limited number of dumb terminals in a computer lab. Waiting for your program to compile and/or waiting for a seat at a terminal in the lab consumed quite a bit of time. Now, a student in a CS course can probably do most of his/her work on his/her own cheap computer anywhere, any time, and upload the result to the designated place to turn it in.</p>

<p>CS courses with programming do take more time than courses that have just lecture, discussion, homework, and tests (e.g. math, CS theory, or many social studies type courses). But the difference probably is not as extreme as it used to be.</p>

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<p>One of our neighbor’s sons graduated from a top 10 CS program. He said it wasn’t that bad. He still had time for ECs and a social life. He is now working at the same research laboratory where my D is interning.</p>

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<p>Yes, my D does her CS projects on her laptop then uploads them.</p>

<p>One of her CS profs actually sent her an e-mail commending her because she always turns in her projects much sooner than anyone else in her class. He has asked her to tutor several boys in her class who are struggling. So much for the statement by busdriver11 that girls tend to drop out because the classes are too hard.</p>

<p>I’ve been impressed with the credentials of the CS professors at her college. Numerous PhDs from places like CMU, MIT, Harvard, Princeton, Cornell, Penn, UC Berkeley, Hopkins and Michigan.</p>

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<p>Not necessarily from what I’ve heard from high school classmates’ parents who are programmers. </p>

<p>Then again, this is extremely variable depending on level of prior experience with CS and whether one intuitively grasps the concepts and translates it into workable code. </p>

<p>There’s also added variables such as kids using different computers, microprocessors, operating systems along with the annoying tendency for lab computers to have buggy software and/or failing hardware at the most inconvenient times which could add further complications to the mix. </p>

<p>This also fails to account for students who coded/compiled/running their assignments in ways which ends up overwriting a core area of a poorly designed operating system to the point the machines no longer boots. A few of us in my CS class managed this and was considered so unusual that even experienced CS profs were bewildered as to the cause.</p>