College people who can vote...

<p>
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People against universal health care don't want it to happen for usually one of these three reasons: tax increase,family member that's a doctor, or the term "socialized" makes them fear a communist/socialist takeover(because we all know that communism and socialism are EVIL).

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<p>Or.... because its a bad idea and will yield worse health care, even if it is worse health care for a greater number of people. :rolleyes: </p>

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1) There will not be a tax increase

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<p>Wait, you really don't think that there will be a tax increase if we institute universal health care? Tell me, is there some country that has universal health care that doesn't have ridiculously high tax rates that I'm not aware of?</p>

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having a system of social welfare isnt evil, and it doesn't trample on individual rights, having Americans pay billions in tax dollars for an unneeded war we dont agree with is.

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<p>There is just so much wrong with that statement I don't even know where to begin. What individual rights are violated by spending money on a war, even if you don't agree with it? And which of those would not be violated by spending money on something that not everyone is going to want to spend their money on (i.e. paying for everyone else's health care)?</p>

<p>I just want to know how universal health care makes health care worse. You hear this, and yet for some reason Canada and England seem to be doing alright health wise...and everyone is covered. At the same time, last time I checked their countries weren't third world now are they? Are the NO doctors now in other countries, because for some reason, I think that there are.</p>

<p>The best thing I think you could come up with is maybe the doctors will now be worse. Is that it? I'm not sure how since I don't think medical school will suddenly change... Doctors make less so less doctors? That's a big maybe, but even so, a doctor just out for money is not a doctor I want(and please don't act like a doctor will now be at the same paycheck of a waitor). Will lines be longer at hospitals? I don't know about you, but the last 3 times I went to the hospital, I waited for over an hour AND my uncle works there! Did I mention I was in the emergency room and everyone else around me waited much longer?</p>

<p>So please, tell me how health care will become worse.</p>

<p>u honestly think this proposed "universal health care" is going to be equal for all people? funny stuff enjoy paying higher taxes so all of our illegal immigrants can mooch off their legal friends</p>

<p>Yeah, I'm not sure how it's not equal for all people since universal health care provides coverage for all.....</p>

<p>And I'm not sure how immigration comes into this. We're not covered under Canada's national health scheme, and if we moved there without taking steps to become citizens, we still wouldn't be. We would be responsible for the medical costs incurred. The same with regards to other countries with universal health care. When I was studying abroad, I had to provide proof of insurance to get my visa (or one of the other necessary documents, they all run together).</p>

<p>Agreements do exist between most of the European countries to agree to cover each other's citizens, but those are only the countries with national health. The idea is that, especially since inter-country travel is so much easier there than it is here, people from France will be covered if they get sick while vacationing in Italy and vice versa. But the agreements don't exist with countries without national health. None of us, if we got sick in a country with national health, would receive free care. What we would receive, depending on the country (but more or less any Western European country and many others), is health care on par with (or better than) that of the United States at a much lower price because we wouldn't have the over-inflated prices charged by privatized hospitals and drug companies who are allowed to charge pretty much whatever they want for medicine here.</p>

<p>No ginny universal health care is bad and is ruining healthcare. Stop making things up like covering other country's people that's crazy.</p>

<p>sorry, I forgot that political machines like combining issues that have nothing to do with each other to confuse the general public. My mistake. I'll try to do better in future ;).</p>

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I just want to know how universal health care makes health care worse. You hear this, and yet for some reason Canada and England seem to be doing alright health wise...and everyone is covered.

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<p>Really? Have you done research on this, or are you just saying that because you don't hear things about UK health care on CNN? </p>

<p><a href="http://society.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,,2098276,00.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://society.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,,2098276,00.html&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/11/ncancer111.xml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/11/ncancer111.xml&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.news-medical.net/?id=24508%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.news-medical.net/?id=24508&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/04/23/nhs23.xml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/04/23/nhs23.xml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>In care you don't want to read those, basically they are about how people have to wait over a year for medical procedures, don't get the drugs they need, and people are banned from hospitals because they smoke, etc.
I could go on with stories (from British newspapers no less) about how crappy the health care is there. </p>

<p>There are many problems with government-run socialized health care. We already have a version of it here - medicare. Ask people on medicare how they like it. </p>

<p>So, problems with government-run health care:</p>

<ul>
<li>mandated procedures will tie doctor's hands as far as treatment (ie. poor patient care</li>
<li>Costs will get out of control (as evidenced by that last article), but people will have by then started thinking of "free" health care of a "right" and therefore it will be imporssible to roll it back.</li>
<li>There will be no more profit motivation or competition any more, so drug companies will have no reason to innovate new drugs, doctors/hospitals have no reason to provide excellent care, etc.</li>
</ul>

<p>Honestly, its not that I think that socialism/communism is "evil", its that I know that it doesn't work as a system of running, well, anything. Check with Plato for what he thinks of it. Socialism always collapses - you can't force people to be equal.</p>

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The best thing I think you could come up with is maybe the doctors will now be worse. Is that it? I'm not sure how since I don't think medical school will suddenly change...

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<p>Or maybe that patient care will be taken from them by the government controlled health agency</p>

<p>Really cause in England you can buy into a private system just like the one we have here.</p>

<p>Doctor shortages and waitlists happen due to other reasons in some of those countries, but lets pretend it is universal health care.</p>

<p>If you can get free physicals and everyone can get physicals</p>

<p>Free medical services would encourage patients to practice preventive medicine and inquire about problems early when treatment will be light; currently, patients often avoid physicals and other preventive measures because of the costs.</p>

<p>So long term less people will need these big procedures.</p>

<p>And btw, for the 50 MILLION people who DONT have health insurance, how is the current system helping them, how about the 10 million + children without insurance, who never get to see a dentist.</p>

<p>Simply what most Democrats want is not a single-payer system, but they want to let the 50 million people and whoever wants buy into Medicare, then if the private system is better like you say the other 250 million will stay in private, if it isnt, then we will have a more single-payer like system.</p>

<p>Oh and naturally if 300 million people are getting care as opposed to 250 million the lines are going to be a bit longer.</p>

<p>its called solidarity, its a cornerstone of civilization, but something American Conservatism and the party of the individual (and the corporation) seems to have forgot.</p>

<p>I see that universal health care is not perfect. For some reason, I am not shocked. Those articles still don't prove that England and Canada are not in good health. Sure, there are some cases reported where people aren't getting their needed drugs(want to bet that the US's numbers are MUCH MUCH higher?). Yeah you are right, people have stopped making pills and medicine in England and Canada, in fact I hear they don't even exist anymore over there! What is next, all medicine will be non-existent as well because the doctors won't be as rich? Come on man. Whether you want to admit it or not, England and Canada are prosperous, first world countries. They have universal health care(that is not perfect), but is much better than the alternative of millions of citizens not having any insurance. No matter how much you want to make it seem like, Canada and England are not collapsing(especially not due to universal health care), and the people are not getting decimated by "waiting over a year" to see doctors. Despite the questionability of that fact, how you could argue that waiting over a year compared to NEVER seeing a doctor is less favorable I don't know. Are you really trying to make it like the US's health care is superior/ any better than universal health care?</p>

<p>John Edwards for sure. Obama IMO has already doomed himself although I wouldn't be opposed to him. Edwards is a true populist and does not talk about bs such as bipartisanship.</p>

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Doctor shortages and waitlists happen due to other reasons in some of those countries, but lets pretend it is universal health care.

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<p>Really - and what might some of those reasons be exactly? Because it sounds like UHC is a pretty likely culprit. </p>

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Free medical services would encourage patients to practice preventive medicine and inquire about problems early when treatment will be light; currently, patients often avoid physicals and other preventive measures because of the costs.

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<p>It would also encourage people to go to the doctor for every little scrape, sniffle, or cough that they ever get... hey, its "free", right? Why not tie up doctors and unneeded medicines?</p>

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Whether you want to admit it or not, England and Canada are prosperous, first world countries.

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<p>I never denied that - however, I also don't admit that this fact is due to their health care systems.</p>

<p>
[quote]
its called solidarity, its a cornerstone of civilization, but something American Conservatism and the party of the individual (and the corporation) seems to have forgot.

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<p>Its called knowing what you're talking about. Once people know the details of what UHC would entail, they don't support it that much.</p>

<p>"For example, while 62 percent in the October 2003 Washington Post/ABC poll said they wanted universal health care system run by the government, rather than the current system, that support dropped to 35 percent if that limited choice of doctors and to 38 percent if that meant longer waits for nonemergency treatment."</p>

<p>I'm not saying the US system is perfect - it has a lot of problems - as a health care professional myself, I know this acutely; however, a purely UHC system would not be better.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_Rf42zNl9U&eurl%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_Rf42zNl9U&eurl&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>This is one of the biggest worries for me about UHC. As a doctor, it would be inconceivable to make a patient with headaches and seizures wait that long for an MRI, but thats what happens with a UHC system. Thats just pathetic health care.</p>

<p>Can't you buy in to private care if you want?</p>

<p>Regarding the first article above, I'd like some clarification of elective surgeries vs. non-elective. I think you'll find that in most countries, emergency surgeries are done more or less immediately. </p>

<p>Regarding the second article, it's anecdotal unless you have specifically research the UK NHS formulary in order to determine exactly which drugs are approved for those conditions, and I'm nearly positive (though I'll admit that I haven't looked into the formulary) that each one of those conditions would have at least one drug to treat those diseases. And there's no telling whether or not those SIX patients even tried the approved drugs and whether or not they did or didn't work and why they stopped them if they did try them. Often people want the drugs with the fewest side effects, not necessarily the drug that's been tested most heavily (this one's important. National Health models are often slow to approve new drugs until they are tested more significantly than the US requires them to be tested to go on the market) and shown to work best. And again, it was six patients, and we don't know their stories in depth.</p>

<p>And about the obese being refused orthopedic surgeries: orthopedic surgeons here OFTEN refuse to do surgeries on people unless they lose weight.</p>

<p>And to address the waiting times: actually, the myths of waiting times are constantly being debunked. An article (op-ed) from the NY Times just last month wrote how many United States politicians seem to continue the myths even though they are not true. I'm quoting liberally from the article because it's only available at this time to NY Times Select subscribers, and so I had to get the article through my university's subscription. The article is titled "The Waiting Game" and it was from the July 16, 2007 issue of the New York Times.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The claim that the uninsured can get all the care they need in emergency rooms is just the beginning. Beyond that is the myth that Americans who are lucky enough to have insurance never face long waits for medical care.</p>

<p>Actually, the persistence of that myth puzzles me. I can understand how people like Mr. Bush or Fred Thompson, who declared recently that ''the poorest Americans are getting far better service'' than Canadians or the British, can wave away the desperation of uninsured Americans, who are often poor and voiceless. But how can they get away with pretending that insured Americans always get prompt care, when most of us can testify otherwise?</p>

<p>A recent article in Business Week put it bluntly: ''In reality, both data and anecdotes show that the American people are already waiting as long or longer than patients living with universal health-care systems.''</p>

<p>A cross-national survey conducted by the Commonwealth Fund found that America ranks near the bottom among advanced countries in terms of how hard it is to get medical attention on short notice (although Canada was slightly worse), and that America is the worst place in the advanced world if you need care after hours or on a weekend.</p>

<p>We look better when it comes to seeing a specialist or receiving elective surgery. But Germany outperforms us even on those measures -- and I suspect that France, which wasn't included in the study, matches Germany's performance.</p>

<p>Besides, not all medical delays are created equal. In Canada and Britain, delays are caused by doctors trying to devote limited medical resources to the most urgent cases. In the United States, they're often caused by insurance companies trying to save money.

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<p>It's that last paragraph that is, to me, particularly appalling. The article goes on to give an example of a UCLA professor who nearly died of cancer when his insurance company tried to stall his getting a biopsy, but I'm sure most of us have our own examples of the waiting that our own insurance companies make us do. The article ends admitting that what most politicians might be talking about is that citizens of the US do receive hip replacements faster than citizens of Canada. However, it goes on to point out that most hip replacements in the US, considering that they're in patients over 65 years old, are paid for and covered by Medicare, which (just to clarify), is as close to a to a single-payer health system that we've got.</p>

<p>Furthermore, and I'm too lazy to find these polls, but again, I will produce them if asked, no other countries want to switch to the US model. While no one is entirely happy with their own system, Americans are, by and large, much more dissatisfied with their own system than the citizens of other countries, and when polls are run in other countries specifically asking people if they'd like to switch to a private health care model, the resounding answer is no. So what are we measuring this supposed lesser-quality universal health care by if not patient satisfaction, longer life spans, longer HEALTHY lifespans, fewer infant deaths, less spent per capita on health care, or more people covered?</p>

<p>Last time I checked, the U.S. ranked BEHIND both Canada and the U.K. in terms of life expectancy. So your argument that health care is so much worse in those countries is bogus.</p>

<p>Admit it, you just don't want your taxes going to fund social services. But you have no problem with your tax dollars going to bomb the **** out of foreign countries. </p>

<p>If you would just admit those two simple things, we could at least respect you for your honesty, if nothing else.</p>

<p>Oh, and
[quote]
Have you done research on this

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<p>Yes, I have.</p>

<p>I found it funny in that poll that the number dropped to 35% and 38% based on choice of doctors and longer waiting lines.</p>

<p>First, how exactly does universal health care limit a choice of doctors? But even if it did, so? Most doctors are qualified for their positions, it's not like you are getting jipped by "having" to go to certain ones(even though once again, some logic is missing from this). The real thing is that people just don't like having "choice" taken away from them, even when the choice means absolutely nothing.</p>

<p>Second, the long waiting lines. Has anyone here ever tried to get into a specialist? Waitlists are often over a year NOW. All medical emergencies are taken care of right away. I just love this illusion that we don't have to wait in the United States, it's really hilarious.</p>

<p>


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<p>While I do not necessarily support the person you are responding to, I think your refutation itself is quite bogus because you provide absolutely no correlation between better Canadian life expectancy and the Canadian health care system. There are many differences between life in Canada and life in the US that alone can explain the disparity in life expectancies of the two countries. Geographical vagaries, such as climate, altitude, plants, and animals can affect quality of life. Canadians as a whole undertake different jobs and lifestyles from Americans that also can affect life expectancy. In fact, in this evidence-lacking debate, Joe Bob Retard could even say that Canadian life expectancy should be higher if it wasn't for the embarrassment that is the Canadian health care system. Point is, until you show some real correlation between the effects of Canadian health care and increased life expectancy of Canadians, you'd be best served keeping that boast.ful and irreverent tone under wraps.</p>

<p>I also don't understand why people on this thread are using the War on Terror budget as some sort of refutation to people who don't want to pay taxes for UHS. Who said we had to support one or the other? And if you subscribe to realism (the philosophy), there would be reason to support a war on terror (to increase US hegemony) as opposed to paying for social welfare.</p>

<p>And again, I'm not stating my opinion on UHS or the War on Terror- just exposing stupidity.</p>