Actually, that’s not the simple answer. It may be the simple answer for that particular school, but at other schools, including the one I graduated from, the school’s additional graduation requirements in theology, art, music, and PE make it physically impossible to take 4 years in all core subjects without course overload or summer school, each of which has its own drawbacks. There is rarely a “one size fits all” answer.
I don’t doubt certain areas of the 2 coasts are way more competitive than flyover land where we live, but I just don’t see where a kid completing Span4 (esp AP Span4 if offered) by junior year is going to be at any disadvantage to a kid who has AP Span5, as long as the kids have overall similar degrees of rigor factoring in all classes. I remember dropping French 5 after 1 semester. We were reading Camus in French, and I had problems digesting him in English! With my kids, by the time they got to AP Span4, 75% or more of the class were native speakers and it was getting to be a major time sink. Even though both kids were targeting tippy tops, in terms of time and stress management, adding AP Span5 to AP Calc, AP Engl, AP Chem, AP Gov and AP Econ, was just not worth it.
Agreed. Due to scheduling issues, my kid’s HS transcript looks like:
9th: French 1
10th: nothing
11th: AP French
12th: nothing
I think her HS planned to offer French 5 to the couple of kids who took AP French as juniors, but she had no interest.
D’s school was the same as skieurope’s - no way to take 4 years of each core subject area because of other graduation requirements and a limited number of class periods.
Also - Statistics IS math – a very important area of math, at that.
AP stats may not be as rigorous as AP Calculus, but it’s a valid choice for a non STEM student, and taking statistics in college is a good idea regardless of major. Biostatistics, Statistics applied to social science - such as PSU’s SODA-, and data science are extremely sought-after majors.
(Just in case HS students are reading this).
But aside from the schools with theology, civics, personal finanace or other requirements, there are still kids able to go for the full array of recommended courses. And some of the best, eg, Jesuit high schools, are foregoing the AP rush entirely.
This is a case where I don’t know OP’s intended targets or other details. I’m assume we’re talking about highly selectives.
Bottom line for OP is, the rigor needs to be there. Adcoms will understand some limitations, but how they review you depends on the full context. They can accept 3 years of hs FL, while only 2 would be a much bigger issue. (Forget whether one took middle schoool FL or whether it’s on the transcript.)
We don’t know if OP reached AP calc. But AP stats is not a core math. It’s fine, after a strong sequence of core math, when that’s where the hs offerings stop.
My many kids span many years and my niece and nephew are now eyeing colleges. They went to a variety of schools, college preparatory one, all of them.
Like @uskoolfish wrote, the simple answer that was the foundation of every one of the curriculums spanning 4 states, including private independent, private catholic, public , was you took 4 years of English, 4 years of Math , 4 years of Science and 4 years of Foreign language, 3 years of History/Social Studies. You took an AP in each of the three the first four disciplines and all 3 years AP of the History in order to get the most rigorous curriculum designation.
Having said that, there were a lot of exceptions to this very general rule. A whole lot. Talk to your GC about this. Is the GC going to give you the check mark as taking the most rigorous courses in your school? That is very important. If the answer is not an unequivocal “yes”, you need to make sure you change your course selections so that you get the highest rigor of courses.
Also, check out the requirements and recommendations of the colleges you have on your list.
My personal opinion which really doesn’t count a whit officially since I’m not an admissions officer, is that having a level 4 language course in itself is not going to hurt an applicant who has a solid record of. Rigorous courses and is given the highest rating possible in that respect by the high school counselor.
Where it can hurt is when you are being assessed in the context of very like applicants who have taken Calc B/C, English AP( lit and language) , AP science , AP foreign language and 3 AP histories. Where do you stand with this crowd? Colleges do take into account whether these courses are available at your high school, but when assessing a group of students all from schools that have this bounty available, they do make judgements as to who has made the best choices in terms of covering their requirements. It’s usually a very quick sweep without a whole lot of thought. But you are leaving out AP Spanish when it’s available. For what? Whether this comes up or not, iU don’t know if we’d even get a consistent answer from the Adcoms , and if we did they would likely say that they tskevall other things into consideration.
My niece is fluent in a foreign language. She got 5 on the AP exam for the language as an 8th grader. She is in a private school very much focused on best preparing their students for the most stringent academic requirements. She’s taking another foreign language. Starting from level 1 and expects to take AP level in it as a senior. That’s one school’s take on it. All of my kids except for one who took 4 years of a language for which no AP level course was offered, took AP Language their senior years. That’s how their schools shepherded them. They didn’t have any reason to take another course instead either.
“If the student has already completed AP calculus and Spanish year 4 (as a non native/heritage speaker), then it is likely that almost all colleges will see that as “4 years” of each subject.”
Many schools here in bay area also call it Spanish 4 or 4H, but it’s still only considered three years of language by GCs and more importantly, adcoms. The best STEM students take AP in a foreign language, and APUSH, even though they are time sinks, so I think the OP would be at a disadvantage.
“But AP Spanish is likely to be more useful than AP statistics for the OP’s pre-med intentions. (Yes, statistics may be useful or required in medicine, but taking statistics in college, often calculus based, will be needed anyway.)”
Agree on this, for some reason, adcoms think AP Stats is fluffy, elementary school math class compared to Calculus.
Most 4-year-college-bound students in the (San Francisco) bay area apply to UCs and/or CSUs. UCs and CSUs consider completion of Spanish 4 to be “four years” since their policy of validating lower level courses after completion of higher level courses effectively means that they use the highest level completed.
https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/counselors/files/csu-uc-a-g-comparison-matrix.pdf (top of second page describes validation)
Perhaps other college may differ, but the most common applied to colleges from bay area high schools do not conform to the claim that completing Spanish 4 in 11th grade is only “three years”.
The Bay Area is among a very few areas where the competition among candidates is nutso fierce. Of course, those kids need to be 100% on top of their games. But I go back to my comment about the context, the rigor. We still don’t know for sure what OP’s targets are. But for top colleges, it’s not good enough to say you don’t like the AP teacher or it’s going to be too much work or you’d rather take accounting or some other elective or a study hall.
It doesn’t matter that OP may need Spanish if he becomes a doctor. You don’t choose that way. Lots of ways to pick up lang skills. It matters because the coursework shifts as you move higher in the progression. Likewise, it doesn’t matter if stats will be needed in your major, once in college. You’re looking for an admit and that’s based on your record, to-date. You get the rigorous cores in, first. So, take AP stats after you fulfilled the basic core expectations of the colleges.
OP may be fine- but realize how little we know about him or her.
“Most 4-year-college-bound students in the (San Francisco) bay area apply to UCs and/or CSUs. UCs and CSUs consider completion of Spanish 4 to be “four years” since their policy of validating lower level courses after completion of higher level courses effectively means that they use the highest level completed.”
Right that’s the minimum requirement for UCs/CSUs, which is very different than what is needed to actually get in. If you want to get admit to UCB or UCLA, you better have a lot more than the a-g list (assuming the hs offers of course).
LOTE 4 is already higher than the a-g minimum (LOTE 2 required for UC and CSU, LOTE 3 recommended for UC). In any case, UC and CSU look at level achieved, not number of courses.
(LOTE = language other than English)
Depends on the school. I asked this exact question at Boston College and the admissions officer told me they would not count middle school and that my osn should take the AP class his senior year.
“LOTE 4 is already higher than the a-g minimum (LOTE 2 required for UC and CSU, LOTE 3 recommended for UC). In any case, UC and CSU look at level achieved, not number of courses.”
Sure UCB and UCLA are going to get thousands, if not tens of thousands of applicants with LOTE 4 and the 4th year being AP. Kids that get into these schools go beyond the recommended of LOTE 3, whether they’re majoring in engineering or history.
A data point of one but close friend’s kid was accepted to H, Brown, Duke, UPenn, and UCB regents with only 3 years of a foreign language. But this kid was/is exceptional in other areas (single sitting ACT 36, 4.0 gpa, #2 in senior class, would have been #1 but wanted to take 4 years of band, LORs that likely stated this kid is the most accomplished, smartest in 20+ years, etc). For mere mortals take at least the recommended number of years of a foreign language and beyond if you can.
By this, do you mean that s/he completed only up to level 3 of high school foreign language?
Correct.
By the way, my D20 has completed 3 full years of Spanish (7th & 8th grade = 1 year; 9th grade = 2nd year, and 10th grade = 3rd year). We had a big discussion on whether to take a 4th year and she/we decided D wants to take other classes instead. Hoping it doesn’t hurt her chance too much in admissions. She has the requisite 4 years each of Sciences, Math, English, & History and will have taken 9 APs by end of HS.
When they say 3 or four years of FL, they mean during the high school years. OP said levels 2 3 4 in hs. That can be fine if senior year is otherwise rigorous.
It’s too easy for an adcom to look at a transcript and see you dropped FL after 10th. Each person has to evaluate their own “whole.” Anecdotes can mislead.
OP, I think you’re fine.
For reference, my D did took only 3 years of Spanish in HS (she did not take the AP Spanish that was offered in her HS), opting to focus her senior classes on STEM courses and other courses that interested her. For the tippy tops, it really is a holistic review of the applicant.