I don’t think there is too big a difference in grading curves. The grades distribution I mentioned is in general, not specific for this class, and I said the median for most classes are AT LEAST B- in responding to someone else post above me. If the median is B, it is not really a weeding class.
Got it. Thanks billscho.
A premed might be OK taking Calc 1 at a CC or lower tier college for GPA reasons. I think for engineering, it could be a mistake. I don’t think there is high concept calculus on the MCAT. For engineering, Calc1 is a basic class, which is needed even for Physics 1, you have to really understand the material.
If you are not a weed, aka you are qualified and work hard, you are unlikely to be weeded out.
I would be worried that a CC or lower tier college will not cover all the material of Calc1 and considering you/she already have taken the class, should be able to achieve a good grade in Calc1 and if you don’t get an A on the midterm, learn to work like mad to get that grade up by the final.
The core material in Calc 1 is not that difficult. Learning to do more than the easiest example problems in the book, to learn concepts and do the hardest problems in the book plus a bit of mixing it up on exams… that is really what you need to make it through the other 3 semesters of math and the engineering classes where math is the least of your problems.
You/she got into UMich, so you belong there, now learn to prove you belong there for the next 4 years.
You also want to be both aware of the challenges of competing with your very smart UMich COE peers and confident that you can do so, which I don’t think Dearborn will do…
When will the CC / Dearborn method end ? CC seems really risky … your competition is just unlikely to be at UMich levels.
PS - the fairness and idea that professors should teach what you think they should teach and grade the way you think they should grade is a road to unhappiness, disappointment and likely lower grades. You need to understand how your professors teach, what they think is important, and what the minimum effort is for you to get the grades you want, by say week 3 to really be efficient and successful. What might have been, should have been, could be … not really worthwhile thinking about.
Academics is a game, but a game with a cause, to learn the material well enough to move on to the next level of mastery. Occasionally there is a nut out there, but most of the time, it’s all good in the end. Unless you are a calculus professor yourself, how do you know how difficult the material should be.
Especially important not to buy into too many excuses and whining from your kids, typically the answer to “I got a lower grade than I deserved” is tell them a) figure out what you need to do, b) work harder, c) deal with it and stop wasting your time (and mine) complaining. Cut them off during the "because the teacher is a jughead with large ears and the font on the exam was small and not Courier and they asked me too many questions about limits " tirade.
It’s all part of learning to not say “I didn’t get the promotion I deserved because " and say " how do I get to be that guy’s and my current bosses’ boss in the next few years”.
College is way more fair than real life.
Taking Calc 1 and 2 at a CC would be not much different from taking AP Calc BC at high school. It is at a similar pace. Many students at CoE take the AP credits and start with Calc 3. It is not that common to take Calc 1 & 2 at CC for the CoE students. However, the Physics 240 equivalent course at WCC is filled with UMich students, mostly from CoE, particularly this year since the exam for UM credit is waived.
Absolutely! I think at the end of the day the goal is to preserve the GPA and not get too deep into pride of competing with others or proving she belongs. As you mentioned, even the engineers and many others are not taking these courses because they’ve placed out via AP which are run at a CC level. I think my D taking it at a CC kind of evens the playing field. The weed out concept is arcane and serves no purpose. Those that apply the strategy of avoiding this seems to be ahead of the game.
@umsigmadom With all due respect, I would argue that at the end of the day the goal is to learn as much as possible. This is especially true in a class like 1st semester calculus. Consider how much more your daughter might learn taking the class at U of M than at a CC.
The combination of:
a. My son is going to want to stay 4 full years at Michigan
b. I’m paying through the nose in tuition
c. I would hope he’d benefit from taking classes with the caliber of student that is at Michigan
means to me that he is taking his calc classes at Michigan.
Now, he actually really likes math/calc, so I know he’d prefer that regardless.
Calc 1 is not that though even at UMich, but it makes sense to take it (or any class) as CC for credit if to avoid schedule conflict, potential drop in GPA (for merit aid purpose), or to catch up pre-requisite schedule. One need to be careful in calculating credits (including external/transfer credits) to avoid barely over 55 credits after certain semester. Let’s say you get 3 credits from CC this summer and now you will have 56 credit after Fall semester. Then you need to pay $1000-$2500 more for the next semester (and thereafter) due to upperclassman tuition rate. That makes the actual cost for that CC class more than the few hundred dollars.
Having taken both calc 1 and 2 (math 115 and 116) my freshman year (08-09), I would say they are both manageable as long as you attend class and put in the work. But more than calc 1, calc 2 was notorious for its difficulty and the lack of grading leniency put the curve below other equivalent freshman math/science courses. On the flip side, Michigan has many resources that provide outside help to students (i.e. math lab, tutors, etc) for these introductory courses. Looking back, I’m glad I took all of my math courses at Michigan since they provided me with a solid foundation for upper level courses.
@tz2s6v , I don’t necessarily disagree. My thoughts, though are that Calculus is an objective subject. As far as Calculus is concerned, there’s not much more to learn at U-M than most other places. It’s the application of Calculus that’s most important, and that is what the U-M engineering classes are for. The fact that this weeder class phenomenon even exists is what is frustrating. Don’t want D getting caught up in those policies and politics. For the earlier courses, I think it’s just good strategy to go for the grades. The challenges and proving will come in the later courses. As someone mentioned earlier, many of the STEM students already come in with credits for those courses and THEY took the courses in HS AP classes. So, they don’t even have to contend with weeder courses.
@unsigmadom For what it is worth, my experience over 30 years ago was that calculus was the most abstract class I had encountered at the time. I did not take calculus in high school, so it was a real transition for me and a good teacher was critical. My D will be a freshman this fall and facing a similar decision as your D. She is debating whether to skip Calc 1 & 2 and start with Calc 3, because she scored a 5 on the AP Calculus BC test. Even though she scored well on the AP test, she is a little nervous about skipping ahead in college. You can’t apply calculus well in the upper level engineering classes, if you don’t understand the basics of Calc 1 well.