Confessions of a School Snob

Parents Forum
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<p>Pizza- I don’t disagree in theory but that’s like saying that once you’ve won a Rhodes scholarship it doesn’t matter if you went to New Trier HS or an inner city HS on the South Side of Chicago. Of course it doesn’t matter.</p>

<p>But this discussion is not about a kid who struggled to make it from no-name U to residency. It happens- and it’s a wonderful reflection on that kid. But why start the race with a 500 lb sack on your back if the kid has the stats to start the race from a much better place? I know many kids at these types of colleges. They have all sorts of different backgrounds and perspectives on their education. But many of my friends are up nights worrying that the kid will lose his motivation to become a middle school gym teacher or won’t make it to a BA in Early Childhood Ed before he or she is 30 years old. Staying the course at one of these schools if the faculty isn’t oriented towards pushing and coaching and guiding a kid to med school is challenging-- and that’s not even the coursework, just all the other stuff that goes with it.</p>

<p>Yes, a self-directed kid can do it. But how many kids sit in front of a med school admissions committee and talk about last summer at Pfizer or Merck working anti-malarial compounds? And how do these kids get these jobs-- an interested and well connected professor picks up the phone and calls their former PhD student who now runs that lab.</p>

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<p>I do agree with this, very strongly:

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<p>It is the greatest gift my parents gave me (and my H’s parents gave him) and one that I am so grateful we will be able to offer our children.</p>

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<p>^^ “Yes, a self-directed kid can do it.”</p>

<p>This is what bothers me a lot about the OP’s situation. “Fourth-tier, that’s perfect for me” is not a decision that’s in his best interest … keeping in mind that what the kid wants to “do” is get accepted to Medical School.</p>

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<p>I read this stuff to H and he’s quite glad he got into med school without having to be Researcher of the Year – when med school admissions required just a lot more “you’re a smart kid in the sciences, got a great MCAT and interview well”!</p>

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<p>"no-name U without faculty resources for advising and guiding, "</p>

<p>-simply does not exists. All schools have resources and advising. Some students will never see it, because they do not try hard enough to see. And, yes, much more availbale to the top student (do not need to be genius, work hard, manage time, be smart about priorities), than others. They need to be seeking out, helping others, do your best and get engaged, and believe me they will get noticed. At the end it feels like all sorts of opportunities, scholarships, grants, jobs, awesome advising and Rec. letters litterally falling out of the sky. I am talking about average state school here.</p>

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<p>^ sigh …</p>

<p>Does the no-name U have a faculty committee dedicated to facilitating Medical School admissions … yes, or no?</p>

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<p>^^ Yes, the “no-name” school has a pre-health advisory committee. In fact, the school from which he has received a written athletic scholarship offer is fairly successful @ med-school admissions, with 2009 graduates at Wake Forest (Bowman Gray,) and Quillen, which is top-ranked for rural medicine, if you’re into that, along with many other schools. This “no-name” school is in the USNWR top 25 for Baccalaureate schools in the South, but doesn’t make any other list that I’m aware of. The school that is home to the aforementioned biology dept. chair is also on that list, but is listed at a “Tier 3” with no ranking.</p>

<p>Somehow my original post has devolved into a discussion of the relative merits of various undergraduate programs as they relate to med school admissions. While I acknowledge the relevance to my son’s decision, that was not my question. From my personal experience (started pre-med, ended English major) and from those with whom I’m familiar - most kids who enter college intending to go to medical school do not, for whatever reason. I am certain that if my son chooses to go to med school he will make it happen. </p>

<p>I don’t really appreciate some who’ve assumed my son is some sort of slacker or is un-motivated to succeed. Quite the contrary - other than an issue in one subject his junior year, he has managed brilliantly in combining essentially year-round professional-level competition and travel with a rigorous academic schedule. However, if you haven’t lived in a small, rural community you probably do not understand the mentality of sticking close to home. If I had to hazard a guess, I would estimate 80-90% of his graduating class (in a school fairly highly ranked by USNWR) will attend one of a number of “no-name” schools in the area. It is more of a lifestyle choice than a lack of desire or motivation.</p>

<p>What my original question really was is how do I come to terms with his desire to stay within 1 hour of our little corner of the world, when I feel strongly that great opportunity lies outside this area? And, am I being elitist or snobby to feel that he’s wasting his talent.</p>

<p>Additionally, since he has a shot at going pro in his sport - these “no-name” schools are the center of this sport’s universe. We haven’t spent countless money and time, equipment and travel, only to decide at this point that this part of his life shouldn’t be even considered when planning the next 4 years. </p>

<p>I appreciate all of the input and discussion more than you know, but let’s tone-down the assumptions that are not based on fact.</p>

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<p>

Thanks, blossom. I know you’re trying to be helpful. But don’t you worry none about lil ol’ me. I’ll just muddle along. </p>

<p>

^^^^^^^That’s my point.^^^^^^^^ (Do the arrows help?) </p>

<p>After all our posts, I have little patience left for the interminable fights on cc over predictable stances on predictable topics. IMO, it’s all just silly self-amusement. </p>

<p>So. Don’t mind me. Y’all go back to your flag waving. “Hooray!!” </p>

<p>Now. As to the Yale dude, yeah. It’s OT to most everything :wink: but I did find the “residency is concerned about which UG” comment interesting so I wanted to run down that rabbit trail a bit. Still trying to find any mention in the literature but…</p>

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<p>Aahh. Just one more ^^^^^^. It is cc afterall. </p>

<p>It’s like herding cats. ;)</p>

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<p>jcc</p>

<p>I do NOT thing you are being a snob or elitist – You are simply a parent who wants the BEST for you kid. It simply sounds like your idea of the Best is to open your son up to the wider world and have him experience a slice of life outside your geo. location.</p>

<p>The only thing is that he wants to make a different choice. He values the quick acceptance and comfort zone more than you do right now.</p>

<p>You’ll appreciate his choice when you can easily go see him play his sport :slight_smile: as well as when you come on CC to read of the stress of the application season for other families.</p>

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<p>^^^^ Couldn’t Resist! Cur, thanks as always for the comic relief.</p>

<p>I expected some polarization of responses along the lines of YaleGradDad and Miami’s respective positions. And I’m not surprised by the numbers who fall into both camps - this is, after all, CC.</p>

<p>I was hoping for a little more insight from those who’ve been in my situation, and a lot less “interminable fights on cc over predictable stances on predictable topics.” Hence my request that we stay on topic and quit arguing the merits of an ivy league education as it relates to residency matching.</p>

<p>My son will make the decision that fits with his athletic and academic goals, and that we can manage to afford. I do intend to play the mom card and insist that he broaden his choices outside his immediate comfort zone. Many of you have agreed and encouraged that route, and I appreciate it.</p>

<p>Beyond that, I don’t have a lot more to say, except “thanks for the help” to those who’ve offered it.</p>

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<p>Crossposted, Longhaul, but there’s a lot of merit in what you say…</p>

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<p>My oldest son graduated from a highly ranked private school. Recently he was talking to his youngest brother about his college search. He said he spent a lot of time researching this school. He educated himself. We took him on various visits but ultimately he decided what schools to apply to. He is now in a good graduate school program. </p>

<p>My point is that he was very involved in the process and looked very closely at each school he applied to. </p>

<p>Can he answer questions that you have about the school he chooses to apply to?</p>

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<p>

You counsel and you advise and then you let him do what he’s gonna do. You recognize that it is not a death sentence for his dreams. Now, depending on the school he picks…he can put himself several feet down a six foot hole, but…the dreams don’t die with this UG choice. You and I both recognize there are “better academic fits” for this kid than the 4th tier he’s considering. </p>

<p>IMO, when you start thinking about what his school choice says about you, that’s when you have a problem with “snobby” or “elitist”. From our back channel conversations, you are not there yet. Are ya? So don’t worry. ;)</p>

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<p>JCC, the two most gifted kids in my HS class…</p>

<p>The first was a varsity athlete at an Ivy league U; won a Fulbright and studied abroad, finished a PhD at one of the top schools in his field and is a world class scholar and expert. The last time I googled him my desktop computer nearly crashed from the weight of his publications, press mentions, professional awards, etc. He travels extensively to speak, teach, and is now advising several central banks in the developing world on a range of social/economic/political issues.</p>

<p>The second was accepted at a “7 sisters” school with full scholarship (we didn’t know the difference between merit and need back then- all I know is that it was a lot of money) and her parents didn’t want her to leave town. Although the guidance counselor tried to intervene, in the end both the kid and the parents agreed that she’d take the full scholarship to a local college, commute, and keep her social and family network intact. She was the first in the family to go to college and she graduated with honors. She is a middle school science teacher and has been voted “teacher of the year” in her school system for about the last 10 years and won a DOE award for methodology and pedagogy. She lives about 3 miles from where she grew up, married a guy from the HS across town. I don’t know if she’s ever traveled abroad but she seems to have a happy life and a fulfilling career.</p>

<p>There’s no right answer to the question you ask. I don’t think I would have allowed any of my kids to stay too close to home for college because those are MY values- the world is increasingly flat, and the best time to broaden your horizons (intellectually, socially, etc.) in my opinion is when you are young and not tied to a career, a mortgage, a house, or parents who need constant care or medical intervention. But that’s me.</p>

<p>I absolutely respect the kids and families I know who want their kids close by, although there have been a couple of situations where I’ve worried about the dynamic between parent and child. It’s great when a kid makes an affirmative decision to stay in their region or in their comfort zone- it’s less great when the kid decides not to take any risks, not to encounter failure, not to set the bar so high that it’s a stretch to make it. Stretching is good in my value system. Failing sometimes because you took a calculated risk is also good. Being uncomfortable sometimes is good. Not fitting in 100% because you are far from home is really good. But I am a descendant of many generations of refugees and immigrants, and frankly, my family survived the Holocaust because my grandparents were not afraid to show up penniless, homeless, and not speaking the language to the only country which allowed them in. So I have internalized my family’s comfort level with being far from home, but I respect and understand why other people crave the familiar.</p>

<p>So I think you and your son have a journey together to try and figure out what his desire to stay close to home represents. And maybe there’s a compromise in the works- he finds three colleges which are in the region but slightly closer to the academic environment you envision, and then you sort out the details next April.</p>

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<p>From the studies I have seen, the top kids seem to do very well regardless of where they go to college. From what I have seen, those kids who are not good students and don’t care for academics, are at risk where ever they end up going to college. It leaves the kids in the middle, and who knows where the borders are, where a type of school may make the difference.</p>

<p>For those kids who want to stay local or in state, it does not mean that they are necessarily getting an inferior education. It does depend on what colleges are in your area. A full state university with graduate programs can provide a ceilingless education for kids who have the motivation and ability. I was impressed with the math and science courses, how advanced the kids can go, the professors, the opportunities at my son’s state u which is not the destination for the academically inclined here. Lots of international students taking advantage of those classes, I noticed. That there is a law school, medical school, health professionals school and phd programs for just about every subject makes it a place where even the top students can find challenges and opportunities. </p>

<p>Now if you live out in the sticks, where the only option is a community college that doesn’t have many liberal arts courses beyond the introductory level and the classes are comprised mainly of kids who are just not up to college level work, that is a whole different story. Does he have choices in the area that will keep him in the mainstream academically?</p>

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<p>"Does the no-name U have a faculty committee dedicated to facilitating Medical School admissions … yes, or no? "</p>

<p>-Very strong YES. This committee, verified/reviewed everything (including essay), person conducted one-on-one with pre-med. They created a packet, including LORs. Commitee submitted this packet after student submitted Primary application. Everything has been received / processed / verified properly and in timely manner.</p>

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<p>I’ve seen some kids who are just not ready to take the plunge into a high powered challenging college, even though they are top high school students. My husband is one who took that chance, and it did work out for him, but another kid from his high school that had the same background, similarly able, just could not buckle down and start working and studying hard, so he flunked out of college. He blamed his lack of preparation for the failure as his high school truly did not teach at a very high level with very few kids going even to the state flagship, much less private, selective colleges. There is a quota system for the state flagship for that region of the state–for lawyers and doctors too, and half the time no one makes that quota. No applicants. Sad. </p>

<p>However, there were some very good, top students from that school that did succeed wonderfully, going to some smaller, less selective schools in the state rather than to big ol’ Flagship U or to Very Selective U. They were able to make the transition less traumatically than my husband who really had a tough freshman year, and was sure he wasn’t going to make it many times over. He does not think that this is a good situation to put a kid in as it does have a high failure rate. If certain crucial things were not in place, mostly by luck and chance, he would not have made it even though he certainly has the raw material and work ethic to do it as he has shown with not only graduating with honors in Mathematics at this college, but going on to another most rigorous school for his advanced degree. He is as pedigreed as anyone academically, but his background is definitely “cracker”.</p>

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<p>By the way, speaking of med schools, some kids might be a lot better off at some no name college with a strong premed department committed to getting kids into med school. Some of the top prep colleges for med schools such as JHU, Cornell, not to mention tech type schools, are truly academic gauntlets. They may have a 100% acceptance rate for medical school applicants, but they are pre selected through committee and many very able kids are dropped from the aspiration due to the gate keeping of the college. A difficult curve, big premed courses and labs, unhelpful, unsympatheic profs and TAs, a cut throat student population does not make a good environment for an aspiring premed. If you can get into med school from such an under grad program, you are truly up there and probably are good for top research med programs. But if you had better be prepared to work your tail off and be grade stressed during your undergrad years, because the chances of not getting into any med school are real. The same kid might do just fine in a less competitive setting.</p>

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<p>Pre-meds, including valedictorians from private prep HS are " grade stressed during your undergrad years" at ANY place, please, do not underestimate it. If they are not, they are not making it, and good number is not, no exceptions. Classes are very challenging for everybody, including the very first classes, and including those who have taken AP and got “5” on AP exam. They fool themselves if they skip first classes in something like Bio.</p>