<p>^More than any other major, it is absolutely does not matter which UG you go for pre-med. All is required is to get GPA as close to 4.0 as possible and reasonable MCAT, participate in EC’s (opportunities are everywhere) and one will be all set. And, Orgo is very doable also, one needs to work harder in this one, but it is the same difficulty level as most Bio classes anyway. It is very important that there is school/student match, that he is feeling comfortable on campus for 4 years, it might make a difference. Tier system for UG pre-med is not important to consider.</p>
<p>jcc, I also think you’re doing the right thing. Stress to your son that applying isn’t getting in, and getting in isn’t going. You wouldn’t force him to go against his will even if you could, which you can’t. You’re just trying to make sure that he keeps options open.</p>
<p>I actually think that you are doing exactly what you should be doing. Encourage him to apply to some better suited Target schools, and at least one reach in addition to his choice schools. Ok, so maybe May 1 comes around and he still wants to attend CC. Fine. But I have a hunch that some acceptance letter (along with a nice FA package 
will arrive that will perhaps light a fire in him to push for more. It feels good to be accepted and that can change everything. So keep at it, while remaining ok with what ever he ends up deciding for himself. </p>
<p>Also, maybe he feels intimidated by the larger schools, or top sch? Maybe look at something along the lines of Davidson? Guilford as a Safety? Don’t know his personality but just thinking smaller may be better for him (Duke’s smaller, but the atmosphere totally intimidated my son).</p>
<p>Since you are looking for a lot of financial aid, he should apply to more than 6 colleges! Let him know that where he goes to school is also dependent on good financial aid, and stress that you want him to have several choices that end up affordable to you. Again, he does NOT need to decide where he is going to school now; his job now is to pick 8-10 schools that he would be fairly happy going to, that will also give him a shot at some good scholarships and/or financial aid. Leave the final decision-making until April.</p>
<p>FA is often available for someone with those stats, even at more prestigious institutions. Has he looked at seven year programs? If he could get a scholarship to one of those his life is so much easier – no MCAT’s, and he saves a year of tuition.</p>
<p>Don’t worry about it now.</p>
<p>Insist he has some options in case he changes his mind and work on accepting it by next year if he doesn’t.</p>
<p>He sounds like a fine young man. When he’s a doctor your elitism (sorry – I have some too) should be satisfied enough that you’ll never have to worry about it agan.</p>
<p>MD Mom – I created the concept of the “mommy school.” Each of mine almost went but then got accepted to their top choice.</p>
<p>FWIW, if he goes to a (somewhat) less competitive college, he is more likely to win awards like “Top Junior Biology Major.” I really am not a college snob and love a wide variety of schools (!) but I’d be reluctant to send a pre-med to a school where he might be the only pre-med by the time he’s in his junior year.</p>
<p>I can relate, although not so much as it relates to safety schools but about the college search in general. My child has high stats but thinks the college admissions process is overblown and a lot of hype. (He’s partly correct.) In any case, I would encourage framing this not so much as you want your child to do X, Y, Z but rather – it’s fairly standard advice from counselors and people who know the system that students should apply to 2-3 each safety, match, reach. It would be nice if your son had some options, even if he ultimately decides to go the safety route. In other words, I find that it helps if I separate my advice from general suggestions to all students.</p>
<p>jcc,</p>
<p>There’s a lot of good advice in this thread. Good advice that is sometimes contradictory, but good none-the-less.</p>
<p>Of all the concrete ideas, the one I like the best is Olymom’s from page 2:
</p>
<p>What’s great about this advice is that it would let your S (and his buddy) see what a college that is not a 4th tier directional state U really is like without you or other adults around to point out the obvious to them. You say son’s school starts soon. But a fall break would be perfect timing: Remember that most colleges have RD deadlines that range from Dec. 15 to Jan 31 or later. So if he gets excited about a different kind of college after such a trip, then wonderful!</p>
<p>But I’d also let him apply to the fourth tier places that he’s already interested in. They may work for both academic and financial safeties if the tuition is right and he can live at home. And kids do manage to make it to med school from fourth tier places: At least they do from the one I teach at. Not all of them, and and not every year; but if the kid really wants to go to med school, it’s possible to get there from Podunk U.</p>
<p>It’s also possible that your S may be worrying about the cost of college as well as whether he’s “fit in” at a place farther up the academic ladder. Does his school typically send most of the students—including the best ones—off to the local state U’s rather than the state flagship or privates?</p>
<p>And is it possible that your S is worried about balancing cycling with academics at a really rigorous college?</p>
<p>I think that this may be a case where “parent chooses n schools and kid chooses n schools” will give the kid the best range of choices come April 1. But be reasonable with n—somewhere between 2 and 4 is all that’s reasonable. And given his stats and the fact that he already has a safety he loves, I really wouldn’t sweat trying to classify the schools as “match” or “reach”—for your picks, just pick ones you think he might like.</p>
<p>And in the end, when May 1 comes and he has to make a choice, as some other poster said, tell him “Congratulations and good luck” regardless of whether he chooses familiar, fFourth-tier Local State U or Mom’s College of Choice.</p>
<p>And make sure he bikes with his helmet!</p>
<p>Brother’s at a 4th-tier local state school in TN. He had similar stats to OP’s S, didn’t really care about college search, parents made him visit/apply all over the country, ended up just heading to the local mostly commuter school. Now, he’s leapfrogged most of the PhD students in the hard sciences there and is doing/presenting/publishing advanced research with them and the professors. Parties on the weekends at the house he’s renting off scholarship funds and plays jazz all over town for fun. He’ll be a sophomore next year and looks to be well on his way to med school. </p>
<p>So long as your S is interested and engaged by whatever he has to work with at his school, I think he’ll be okay wherever he ends up. If he’s not the self-motivated type though, it might be a good idea to steer him towards a more involved college. In the end, like others are saying in this thread, he’ll have to make the choice himself, so encourage him to have options and let him make his decision.</p>
<p>My son was not interested in anything but local schools at first. He has never been adventuresome, or a risk taker, and was very happy going to a high school with many of the kids he has known since he was little. He loves that security. My older ones were more open to change than this one.</p>
<p>We started the college tours with a tiny nearby college where he is sure to be accepted, he can commute there, it is not one of the high priced schools, it is familiar and he might even get a little money. He felt it was too small and too close. So we started working our way outward. We made a big jump when we visited Pittsburgh really because a dear friend of ours invited me for a visit during his spring break and her gorgeous daughter contacted son on Facebook urging him to look at some college there. Her sister goes to a small college enroute so we visited her and toured her school. I don’t know if I could have gotten him out of the NYC area otherwise. But now that he has expanded his horizons, he is more open to the idea of looking further from home.</p>
<p>I think suggesting that he go with a friend is a great idea. Kids will look at schools with their peers that they won’t with the parents.</p>
<p>MiamiDAP:</p>
<p>I strongly disagree with your statements on medical school admissions - at least for the better quality medical schools.</p>
<p>You state: More than any other major, it is absolutely does not matter which UG you go for pre-med. </p>
<p>It didn’t look that way at my medical school where half the class was made up of Ivy league graduates and similar schools like Stanford and JHU. I don’t recall their making a big deal about the incoming GPA’s but they sure did tell us about the prestigious colleges our classmates attended. I’m sure a 3.4 GPA at a top tier college was worth more than a 4.0 at a good university when looking at my classmates.</p>
<p>You also state:</p>
<p>She does not understand herself the hype about elite UG schools and why some are paying so much $$ for them. </p>
<p>I may get flamed for this but it is not hype. Being surrounded and educated by my classmates made me so much more than a successful applicant to medical school. I could have gotten an education at a flagship state to make it into a flagship medical school and be every bit as busy and financially successful as I am with my “elite” degrees. The opportunity to spend those years at a select university (and there are many) was a priceless gift remembered long after the costs fade from memory.</p>
<p>To the OP, your son will be poorly served at a school where the faculty can’t recall medical school applicants even if there were some. His medical school and residency directors will care about the name of that institution and not just his GPA. This is especially important if he develops an interest in one of the more competitive medical specialties (ie. Orthopedics). And even if they didn’t, and he thought it was easier to compete in a smaller pond, it is hard to imagine his ultimate success if he is not committed to reach his potential. Good luck getting him to apply to more selective schools that better match his potential. Perhaps he will mature over the year and thank you come April. The odds of him giving up his medical school dream are statistically high but he shouldn’t think he is furthering his interests by going to a 4th tier school so he can more easily do well.</p>
<p>Yalegradanddad: somebody had to say it. There it is.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>From a residency director standpoint, all the little newbies fresh out of medical school are just that, newbies who don’t know what end is up and have a lot to learn. The residency director isn’t going to know or care what undergrad someone went to. He or she is going to care about whether this person learns, reads, observes, holds the scalpel properly, can handle an insane workload, knows when to go it alone and when to get help. But he or she won’t pay one whit of attention to “where did these people go to undergrad.” Get real.</p>
<p>This is one of those thread that questions, “What’s the difference?” I’m in the camp that says: there’s a HUGE difference. The peers make up the biggest difference in my mind, but there’s so much more than that. It’s just about everything. The environment, the diversity, the opportunities, the vibes. </p>
<p>MY DH came home yesterday, telling me about a casual lunchtime experience he had in NYC. He went to check out guitars so he went to a music shop. While there, a few folks were also checking out the wares. But these “casual” players, ya’ know, the ones who “taught themselves how to play”…well, these guys were as good as professionals, picking, strumming, and stretching those strings to the fullest. So My DH called it one of those “only in New York” moments. And that’s the kind of experiences you’d find in a full fledged university: everybody at the top of their game. Sure, you’d find that at smaller 4th-tier LACs too, but it’s just more common at a top school.</p>
<p>From that first real experience, and then ultimately to med school, there’s just a difference. Call it confidence, “the look and feel”, the camaraderie, but it’s intuitively there.</p>
<p>There are plenty of residencies in less desirable specialties that can’t even fill with foreign medical graduates. Those directors will be happy to take anyone who speaks English and can get a provisional medical license in the state. Obtaining acceptance to a select university and performing well there and doing the same in medical school is a pretty good predictor of success mastering that insane workload. Half the applicants in some competitive specialties don’t match at a training program anywhere in the country. Presumably less than stellar applicants know enough to not even apply into those fields like Orthopedics and Dermatology. Do you think they even need to consider people whose UG achievement is at 4th tier U? Every university conference I attend has the residency program director introducing their new residents. They all tell us their impressive UG and medical school degree granting institutions but I have never heard them tout a GPA, MCAT score, or say they “don’t give a whit” about where they came from. You can’t get into a medical school without completing an UG degree (unless it is a combined program not relevant to this discussion) and yet every residency program I applied to asked me for my UG school and transcript. Your conclusion makes no sense. Of the 120+ medical schools in the U.S. can you refer me to one website that says only MCAT score and GPA are considered and it does not matter what UG school is attended? Are you aware of any national residency matching program that does not require the inclusion of UG degree information in the process? I didn’t think so. </p>
<p>Just like colleges give preference to high performers at outstanding high schools, medical schools do the same and residency programs continue that trend. Each subsequent school/program develops an idea about what it means to come from the feeder institutions. Go look at the degree granting institutions associated with top medical school faculty and note the correlation between “prestige degrees” and appointments. You’re not going to find the same opportunities from a 4th tier school and that will carry forward in your career.</p>
<p>In the red cor-nerrrrRRRr, weighing at a svelte 222 lbs the challengerrrrr, from an Unknown Third Tier Toilet, with a record of 4 point zero, all by knockout…“Regular Joe” Schmoooooooooooooe.</p>
<p>In the blue cornerRRRr, weighing in at 245 lbs, from Hot Shot Research U, with a record of 3 point 4, the Heavyyyyyweight Cham-pi-on of the Worrrrrrrld, Elite Edward Feeblephister the Fourth.</p>
<p>Fighters…you both know the rules in place for tonight’s fight…this fight will ignore EC’s, research experiences and publications, LOR’s, volunteer activities, interviewing skills, life circumstances and experiences, ethnic and socio-economic backgrounds, MCAT scores, and the size of your…hands (;)) and will be decided solely on a decision you made as a seventeen maybe 18 year-old that was driven in large part by your parents and their economic situation at the time that you had little or no control over…and</p>
<p>Yeah, right. That’s exactly how it works for med school admissions in 2010. 
</p>
<p>Uhhh…folks, it don’t play out like this and… like most things in life, it just ain’t that simple. </p>
<p>Miami understates the value of a great UG, Yale dude overstates. Sure it’s fun…but it’s just all for show. Flag waving. “Hooray for our side!” </p>
<p>BTW, the 3.4 dude from Elite U is in really bad shape. In this fight, I’ll take the challenger. 3.65? I might change my card. ;)</p>
<p>If anyone is actually interested in what the facts are about residency matching, here’s the best resource I know available. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf[/url]”>http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf</a></p>
<p>I don’t see any mention of UG in that report (or any other report I remember seeing). </p>
<p>The situation I see today is that for academic medicine and for those interested in the most competitive residencies and specialties, med school “name” matters “some”. (And that is reflected somewhat in the reported chart on “Top 40 NIH funding” in the link.)</p>
<p>I believe UG “name” matters “some” in med school admissions, especially at the Top Research-Focused Med Schools. I also believe “some” few UG schools, and some programs within other schools, get an admissions boost and/or GPA “correction” upwards at “most” med schools. </p>
<p>The take-away from this? Go to the best UG school you can afford …and then do your very best. Don’t rest on your laurels (or any other part ;)) if you are at an elite UG school. That non-elite kid may be right on your :eek:. As always, just my opinion. </p>
<p>And yeah. Just for the record, that’s the same advice I’m giving my med school-bound D about residencies, too. ;)</p>
<p>Here’s another link to residency factors <a href=“http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf[/url]”>A non Match-participating program at my institution offered a position to an applicant who has a concurrent year match to another program. Is my institution liable? | NRMP. Still don’t see UG mentioned…but I’m still looking. Yeah. Just a touch of insomnia. ;)</p>
<p>while this discussion is quite interesting, you guys are comparing the theoretical admissions results of, let’s just say, the OP’s kid if he were to apply to med school from Penn State vs. U Penn (just to keep the Penn’s in play.) If so, that’s a discussion worth having. There are hundreds of kids at U Penn every year who think they want to go to med school, and full resources there to advise them. There are thousands of kids at Penn State who are similarly inclined, and ditto- the resources are there. Whether 'tis better to launch said career from Penn State or U Penn for a kid who needs a lot of financial aid- that is the question.</p>
<p>But sadly for Curmudgeon and Miami and YaleGradDad, that is not what the OP is trying to flesh out. I am not sure that ANYONE, even the most diehard anti-elitist on this thread, could advocate that a kid should aim for a no-name U without faculty resources for advising and guiding, if the ultimate goal is med school. Can you find kids from Southern Connecticut State College at a US Residency program? I’m sure you can. Is that the route that this kid ought to take since his stats suggest he’d do well at U Conn, or 49 other flagship State U’s, plus dozens of private U’s, all of which have well regarded programs in the sciences???</p>
<p>I’d be more concerned, frankly, if this were my kid, that after a year at fourth tier college my kid decided he was interested in Nanotechnology or Biostatistics or Mechanical Engineering. The premed curriculum is shallow enough that a kid could cobble together the requirements even if the faculty advising was weak or non-existent. But for a kid oriented towards the sciences, what happens if he wants another discipline within the sciences?</p>
<p>I’m not being elitist- just realistic. Top public U’s and top private U’s have deep benchstrength in the sciences. Labs, grants, faculty, visiting faculty, grad students to mentor, access to fellowship opportunities, summer jobs at cool research facilities in other places, strong ties to industry and R&D professionals who are a phone call away by a department chair or faculty member. This is what you are paying for, whether it’s Penn State, U Penn, or U Conn. Bio 101? That’s the gateway, and this kid will get that course on his transcript regardless of where he goes. But the rest of the package???</p>
<p>So OP- encourage your son to apply to a couple of schools with all the resources of a “deep benchstrength U” in the sciences. He may feel differently come April.</p>
<p>Does he even know what a biostatistician does? Does he know that exciting new research on cancers is being done by mathemeticians who may in fact, never see a patient? Or has he read about the new prosthetic devices being invented for soldiers returning from Afghanistan, and wondered about the teams of engineers and computer scientists who are creating these life saving devices? Or has he read about the chemists who have figured out why transfusing patients with their own blood leads to better surgical outcomes?</p>
<p>There are many ways to save lives that don’t involve medical school. Your son sounds like someone who may not want to close so many doors this early in his life.</p>
<p>I don’t disagree one bit that there are more opportunities for a kid with high ambitions and med school ambitions at a “better” school than a so-so school. I don’t disagree one bit that the general atmosphere of being surrounded by smart people is different, per limabeans #54. I don’t want my kids going to directional state u’s either, and I like to think I’ve got some school snobbiness.</p>
<p>However, to the very simple question asked upthread – * by the time the student has made it through medical school and is now sitting at day one of residency orientation *, his u-grad doesn’t matter at that point. Med school is the great leveler. The residency director doesn’t look at his newbies as they are learning how to assist at a surgery and say, “Well, Bob seems not to know his basic anatomy, but wow, he went to Stanford u-grad. Suzie seems pretty skilled and quick, but she only went to Directional State U so I’ll still give the learning opportunities to Bob.” It is my experience that residency directors and attending physicians are treating all the residents as equal (like *****, LOL) and not paying attention to their u-grad at that point. They evaluate the person on who they are at that moment in time. </p>
<p>In that regard, it’s like how newbies are treated at military academies. I don’t care whether you came to West Point or the AFA from the best private school in your area, or an average or poor public school. You’re ours now, you’re all equal, and we’ll teach you what you need to know.</p>