Confused - Go For A Full Merit Scholarship School or Highly Ranked No Merit Full Fee School ?

Parents Forum
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<p>tamtiger, when I was at W, sitting in a class and not participating was generally not an option. We had few lectures, and in classes that were lectures–Art 100, for example, which was a popular yearlong art history survey course held in an auditorium in which each professor showed slides and lectured in their specialty–there were also sections of about 12 or 13 people with a professor (not a TA, there were no TAs) in which, believe me, one was expected to participate. I found it shocking when I went to graduate school that the women preferred by the all-male faculty were generally those who sat in silence in class. (Also, my graduate classes had up to 40 people. At W, if a class was over-subscribed, they added a section. My classes in the English department had no more than about 15 students.) The professors were skilled at leading discussions and drawing people out.</p>

<p>When it comes to grad school, I would not worry about grade deflation. Grad schools know the score. :)</p>

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<p>Tamtiger, </p>

<p>There is a qualitative difference between the education that a student can get at a school like Wellesley vs. an honors college at a public U. By “qualitative” I don’t mean necessarily better – I just mean different. </p>

<p>My daughter is a Barnard grad. I think that she got a significantly better education at Barnard than she could have gotten at a public college (I’m a UC grad so I have some first-hand experience) – but she has classmates at Barnard and Columbia who slacked off and have some regrets down the line, so it really depends somewhat on the student. I mean, does your daughter look for ways to challenge herself? Does she seem to enjoy learning for learning’s sake, not just a grade? Is she disciplined and focused about her studies? </p>

<p>I’m guessing that your shy, strong, silent daughter probably is not much of a partier – so you probably don’t have to worry that your hard-earned tuition dollars will be going to fund your daughter’s wild and crazy social life. </p>

<p>We were not full pay at Barnard, but it certainly was a stretch - I took loans, my daughter took loans. I have absolutely no regrets about funding my daughter there. </p>

<p>My daughter is a different personality type than yours: she is outgoing and outspoken, the type of kid who might dominate a class discussion. But I did see positive changes that I think are partly attributable to the women’s college – just a greater level of self-awareness, poise, and self-confidence. Obviously at Barnard my daughter was still primarily in a co-ed environment, due to the urban setting and ties with Columbia – but Barnard is something of a feminist enclave so I think that students there do get the benefits of the women-focused education. </p>

<p>I think that the financial issue is one that only you can answer, but it really is not a ROI question. It is a “what is best for your daughter” question, combined with what can your family comfortably afford? “Best” depends somewhat on your daughter’s learning style and goals. I also paid for my son to attend an LAC over a public u., but he did not do well and I don’t have the sense that he put a lot of effort into his education. He ended up dropping out and later transferring to a public college to complete his education. In hindsight the warning signs were certainly there – his high school teachers saw him as brilliant but lazy, and I think he was used to coasting through and earning A’s without putting out effort. </p>

<p>I really also think that, if you have the financial ability to pay for Wellesley without hardship to your family, then this is a decision you should allow your daughter to make. Talk to her realistically about what it means for family finances, and about what your expectations would be for her own financial contributions along the way – but don’t try to manipulate her by setting new and different terms than you would be setting without the merit offer from the public college. However, if there is a real difference that her choice of Wellesley might make in terms of funds availability for the future – such as your ability to finance grad school, fund study abroad, or her options for internships vs. needing paid employment over the summers – then it is something to consider at the outset. </p>

<p>Finally – here’s an exercise that I often use when trying to decide these sort of issues: project yourself and your daughter into the future, and look back. If your daughter passes up Wellesley for financial reasons – will you or she regret that decision down the line? Will it seemed like a missed opportunity? </p>

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<p>My daughter was accepted to the University of Chicago and Georgetown with Chicago as her first choice. We would have been full pay both places. She also got full tuition at Pitt. We told her that if she wanted to go to Chicago, we would expect her to take some loans and when she decided whether she wanted to major in a language or a science, she would need to apply for the SMART scholarship or something through the NSA to help with costs. She decided that she did not want to owe anyone anything. </p>

<p>She went to Pitt and graduated in April of 2013 with not loans. She majored in applied math and minored in physics and Japanese. She also finished a certificate in Asian studies. She was Phi Beta Kappa and graduated Magna cum Laude. She had some bad luck with a summer internship’s funding not coming through and took summer classes two of her three summers, so she graduated with very little experience. It has taken her a long time to get a job and she did think the Pitt career office was pretty close to worthless if you are not in one of a few majors. Anyway, she finally got a great job that she starts next week. Woohoo.</p>

<p>With the economy, our financial situation changed over the past few years. You just never know. Because she chose Pitt, we will be able to retire after the change rather than scrambling to try to find other jobs. </p>

<p>Time will tell whether Pitt was the right place., but DD is very happy that she has no loans and our retirement savings were compounded during the last few years. Good luck with the decision.</p>

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<p>Once she gains experience with her first job, where she went to school for UG becomes a rapidly diminishing factor.</p>

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<p>Factor in what? Her intellectual horizons going forward? The money in her pocket?</p>

<p>Even if you look at it from a strictly employment POV, certain schools have an alumnae network that keeps on working long after the first job. And Seven Sisters grads have a tendency to feel fellowship and favor each other in many situations.</p>

<p>This conventional wisdom about “after the first job” is less true than many people think it is.</p>

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<p>I wrote way back on another thread about a conversation I had with a colleague. Her sister graduated from Harvard, received her MBA from Stanford, and was unemployed a few years later. My colleague was making the point that despite being among the top in her classes, having great connections, her sister was laid off like any other employee. Her sister eventually found employment, but it wasn’t an easy process. It is an anecdotal example but I am sure it isn’t the only one. That is the problem. The wisdom that the alumni network will keep producing benefits hasn’t been proven by any cohort studies; if it has, please provide me the reference so I can finally see the evidence. For the amount of money that these schools cost, I personally want to see the proof before investing that much money for my children.</p>

<p>In my area of the country, the CEOs, CFOs, COOs, and other administrators I deal with are local/regional graduates. Yet, they are running multi-million and sometimes billion dollar companies. They attract private equity investors and venture capital money. When I lived on the East Coast, I followed the conventional wisdom that the prestigious schools were a ticket to long lasting success. I moved to the South, Midwest and found that the majority of successful people didn’t attend a prestigious school and often didn’t have an MBA. Every single patient I take care of, I ask them what they do for a living (as an ice breaker). Of course I’ve regretted asking that question a few times, but I have been floored by what some people have accomplished with very meager background and education.</p>

<p>I am not saying that the prestigious schools aren’t the best at providing an intellectually stimulating environment; I absolutely believe that they are among the best at accomplishing that goal. But when the classes are finally done, and the loan statements are on the way, did the school produce the best ROI??</p>

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<p>I can’t remember if I’ve already replied to this thread (I liked it when it was easy to tell). In any case, my older son wanted to go to a full-pay school, and I told him I would not take out the amount in loans that it would require, and I would not let him take them out either. Of course over a certain amount, I would have had to take them out with the theory that he would pay. We agreed on a middle of the road option. He’s at a very good school, where he got a substantial but not nearly full-ride scholarship. We pay most of the cost, and he will take out a relatively small amount in loans. I would only consider full pay if the family could fairly easily afford it and the student would not have a ridiculous loan amount.</p>

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<p>Perhaps that depends both on region and type of job. It does seem that posters from some areas are much more into school prestige than others (e.g. all of the NJ residents who want to go anywhere but Rutgers). It is also generally accepted that investment banking, management consulting, and law (with respect to one’s law school) tend to be more into school prestige than others.</p>

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<p>1214mom, I don’t think you would get many people to agree that taking out loans to go to Wellesley or Amherst instead of the Honors College at Pitt was a good idea. At least, not beyond a fairly minimal amount of ferderally-subsidized loans.</p>

<p>But that does not seem to be the case here. It appears that the OP knew going in that they were full pay and in fact planned to cough up the money–until the offer from Pitt came along. :)</p>

<p>It definitely is a tough choice in this case, though.</p>

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<p>What a great thread! I read the thread and it helped me a lot. I have one point to make. As parents, we want to give the best possible education to my children. We want to send them to the best school they can get in. It will eliminate the possibility of regret of what if in later life. Just my 2 cents.</p>

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<p>What kind of ROI do you want to see to convince you that it is worth paying X for the school?
ROI is also largely dependent on the specific major, less on the school overall.</p>

<p>About the anecdote of your friend’s sister who was laid off despite having a Stanford MBA, but the outcome was that she eventually found a job. I have a friend who was laid of and had an MBA from a second tier school, he was not able to find a full-time job in 10 years. I am sure that there are thousands of cases like his.</p>

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<p>Yes, she eventually found a job as an elementary school teacher in Harlem.</p>

<p>Ok, to be fair. The ROI comparison I want to see is between highly motivated students who are able to get into Ivy League schools but some choose full merit scholarships at state flagships while others choose full pay at the Ivies. Sixty thousand dollars are invested each year for 4 years ($240,000) per state student. I need to see the ROI for spending spending full pay for the Ivies need to exceed that of the flagship cohorts over their careers when cost of living is normalized and majors compared. If that Ivy ROI exceeds that of the flagship cohorts, then you have me convinced.</p>

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<p>You want anecdotes…My sister graduated from an Ivy then went on to Stanford law school. In the last 30 years she has taken time off to raise her children, to perfect her tennis game, and was laid off a few times due to M&A. Each time when she wanted to look for a job, her academic pedigree had opened doors for her.</p>

<p>My sister in law, who never worked since she married my brother, decided to go back to work after kids were out of the house. She received degrees from 2 top ten schools. She is now working as a professional staff at a well known Uni. After she was hired she was told where she went to schools mattered because her credential needed to be listed on their website and to their visitors. They had hundreds of applicants, my SIL got an interview because of where she went to school, but she got the job because of how she came across to her interviewers.</p>

<p>I am one person in my family who never used the soft side of my education to get ahead. I did it by brute force. On the other hand, I feel like I got a great education at my small, top tier LAC. It gave me a lot of confidence and attention I didn’t necessary have growing up. I don’t think I would be where I am if I have gone to our large public. As a matter of fact, I had a full ride plus stipend from the in state public. The FA I received for the LAC didn’t cover all COA. My father told me to go to the LAC even though it was more expensive. 30+ years later, I am still grateful that my father gave me the permission to choose the more expensive/better option.</p>

<p>As far as OP’s original question, your kid should go where you could afford. If you were planning to pay full fare before the merit scholarship, then you must have the money set aside. I would rather spend my money on my kid’s education than on cars, vacations, or pass it on as an inheritance. </p>

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<p>Agree that this question comes up time and time again. If you can afford to send your dau to her top choice school without it having a significant impact on your long range fiscal plans, then what a wonderful position to be in. I am NOT a fan of people going into serious debt to fund a dream school. But I am a fan of people who have the luxury of choice giving this gift to their child. We told both our s’s we’d fund undergrad, but if they wanted grad or professional school, they were on their own. One chose an (almost) full pay, the other took a full tuition scholarship. These were the right choices for each of them.</p>

<p>As an aside, I do tend to agree that one’s academic history can be helpful throughout their career, but again, it depends on the career. Mine has helped me. My DH went to flagship U and he’s done just fine too. So, it can go either way. </p>

<p>I went to a small, top tier LAC for undergraduate and the experiences there, the way I learned to analyze, question and problem solve in small classroom discussions has been invaluable. I would have hated a large U for undergrad, but it was fun for grad school. So I am also a bit biased. Can she do fine in the Pitt honors program? Sure. But can she thrive and blossom at Wellesley or Amherst, absolutely.</p>

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<p>Frugaldoctor- The only evidence I have of ROI from an ivy is my son’s who attended and graduated from an ivy, pton. He had several job offers before graduation as did most of his friends who were not continuing on with grad/professional school. He did not take the job offer (i-banking) rather he opted for med/b school. He was active at his undergrad as were most of his friends (D1 athlete, executive in his eating club)…so plenty of friends. 3 years out all his friends are now employed and some at their second jobs. What some of their salaries + bonus’ are for one year are what it would take me 10 years to make. Seriously.</p>

<p>I am not saying it was the school that did this for them, rather the students coming out are productive. They do the weed out process from the get go of frshman admissions. I can say though that the alumni network has proven invaluable to son after graduation. During his interview trek around the country for med school interviews, every interview locale had an alum waiting providing overnight acommodations, pick up from the airport/bus/train…and a voice of what the school was like. More valuable than the meet and greet. Having a common undergrad background the info provided really helped son tremendously come decision time. No need for second looks for him. </p>

<p>Do I know the percentage of how much the school played in the student’s ROI? No. But by contrast son continued at another undergrad after pton (does not allow double majors) and our local state flagship (NC) for 3 more semesters starting same summer as graduation with 3 more degrees (STEM along with the econ from pton) and many of his friends from high school and state uni were NOT working after graduation. Some were employed at the liquor store, the car parts store, the book store, hardware store and groceries. Doing the same job they did while in high school. 3 years out and some are still not graduated. Some dropped out already, to continue later. Many started off in the honors college as well. Not one single pre-med that he knew when they started out of high school is in med school from the state school. Students he met when he enrolled after pton did eventually get into med school, from that round (2) and (1) a year later. Did they have the same options he did? No, not at all.</p>

<p>Not even close. 2 were admitted off the wait-list and 1 is OOS at a public med school paying $75,000 per year for the privilege. Son had 12+ acceptances and is currently attending with a full tuition+ scholie. Now, his other friends from the ivy all received acceptances, with choices. Some at Duke, HMS, Penn and Johns Hopkins.</p>

<p>Do I know why? I can’t tell you for sure. But the experiences of his other buddies from pton in law school were just as terrific as far as ROI. They have attended and graduated from H, Y, C and have started their jobs. One graduating from H law isn’t even taking the bar. Consulting job because of his undergrad degree, the law degree is just icing on the cake. Same with the JD/MBA from columbia…starting salaries I will never see in a lifetime. An aggregate of my lifetime and I am still in my forties.</p>

<p>Do I know the ROI for them? I think if you were to ask, they could not give a price tag, because they believe their pton undergrad experience was priceless. At least that is how my son feels. He has done both (ivy vs honors state flagship) and in his estimation there was no comparison, none. Apples and oranges. However, it still goes to fit.</p>

<p>Kat</p>

<p>I just wanted to add/edit that within the confines of the question is it worth full-pay vs full-ride elsewhere that is really influenced by the actual finances to pay for school. Assuming the full pay student’s parents can afford the full pay. Son was one of just a handful of friends at his ivy that were receiving financial aid, the rest were full pay. And many at the flagship were full pay, albeit full pay there is $40,000 a year less for in-state. And middle daughter did turn down an ivy (not the same one) for a full ride+ at an OOS public, but she picked because of her D1 coach…so not so much the school itself (her sport was very coach dependant). She had a fantastic experience but she was not just basing her decision on money since the ivy aid package covered the same amount. She took advantage of what her uni offered but that also went to fit. Her major and department was a very small boutique-type which you find in the smaller LACs.</p>

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<p>The OP mentioned Amherst/Wellesley. Most anecdotes are based on ivy graduates. I understand Amherst/Wellesley are highly ranked colleges, but are they the same?</p>

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<p>Another thing to consider is did some of these Ivy-leaguers who have done well in these anecdotes do well because they came from Ivy League, or because they were admitted to Ivy League because they are awesome and would be awesome anywhere?</p>

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<p>But aren’t law and universities two of the kinds of employers that are generally regarded as being much more school-prestige-conscious than most employers (law employers with respect to one’s law school)?</p>

<p>Counter-anecdotes would include the numerous state school graduates working in the technical parts of Silicon Valley computer companies. No, this does not mean just Berkeley graduates, but including those from state schools most people here probably would not have heard of (including those even less well known than San Jose State), and one that is well known around these forums for its automatic full tuition scholarships.</p>

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<p>There is no possible way to know if one decision will be better than the other. None.</p>

<p>So many variables and so many different outcomes. </p>

<p>Since we only get to choose one path we will never know where the other path will have taken us.</p>

<p>You just have to choose one, move forward and not look back.</p>

<p>We naturally will state our decision was the best because it creates dissonance to think otherwise. </p>

<p>We can tell our personal outcomes over and over and it will not matter for this student at all.</p>

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<p>Yes. So would you want to take those options from your children. Did my SIL know she would want to work in an uni setting 25 years ago? Probably not. But her degree came in handy when the uni was the largest employer in town and it offered the best benefits/pay.</p>

<p>I am all about giving as many options to my kids. If they went to a top tier school, they could be a stay home mom, do volunteer work, work at a fast food joint, but then they would have the option of working at places where school prestige mattered.</p>