<p>One cannot even define ROI for another person, much less decide what an experience is “worth.”</p>
<p>Regarding the person with an MBA who couldn’t find a full-time job in 10 years, with all due respect, I wonder whether there were other issues that came into play in that scenario. </p>
<p>It may be a question of not finding a DESIRABLE job…</p>
<p>I’d say the measure of having enough money in the bank is that you are very confident that after retirement, there will be an estate left after you die. Otherwise, it’s risky.</p>
<p>Wellesley has phenomenal career advising and one of the most committed alumnae networks I’ve ever seen (I work in corporate recruiting.) I don’t know the Amherst “outcomes” as well. But at the end of the day, you can’t force a kid to tap into the networking opportunities, just like you can’t force a kid to stretch him or herself by taking advantage of the phenomenal intellectual opportunities that W and A offer.</p>
<p>ROI means different things to different people. But there are lifelong advantages to being stretched intellectually by being surrounded by people much smarter than you IMHO. And for me and my family, that was worth being full pay. We had observed in HS that at least one of our kids would have been happy to be near the top of the class of a less accomplished peer group, and so we encouraged that child to reach high for college. YMMV.</p>
<p>“The ROI comparison I want to see is between highly motivated students who are able to get into Ivy League schools but some choose full merit scholarships at state flagships while others choose full pay at the Ivies. Sixty thousand dollars are invested each year for 4 years ($240,000) per state student. I need to see the ROI for spending spending full pay for the Ivies need to exceed that of the flagship cohorts over their careers when cost of living is normalized and majors compared.”</p>
<p>This study never has and probably never will be done. But I believe that you would not see a meaningful financial ROI with that control group. These kids do well financially wherever they go. The argument for the Ivy has to be based on intangibles. For the record, I think that those intangibles are real, but I don’t claim that they necessarily translate into dollars.</p>
<p>Blossom, I find myself following you around CC liking your posts today. :)</p>
<p>One more point: the state college only offers tuition waiver, as most of them do these days to top qualified students, and you still have to pay $20k for room and boards, etc. Both private colleges meet 100% financial needs. Just in case you have some trouble financially down the road, the student can still finish the education at the private colleges without too much financial trouble, while she has to find money to pay the $20k in the state school. </p>
<p>A quote from cptofthehouse on the Is Prestige Worth The Price thread: </p>
<p>"For you it’s the $40K question. For some it can be a $160K question or a quarter million dollar question.</p>
<p>There is really no one size fits all answer. For some, the very experience of going to one school over the other is worth it to them. Whether it’s a perception or reality, who knows? An 18 year old often does not know for sure; it’s often emotion driving the answer.</p>
<p>There are families who pay a quarter million dollars for their kids to go to a private school with all the bells and whistles. Several of my friends are doing this. Some can easily afford it, so it’s no big deal. Kid picks the school he wants without regard to cost, and parents pay for it. Sometimes some discussion and splitting of the cost is done with the kids taking out loans, parents taking out loans, kids working summer and school year and everyone scrimping. Sometimes parents or students are willing to pay more for some schools, borrow more for some schools than others. it’s really an individual thing."</p>
<p>I couldn’t say it any better than that. This probably sums up my own thoughts. Fortunately for my D1, she wants to go to medical school. That makes it a much easier decision for UG and medical school choices such that keeping the cost low is the number one objective.</p>
<p>tx, Amherst & Wellesley are very highly rated. The Ivy League was a sports league, it does not include the best of the LACs, women’s colleges (tho many now co-ed so included with LACs, and top STEM universities. You will see students on a par with HYP stats who chose to attend top LACS, e.g. Williams, Swathmore, Ponoma</p>
<p>I have a friend whose DD was drowning at one of the Ivies, and I think she would have been much better in #1, a women’s college, or #2 a smaller LAC.</p>
<p>Frugal doc, if my child was intent on med school, I’d want him to save some $ for med school, and also go where he/she could maintain a good GPA. Of course, probably half of that group change their minds while in UG, so the lower cost college should have many other good programs.</p>
<p>Attendance at an elite college has very little to do with earning capacity. Personal qualities, goals, motivation, work experience, and work ethic are much more significant. The anecdotes tell you nothing, because students going into the elite colleges tend to be highly intelligent, ambitious, and strongly motivated before they get into college – so about all the anecdotes prove is that it didn’t hurt them any to attend the elite colleges. The alumni network is only useful for those who know how to use it – and those people tend to be confident and outgoing, and capable of developing multiple networks. College name recognition may help, hurt, or mean nothing at all depending on the job or industry. The most lucrative career positions these days generally require a graduate degree – so very often the undergrad degree is only a stepping stone to the more important degree. </p>
<p>The reason to attend an elite school is the value of the education, not career prep. If the OP values education (for education’s sake) and feels the daughter will thrive in a strong academic environment, then it would be a shame to deny the daughter the Wellesley education for financial reasons, assuming that the OP can afford to fund the daughter to attend Wellesley without hardship to the family. </p>
<p>Parents really need to consider these issues before the applications are submitted – they need to figure out how much they are willing to pay and let their kids know their boundaries. Nothing has changed for the OP’s daughter since the day she applied to Wellesley. If the parents knew that they would be full pay at Wellesley, and were OK with that last fall, it makes no sense to punish the daughter because she has gotten a nice merit offer from her safety.</p>
<p>For a degree in the humanities, I agree that Wellesley or Amherst will be more “useful” because their alumna/alumni network will help her leverage her degree (the “brand”) for a job. It’ll be much harder for a Pitt graduate, even from the Honors College.
The situation would be very different for a degree in the sciences.
I assume that, since both Amherst and Wellesley meet need, and you didn’t forbid your daughter from applying, that you can afford the costs without taking on loans (perhaps with your daughter taking on the federal loan amount and taking on a part-time job?) Or is the cost prohibitive?
Obviously you need to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of each with your child, depending on her goals.
No matter what, wait until you have the financial aid awards (you never know), then call and see if the decision is final.</p>
<p>
Repeated because it bears repeating.
“grad school” that is not funded = not PHD – but: MBA (after 2-5 years of work, mandatory), or Law School (only top tier are worth the investment) or Med School.</p>
<p>The professional schools are not the only graduate programs that are not funded and may well be “worth” paying for to advance your career goals. Most would have the masters as a terminal degree.</p>
<p>It appears calmom’s powerful argument has just /thread.</p>
<p>In my mind, this is a question that each family has to determine for itself. In our case, we told my D that we would be able to afford full pay at a private (with some family help we will not have to take out loans) but that she would be responsible for books and all spending money and that she might have to take out federal loans. She applied to 8 schools - 4 of which were LACs that claimed to “meet full need” but offer no merit aid and 4 of which offered merit aid. It turned out that she was accepted to 5 schools with FA and merit awards making final costs of attendance range from about $15K per year to $48K per year. Her choice eventually came down to her “safety” where she was offered a wonderful named scholarship that was almost full tuition and another college that would be $30K+ more expensive per year. Even though we all agreed that the two colleges didn’t differ that much in quality of education or even in terms of vibe/feel of campus, quality of life, etc. she had some valid reasons for preferring the more expensive option. We did explain that the difference in cost could pay for things like a car, summer internships, abroad experiences, etc. Since we had told her that we could afford $60K per year, my H and I felt that we needed to let her make that choice. And $48K per year should seem like a bargain compared to $60K! Of course, it doesn’t seem like such a bargain when the other college would only cost $15K per year! LOL.
Finally, from my perspective ROI is way more than a lifetime earnings calculation. I know my attitude is a luxury but I really believe in education for education’s sake and also the value of the residential experience (provided you can afford it).</p>
<p>In the end, the ol’ Flop Sweat Rule applies:</p>
<p>If you break out into flop sweat at the cost, it isn’t worth it.</p>
<p>No matter how you feel about the value of education for education’s sake, no matter how wonderful the full pay school’s reputation, no matter how much you or your child looooovvvvveeee it, a lifetime of flop sweat is not worth it.</p>
<p>So, if you can look at $260,000 as a fine price, one that you’ve got covered, no matter what happens to you, your spouse, the economy or your jobs, then go for it.</p>
<p>If, on the other hand, you find yourself adding and re-adding columns of figures on the backs of envelopes, if you are laying awake at night, if you are waking up at 3AM, if you are asking for opinions of friends, family, or on annonymous internet forums, if you are looking at that $260,000 and little beads of sweat are forming on your upper lip or running down your back or stain your shirt, if you feel the need to clean out the garage while thinking about how to deal with this decision… Then no, it isn’t worth it.</p>
<p>@eastcoastcrazy…
I like your name and your post… ROFL…
Nice one.</p>
<p>Thanks. :)) </p>
<p>Sometimes I think I’m just too stupid to know I should be sweating! </p>
<p>wow i had felt like cleaning out the garage…how did you know???</p>
<p>Each time we’ve gone through the college process, we’ve had schools on the list that we knew would be affordable for us, and then some that were not. A few times some merit money came down the pike, outside awards, so sometimes manna does drip down into those open mouthed and waiting. Between the time one gets that list prepared and the final offers with price tags are on the table, there are often a lot of changes in though processes, sometimes economic perceptions and possibilities. Maybe Wellesley looked like a good idea in the fall, and somehow getting that quarter million together was going to happen. But then when looking at the prospects of actually doing it, come May, when there are other schools that cost far less, and then the student has other input about other plans that also cost, it is certainly possible that it doesn’t look like such a good idea. We don’t have the full story about all that is happening, what has been said, what has come up. Parents grow , too, during this process. In my case, I 'm going to be undergoing this yet again, and It’ll be a whole different journey, and we’ll have different concerns. </p>
<p>It is truly a family decision, and one that is so difficult to appraise even later. I know very successful people with regrets as to where they went to college, still mulling over the road not taken, and also those who were glad to have chosen as they did even when things did not turn out well. We have to make the decision in the moment and that is right decision for that moment, not afterwards.</p>