<p>I'd say that better schools are probably SLIGHTLY better at teaching for the MCAT than state schools. The material required for the MCAT is pretty basic. Heck, high school teachers can probably teach for it.</p>
<p>The greatest reason for the difference in MCAT scores b/w elite schools and state schools is that elite schools have smarter, more driven students. Plain and simple.</p>
<p>Why take the tough undergrad route? I'll list three reasons (and yes, I'll admit there are reasons against it as well.)</p>
<ol>
<li><p>You're not sure what you will be in the future. Perhaps you've already bought a stethoscope and a catheter, but that doesn't mean you're a doctor yet. If you end up going to a mediocre school and decide to major in something else and not go to medical school, then you have a diploma of lesser value.</p></li>
<li><p>Med schools consider many many things, and though Sakky is right that USNEWS rankings encourage med school to be undergrad-blind, there is no doubt that med schools take more students from select schools even if they don't have the highest GPAs (ie Johns Hopkins, not much grade inflation, but still pretty good med school rate....and YES, I know they won't write a letter for someone below a 3.2). Not to mention that better schools have better average MCATs which leads to admission. What people don't realize is that the MCAT cannot help you, it can only hurt you. A 4.0 with a 30 will not get into that great of a med school, and neither will a 3.0 with a 40 (of course, with certain exceptions.) So think about it: you might be at the top of your class, but if you're not educated, you probably won't go far. Also, there are other factors such as extracurriculars, letters of rec etc.</p></li>
<li><p>Wasted Potential. Take a step back and realize what you would be doing by purposefully rejecting a better school just so you can get into med school. Has it ever occured to you that if you choose this sort of short cut to get into med school, that people smart enough to get the same GPAs from better undergrads will do better in medical school? Getting into med school is only half the battle to becoming a doctor, so beware of your "strategy."</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Anyway, best of luck.</p>
<p>GPA is only a small part of a picture -- how can they say "it all comes down to numbers" when they also require you to send in essays, and go to interviews, and submit letters of rec?</p>
<p>i've heard that (to keep the standards high, and its name high on the ranking lists) a med school would first automatically sort the applications based on what "numbers" applicants have -- this means applications end up in a couple of piles -- committee goes through the pile with best "numbers" first and accepts most students from that pile -- then, they go through other piles -- no matter what numbers you have, all applications get reviewed -- outsdanding students with lower "numbers" still have a great chance of getting in</p>
<p>otherwise, tell your son that he's at a competitive place because he wants to learn more than others, because he wants to be challenged, because he wants to learn how to study and manage stress, because he wants to train his memory and cognitive skills --> because jumping from a laid-back undergraduate program into med school might be a shock, and to succeed there is a certain level of personal preparation one has to go through -- surely competitive colleges mimic most competitive med schools better than party schools do</p>
<p>Med schools care a lot about GPA and MCATs, but not because of USNews. I have yet to meet anyone at a med school faculty who, if they think about USNews at all, considers it anything other than an amusing distraction. Med schools do not game their admissions to boost their USNews ranking. Med schools worry about other rankings instead, like amount of NIH grant money. </p>
<p>No, GPA and MCAT are important because they predict med school grades depressingly well. In fact, MCAT alone predicts amazingly well, and GPA adds only a little. </p>
<p>What college you attended matters little if any. Again, if you know someone's MCATs and GPA, then you know all you are going to know about how they will do in med school. It does not matter how selective or prestigious their college was. This is probably because those students from the "top" schools got into the top colleges because they get high grades and standardized test scores. They repeat this performance in college. So lots of Princeton students get in med school because they get high MCAT scores, not because they went to Princeton. </p>
<p>Cornell is not any more grade deflated than the other Ivies. Data about this is available online and has been cited on CC. </p>
<p>A very rigorous science education is about learning to be a scientist, not about answering a set of basic questions on the MCAT. Remember, the MCAT is designed for people who have done the minimum premed requirements. So it is no advantage to have done two years of quantum mechanics because there is no quantum mechanics on the test. The best thing you can do for the MCAT is to study for the MCAT. At many top schools (like Harvard) most students take a year or two off after college, in part to study for the MCAT, before heading to med school.</p>
<p>None of this has anything to do with who will be a good doctor. Undergraduate GPA and MCAT scores predict who will graduate with honors from med school, who will have academic difficulty, and who will fail to graduate. However, most med students graduate on time, without honors. GPA and MCAT have NOTHING to do with how good a doctor someone will be.</p>
<p>People I got news for ya lol...I go to the University of Michigan right now...and lets just say, if your not one of those kids who KNOWS they will succeed and get high GPA's at these top colleges, DON'T DO TAKE THE RISK OF GOING THERE!! AAHHHH!! lol....i mean seriously, not to discourage u and say oh go to a crappy college now...but i have realized that medicine is not a profession that cares for where u did ur undergrad, quite frankly at the END OF THE DAY, NO ONE cares where you did your undergrad</p>
<p>there are sooooo many cases where people from small local universities who got 4.0's and what not are doing just as good or maybe even BETTER than those who struggled their way through top universities</p>
<p>I am transfering to my local university most likely...and hopefully i will get into the early decision program for MCO...i realized...here is this really simple easy way to become a doctor, why make myself go through the strain??? of cours premed is always a hard road to take and still requires effort, but dont kill urself in undergraduate school, kill urself in MEDICAL school lol</p>
<p>I just can't stress that enough because now i have the experience to tell you guys that if ur not one of those kids who can sit down and understand something really quickly and not need much help from anyone else and are just awesome at all ur classes and got like a freakin 1550 on ur SAT or w/e....then don't both taking a high road of undergrad just for prestige</p>
<p>dont u think its worth getting the prestige later in life when you are a well know surgeon (like i hope to be) rather than get the prestige during college but then disappoint urself because at the end of ur 4 yrs at MIT or w/e u realize u need to get ur masters to raise ur science gpa and then u realize by then its too late to apply to med school and what do u become? a teacher?...cmon </p>
<p>everyone look at the long term goals here, not the short term temporary prestige...go for the route that will make u happy and successful in the future, not the way that kills u and makes u change ur career path</p>
<p>no disencouragement intended lol...just sayin how it is</p>
<p>Essentially, our friend from Toledo is suggesting that you wuss out to protect your grades.</p>
<p>He may have a point as far as tactics are concerned, but robbing yourself of a quality education is a shortcut - and those rarely lead to good ends.</p>
<p>I don't mean that you shouldn't go to a state school. If the finances work out that way, or if that's simply where you're admitted, absolutely going to a state school isn't a problem, as many med students come from those places. (Percentage-wise, they are probably at a disadvantage, but nothing that can't be overcome.)</p>
<p>What I mean is that you are out there to seek challenges. Your education is the intangible - the one thing nobody can ever take away from you.</p>
<p>By umardarr's logic, why go to a good medical school? Why not destroy the curve in the Caribbean and then apply for residencies?</p>
<p>It isn't just about the prestige. It's about what kind of person you want to be: walking away now because you think there's an easier road somewhere else should tell you that you're not meant for medical school.</p>
<p>There are easier jobs out there, jobs that make considerably more money. If you aren't in medicine for the patients, then go do something else. And if you are, then you owe it to them to get the best education you can.</p>
<p>In the end, just go to the school that you will be happiest in. Don't go to the top 20 school just for the prestige but don't run away from a good school just because you're afraid you won't do well. If you were accepted you most likely have a significant chance of doing well. </p>
<p>People often ask me why I chose Cornell for premed and why I chose to be a bio major. The simple answer is that I felt that's where I would be happiest. It's hard to study and do well in school when you're at a place where you can't find friends or you hate the weather or the surroundings. Yeah, it would be easier to major in something else (I have a 4.0+ GPA in non bio/chem classes so far) but would I love it as much? Nah. I'd much rather study bio for 6 hours a day than write English papers for 3.</p>
<p>whoa whoa whoa...i didnt say go to carribean...i say dont go to a top school and know ur gonna struggle and then END UP at the carribean...if u can get into a US medical school you are a smart kid no doubt, no matter what undergrad u went to....</p>
<p>its all about passion man, ur getting me wrong which i figured someone would do....im not saying wuss out, geez for cryin out loud i love UM and i am trying to figure out every way NOT to leave here, but u got be realistic..</p>
<p>who the hell said that if i go a small mediocre school i wont go to a prestigious medical school??? who said if i go to a small mediocre school i wont be a good doctor?</p>
<p>of course its about education, but if u are certain about the fact that u really love medicine, like really passionately love it, then what will signify how well a doc u will be is when ur in med school</p>
<p>as i said...i think its much better cruisin through undergrad, then killing urself in med school and comin out great then</p>
<p>i didnt say lets all go to the carribeans cause if u go there ur screwin urself over in getting into any of the top residency programs in the country like surgery or radiology</p>
<p>wow...</p>
<p>and quite frankly it doesnt also make sense to be payin 50 grand x 4 yrs at UM either....plus summer classes which is 10 more grand x 2 summers...</p>
<p>i think people get too caught up in the undergrad business....cause if u get a 4.0 at a small mediocre schoool, ur OBVIOUSLY learning the material and ur obviously trying the best u can....no one cruises through a premed track without putting in a load of effort</p>
<p>its medical school that matters the most not anything else....ive done rounds with so many docs and tehy all tell me....its doesnt matter about ur undergrad, screw undergrad, ull learn everything in med school and u start there so just try and get INTO med school...</p>
<p>im not saying give up on the top colleges cause im trying not to....but be smart along the way....no one said that if u transfer to a small college from a top college that u are gonna give up later...</p>
<p>it could actually mean that u are so determined that u will do anything to finally get that MD...dont be so irrational to say that anyone who transfers just cause its hard is an idiot...there are so many factors that play into it</p>
<p>obviously if u think u can do well at a top university and end up getting into medica school from there, then kudos to u...but not everyone is like that</p>
<p>obviously i got pretty ****ed off at bluedevilmikes response lol</p>
<p>I wasn't summarizing your argument as "go to the Caribbean", I was extending your logic.</p>
<p>Think about it. If you're trying to go to a school because it's easier for undergrad, why not apply the same logic to medical school and go to an easier medical school as well? Just as people tell you - accurately - that the "prestige" of your undergraduate school doesn't matter relative to your medical school, people will tell you - again accurately - that the "prestige" of your medical school doesn't matter relative to your residency.</p>
<p>I'm telling you that some may have a better chance at medical school - most people won't, but some might - by downgrading their undergraduate education, and I'm arguing that that's a bad choice EVEN IF it enhances their chances.</p>
<p>Don't get me wrong - I'm not arguing to go to a prestigious school. I'm arguing that you want the best education you can possibly get, even if it harms your admissions at the medical school level, because your education is the one thing nobody can ever take away from you.</p>
<p>I'm NOT saying that the University of Toledo is going to put out bad doctors relative to the University of Michigan. Quite frankly, I'm from the west coast and I have no idea what either of those schools are like.</p>
<p>I'm arguing that you should go to the school where you're going to get the better education, regardless of whether it maximizes your chances of getting into medical school. Usually they'll overlap; sometimes they don't. Sometimes that means going to a bigger name school; sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it means going to a school with more students; usually it doesn't.</p>
<p>But the goal should not EVER be to maximize your chances at getting into medical school. The goal should be to pursue the best education you can possibly receive.</p>
<p>ah....i get u...i guess we just hold very diff opinions there lol...cause i know i love medicine and i want that MD badly and ill do w/e it takes to get there....im not gonna go to harvard undergrad to screw up my chances for medicine</p>
<p>ur like those advisors who are like...go to college to explore ur interests, dont worry about careers and dont set ur mind to straight on one path too early....i agree with that but u gotta be realistic and have a life plan early or ur gonna go nowhere even if u do have a harvard degree</p>
<p>if i went to harvard thinking i wanna do greek civilization studies as my major..and i know i got the best education in the country from harvard, but i came out of harvard in 4 years doing what???? a teacher??? u wouldnt know...u have got to be prepared in life cause its a struggle and if u make the wrong decisions at the right time ur screwin urself over big time</p>
<p>i agree with u to a degree....but w/e we'll just have to agree to disagree, hahaha</p>
<p>and u know my dad is a doc and i talk to a lot of docs so its not like im making stupid random decisions for the hell of it...i get as much advice as possible</p>
<p>Well, let me continue to elaborate.</p>
<p>I don't mean that you should explore your interests. I happen to think that, but that's not what I'm arguing here.</p>
<p>I'm arguing here that even if you have a career path set - I set my premedical path after one semester in college - you STILL should not just be looking for an admission to medical schools. Even with a career path set, you should STILL be seeking challenges and the best undergraduate education - say, in premedical biology - that you can get anywhere.</p>
<p>Even if it hurts your admissions chances.</p>
<p>Bluedevil, I think you give some very good advice, much of which my H. and I have already conveyed to our S. We have told him over and over even though he thinks (says he's sure) that he wants medical school, the bottom line is when you are a freshman and 18 years old, many things can change in your life. You may find a passion somewhere else while pursuinig your undergraduate degree, financial difficulties may arise, physical illnesses or injuries may interfere, the list goes on and on. As adults, we have seen life deal too many unexpected events, both blessings and crises that change one's life's plans. Yes, its fine for him to hold that goal in mind, but don't close your mind to other avenues. Go with the strong education for its own value, not just to coast through with the idea of medical school.</p>
<p>
[quote]
im not gonna go to harvard undergrad to screw up my chances for medicine
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think this is a bad example. I rather doubt that Harvard would screw up your chances for medicine or anything else. In fact, I suspect it may actually be EASIER to get into med-school if you go to Harvard than if you go to Michigan, for not only does Harvard provide strong advising, but perhaps more importantly, Harvard is grade inflated. In short, it's almost impossible to do truly badly at Harvard. Getting straight A's is extremely difficult at Harvard (in fact, about only 1 student per decade graduates from Harvard College with a perfect 4.0), but it's also nearly impossible to flunk out. </p>
<p>Now, if you had used MIT or Caltech as your example, then I would agree with you.</p>
<p>
[quote]
i think its much better cruisin through undergrad, then killing urself in med school and comin out great then
[/quote]
</p>
<p>hahahahaha, this is one of the funniest things i'v heard in a long time....I happen to be someone who is "killing themself" in undergrad and trust me this doesnt come easy! ESPECIALLY after four years of screwing around. If you think that after "cruising" through college you will just automatically be a hard worker and know how to get through the riggors of med school then you'r in for a very unwelcomed surprise! I feel if anything else, doing a hard major at a prestegious school has taught me the riggor of hard work and has prepared me for the long nights and extensive material in med school and there is no way that English major breezing through Bob's University will be anywhere near as prepared! </p>
<p>
[quote]
and quite frankly it doesnt also make sense to be payin 50 grand x 4 yrs at UM either....plus summer classes which is 10 more grand x summers...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>y on earth would you be taking two summer sessions at 10 grand each! This is completely absurd you really never NEED to take summer classes EVER!</p>
<p>Also, I agree with bluedevilmike and mkm56 i am constantly amused by 17 and 18 year olds who think they have their life completely planned out.....you dont! As John Lennon said, "Life is what happens when you'r busy making other plans" ....this fits PERFECTLY here! While your spending hours on end mapping your life and by 11th grade you already know everything about the med school admission process, some HUGE roadblock or diversion might be in your near future that will make all your planning go to naught. This is also why i am vehemently against these 7 yr programs since they only shave off 1 year of school yet you commit to something so drastic and life altering at such a young naive age that there is no way you are mature enough to make such a decision....especially since most kids are so sheltered in HS at least in college you get a glipse of the real world before deciding that you want to go into medicine.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Your state medical school will defer to its own.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>UCs don't care, as far as I know.</p>
<p>u guys have failed to understand pretty much everything that I'm saying...maybe its cause I'm the typical arab kid who goes for medicine I dunno...I've given up on u guys lol</p>
<p>for some reason it seems u guys think i am some irrational 18 yr old kid who thinks he knows everything about med school admissions...if u wanna think that go ahead w/e...i never make a statement without talking to a mill docs and my dad who IS a doc is the best guy i can ever go to for advice...</p>
<p>w/e people..lol...4 posts and i barely got a point across</p>
<p>umardarr,</p>
<p>I don't think that everyone was painting you with an "irrational" brush. They're merely pointing out that many (if not most) people change career goals at some point. It's not always the best decision to base your life on your desires at 18. You don't know what will happen.</p>
<p>yea of course i agree with that, but there are of course people who do have a desire they want to go for....when do u expect to base ur life then? after college? u gotta do it sometime during college and im going to be a soph in college now so even tho im 18, i think its still right to have a good idea what u wanna do...thats all im saying</p>
<p>umardarr,</p>
<p>Keep in mind, I was pretty much you when I was 18. I had everything planned out, down to the field of law I was going into.</p>
<p>Then I went abroad, and in 6 months my goals changed tremendously.</p>
<p>You never know. Just don't base every decision you make right now on your potential MD. Who knows, you might get an MD and then decide you don't want to be a doctor!</p>