Course selection-elective choice advice for rising Junior S

Parents Forum
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<p>Good evening everyone,</p>

<p>My S is currently a sophomore that is getting ready to choose classes for next year. He has high aspirations for college and wants to go to a good liberal arts school when he graduates, with a strong desire to go into an artistic field of study. He is conflicted about what to take with his electives and he and I would love to hear advice from all of you who have been down this road before. </p>

<p>Set are his "core" choices: English (either H or AP depending on teacher rec)
Science (Chemistry)
Math (probably Trig/Analysis- teacher rec)
US History (AP)</p>

<p>He has three other classes to schedule. He REALLY wants to take Art II and Computer Art and Graphics I. Then there is the third choice, which is where he is conflicted. He has taken three years of Latin. Doesn't really want to do a 4th year. Could take another two years of language (French? maybe). There also is a Creative Writing class which interests him. Finally he could take Keyboarding which my H thinks is very practical and he could use. </p>

<p>My questions lie with the importance of that 2nd language and the two art choices. Do strong LACs want more than 3 years of language? Would having French I and II make you a stronger applicant or is it not that important? What about the two art classes? Will taking two be considered too "fluffy"? Should he only take one and take a "meatier" class? Personally I want him to take both- I know he would like them- but we both realize the competitiveness for getting into top schools and he wants to plan accordingly. </p>

<p>Whew! Sorry for all of the questions and lengthy post. I thank you in advance for any help you can give him. I never had to worry about this kind of stuff going through HS! We just went to the classes that were mainly chosen for us by our GCs and studied! Sometimes I wonder.....</p>

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<p>If he's not interested in the fourth year of Latin I wouldn't push it, and a couple of years of lower level French is a waste of his time IMHO. Avoid keyboarding and just buy keyboarding software or send him to a summer non-credit class somewhere if he needs to learn keyboarding. If it were my kid I'd encourage him to take a class he's geniuinely interested in (art and computer graphics) instead of just grubbing around trying to build his resume. Food for the soul and all that.</p>

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<p>Since your son wants to major in an artistic field, art and computer graphics seems very appropriate rather than fluffy. It shows his interest (passion?) for the field. I agree that keyboarding would be a waste of his time and would look too light on an application.
How about art, computer art, and creative writing?</p>

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<p>KandKsmom, My son, like yours, was deeply involved in the arts. I took literally selective colleges’ prescribed four years foreign language, four years science, four years math and was deeply concerned when he refused to take math OR science senior year. He also switched languages midway through high school and ended up with 2 years each of 2 different languages. His senior year schedule was: English, European History, American History, Spanish, Art Studio, Creative Writing and Religion. The outcome: he’s a junior at Williams majoring in art history and art studio. The irony is that now he’s thinking about architecture and will need to get back into math and science and then some.</p>

<p>Another comment on language: aside from what is recommended to get into a selective school, your son should also be thinking about competency requirements once he’s in. Many colleges require basic language fluency determined by the score on an internal placement test (or AP exam). Had my son chosen to go to a college with a language placement requirement he would have most likely ended up taking two years of college level language which, aside from being torture, would have cut into the courses that he was more interested in. He, therefore, looked carefully at the language requirements of his potential colleges.</p>

<p>I also wouldn’t recommend in-school key-boarding. Kids definitely need to know how to type and format on a computer, but this is a skill that can be picked up outside of the formal school schedule.</p>

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<p>Thank you everyone for your thoughts. Momrath, based on what you found from your investigations of the schools' language requirements, would a Latin placement exam be expected? Or are they for the world languages that are actually spoken? I agree that taking a language in college to fufill a requirement wouldn't be something he would like. A.S.A.P. I too think he would love the art classes and should take them. He is very interested in this right now and the department at his HS is terrific. I will share with him your opinions on the keyboarding. Creative writing would be interesting to him also. Have a nice day everyone!</p>

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<p>OP:
Agree with momrath. Fuller discussion in a PM.
:-)</p>

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<p>A bit of a contrarian view here - if Latin IV ?AP, is offered I would encourage him to take it, along with Art II and Computer Graphics - Computer Art sounds a little repetitious.
My reasoning is this - 4 years of the same language will meet the requirements of practically any college in the country, probably even if only 3 count because the first year was as an 8th grader. He could maybe self study at his existing level, and maintain enough of his Latin competency to pass the language exam at a school with a language requirement, but maybe not. Momrath's son's strategy did work well for him, but he had to modify his choices to suit his record. I guess I think that high school language is easier than college, and if you really hate it (which I would have - no talent in those areas), then you have the option to look for a college without a requirement or be in a better position to test out of it - which my daughter did. In short, go for the schedule that will balance what he loves, with leaving as many options on the table as possible.</p>

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<p>For all the reasons others stated, I would go with the two art courses and Latin.</p>

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<p>When my S was a rising senior, he flat refused to take any more Latin. He'd had a bad experience with the revolving door of teachers they had, and his initial real liking for it had disappeared.</p>

<p>I warned him that it could affect selective college admissions, and could mean he'd have to take a couple years of another language at some schools, but he was not dissuaded.</p>

<p>Upshot is, he got into his first-choice school despite the lack of the fourth year, and he is slogging through his fourth semester of a new language (spanish). He would not consider continuing Latin, and picked this school despite its extensive language requirements. I think part of him regrets that it turned out this way, but now that it did, i don't think it is so bad that he will at least be somewhat fluent in a useful language. It has, though, cut into his course choices, which is especially tough because he's at a school with very extensive Core Requirements, and this has limited his other choices.</p>

<p>Overall, he's glad he's at the school he's at, and he is learning a useful skill. Dropping Latin didn't affect admissions, but did affect his course choices.</p>

<p>NOt sure how helpful this all is to you!</p>

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<p>This has nothing to do with the question you asked, but you mention waiting for the teacher's decision as far as placement for English (AP vs. honors). Being that you say he has high aspirations for college, it might be a good idea to meet with the English teacher to stress that he is interested and capable of taking the English AP. Many school districts will permit you to make such a request. With his challenging core curriculum, the two art courses are far from "fluffy!"</p>

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<p>I have a slightly contrarian point of view, especially as you mention your son is interested in liberal arts colleges, not art colleges or university art programs. I would not take BOTH computer graphics and art in junior year. Instead, I would choose one of the two and then fill my schedule with an elective that colleges will consider to be an academic one.</p>

<p>My daughter, who will probably end up either majoring or minoring in studio art at a liberal arts college, took her science classes in the summers in order to fit an art class into her schedule in junior and sophomore year. Those A's in studio art looked great on her report cards, but when we started visiting liberal arts colleges, we discovered that many of them didn't consider studio art as an "academic" elective equal to say an extra year of science or an extra year of history or foreign language. In fact, several of them would be recomputing her GPA based on their own methods not including the studio art grades in the new GPA because it was NOT considered an "academic elective." When we asked, were told by admissions people, and our daughter's guidance counselor, that computer graphics classes would also be considered in the same light. This wasn't the case at all schools, but at enough that I was very glad that my daughter had spaced her art out over two years instead of having it all in junior year. Her junior year schedule was very strong otherwise, and, since she ended up applying either early action or rolling admissions, it was the LAST one that colleges looked at before making her admission decision. </p>

<p>The junior year transcript is the MOST critical one when it comes to college admissions, especially at very selective schools. As I said, liberal arts colleges in particular want to see a strong academic program and they prefer well-rounded strong academic programs. There may be a danger that a schedule with two "non academic electives" (at least in the minds of some schools) will be considered as "light" by some selective LACs. (Keyboarding will be viewed as a joke). Therefore, I think I'd lean towards taking ONE of the two art related classes in junior year (he can take the second in senior year if he wants) and then taking two more academic electives for the others. Examples of academic electives might include: psychology, art history, drama, economics, government, a literature elective, language, a history elective, creative writing. It will, of course, depend on your school.</p>

<p>The exception, of course, would be if your son was considering applying to ART COLLEGES or university art schools. Then, yes, two art related electives in junior year might be a plus. But, we found that liberal arts colleges prefer to to see a strong, well-rounded, academic program, even for potential art majors like my daughter and your son. </p>

<p>Regarding the Latin: Four years is always more attractive to selective colleges, but three will not be seen as a problem as long as he maxes out (4 years) on all other core areas. One issue he may want to think about, however, is that many liberal arts colleges require a language in college. Two years is a long time to remember a language without practice, so if he thinks he might want to take Latin as his language in college he should keep in mind that he may have to start at a lower introductory level. Another thought would be that he could take that 4th year of Latin next year and then take the Latin AP exam (you can take it even if the class is not officially an AP class). If he did well on the AP Exam, he'd have less language to take in college, and thus greater elective choice then.</p>

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<p>He'd had a bad experience with the revolving door of teachers they had, and his initial real liking for it had disappeared.</p>

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<p>Garland, this does seem to be an issue for Latin programs in general, doesn't it? My son has a wonderful (new) Latin teacher this year, and we are literally praying that she'll stay for the duration.</p>

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<p>I did want to add one other thing: when we pushed, one college said that they would be considering "non-academic" electives "in context for your high school." We took that to mean that they'd be looking at the school profile to see how many non-academic electives such as art students typically take, or are required to take (important since my daughter also had required religion classes each year) and comparing your schedule accordingly. I am guessing, therefore, that kids who attend say a high school of performing arts where it is typical and even required to take more art classes would not be treated the same as a typical college prep type school. But, again, that's a guess. Susan? Any idea?</p>

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<p>I am not a gc, but I have a senior. Carolyn is right about colleges dropping the art when they figure gpa. I think many schools only factor courses required for admission, and some remove what they considerto be "basket weaving". To me this is fair. One can always demonstrate interest and talent. I would rather see your son take art and get an A, like Carolyn's D did, than overload (another history or science) and get a C. I think his core will be challenging enough. My son had one AP and honors class in his junior year. He was done w foreign language too (took 3 years). He has not had trouble being accepted to colleges. If your child will be aiming for top tier or most competitive schools, then you want a very tough schedule with top grades. I think his core looks very challenging if he is in a competitive hs.</p>

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<p>Good points Northeastmom. You are absolutely right. And, I just wanted to make clear that I truly believe that every parent and child need to make curriculum choices best for their individual interests, talents and circumstances, not just for college admissions. So please take the issues I pointed out as suggestions, not do-or-die comments! </p>

<p>My daughter certainly had some holes in her curriculum and transcript, and, while I worried she would be better off loading up on another year of science instead of taking more art, it all worked out just fine in the end. Looking back, forcing her into a year of physics would probably have been disasterous!</p>

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<p>Carolyn, I agree entirely. I feel that an elective should be just that, an elective. The student should have room to go with their interests and take the class, whether the colleges count it or not (under the advisement of the gcs and parents). Not every decision should be based on college admissions!! Most importantly they should be interested in what they "elect" to take, and then do well in all of their studies. Parents also know how hard to push, and when to back off.</p>

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<p>One more thing, "basket weaving" has its place and value too!! :)</p>

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<p>Carolyn, don't mean to hijack this thread, but I have a related question.
My son's school requires a 4X4 curriculum plus 2 years of foreign language and ?1/maybe 1.5 credits in fine arts for graduation. They recommend study halls for their average students, the day is 7 periods. With my daughter it was never an issue, she took no study halls until senior year, when because of scheduling conflicts, she ended up with free common room (no "formal" study hall for seniors). My son is another story, he will probably not manage 4 years of foreign language, I'm going to push him hard to take 3. The school has very few electives, they do offer an AP version of each science, a photography sequence, yearbook, etc - no social science electives other than speech.
For a kid taking 5 academic subjects, does it look bad to take band and chorus consistently as your electives? There will not be any Ivies/AWS in this kid's future, but for his reaches, the strength of his curriculum may be an issue.
By the way, he won't qualify for any Honors courses (they only offer Honors Eng and Math to frosh, soph and jrs) and will have only one AP unless he doubles up in science, or improves his history grades.</p>

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<p>Very interesting reading all of your replies- such great food for thought! The luxury he has is that he is just a rising Junior and I think your ideas of taking just one art class per year makes more sense. He plans on "feeding his passion" this summer with an art course at our nearby cc anyway, so I don't think he will be too deprived! :) </p>

<p>As Carolyn mentioned, I would hate to see him be restricted to even applying to some schools (or being forced to make up for it in his college schedule) due to the fact that he bypassed Latin IV just to take an art class he could take as a senior. Up to this point he has done well in Latin fortunately, and "isn't totally against it" (his words). He has an appointment with his GC and his English teacher to talk over the Creative Writing class. I will certainly let him read all of your replies to help give him more information. You all are the best!</p>

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<p>Cangel, I just sent you a PM.</p>