Courses needed for admission-APUSH?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Carnegie Mellon University
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<p>Hi,
I was curious to know what type of high school coursework computer science admits had had in high school. My son currently is a sophomore and is interested in computer science. For his junior year, he has signed up for AP CalcAB (prereq for BC in his high school), AP computer science, LA, APUSH, Physics, and Orchestra for next year. I am worried that the APUSH workload will be huge and interfere with the time he can spend on the courses in his interest area. </p>

<p>So, if you are a CS student at CMU, did you take AP history courses (if they were offered in your hs)? The majority of kids (as much as 3/4) in my son's high school take the APUSH course, but this is probably the only AP course most students take in their junior year. As my son has two other AP courses, I was wondering if it would look bad if he took the regular US history.</p>

<p>Any thoughts you have would be appreciated.</p>

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<p>Although I’m not in CS I do know a few students that were accepted to CS. In my opinion I would have your son take APUSH because CS is extremely hard to get into and any extra course will make you stand out especially if the other applicants will have APUSH on their schedules. Here’s what my APUSH teacher told me the first day of scheduling: “A C in an advanced placement class looks better than an A in a non challenging class!” I completely agree with this statement. Have him take the AP course unless you are sure he’s going to fail, but I highly doubt that.</p>

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<p>Thanks. That actually helps a lot. While I am not worried about my son failing APUSH, it makes me crazy that so much time must be devoted to some of these AP history courses when a solid background in history could be obtained with the basic course. But if that’s what it takes to play the admissions game, I guess it must be done…</p>

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<p>Yeah I took APUSH and learned only a little more than the people taking the regular course. I recommend looking up what is required for CS majors to see if he has to take a history course for the major before you consider taking the AP Exam. I’m not entirely sure whether they have to but it wouldn’t hurt to check. And yes we have to jump through unusual hoops to please these admissions committees!</p>

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<p>If you really want to play the what matters vs what doesn’t game, i’d say drop orchestra</p>

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<p>Good idea, harvard. I will check the CS reqs. I looked at the schedule of AP exams for next year. My son would have 3 in the space of 4 days. I was planning on suggesting he skip the ap exam in USH. The problem is that sometimes the teachers let the kids skip a final if the take the ap exam, as an incentive for more kids to sign up for the exam. Hard to turn that down.</p>

<p>bco09, drop orchestra? Not willing to play the game if that’s what it takes. There should be some fun and balance in life.</p>

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<p>With all due respect to Harvard for helping out, Harvard is an incoming freshman and is NOT in CS or CIT.</p>

<p>AP History is essentially worthless to demonstrating a hard core schedule as far as admissions to SCS is concerned. For that matter, Calc AB shows a fear of taking Calc BC. If your school will allow it, any SCS or CIT bound student should be straight into Calc BC. CMU’s CS degree is essentially a degree heavy in math. The single most important factor for getting into CMU-SCS or any school for that matter is the high school program of study and demonstrating a challenging (relevant) course load.
Your S needs to have also taken two SAT subject tests-- Calc AB is not going to be much value to maxing out the SAT MathIIC relative to taking Calc BC. He will also need a second test in either Physics or Chem. That means getting rid of AP History and taking AP Chem or AP Physics C (not B). Admissions for SCS or CIT will be looking at the grades in Calc and Physics with a magnifying glass.
The orchestra is a nice filler-- but in less this kid is doing all-county or all-state, it’s not really that interesting either in terms of a valuable EC but it should be kept if your S is passionate about his instrument. If he enjoys playing why would he stop?
If he really wants to get a spot at SCS-- attend pre-college and get an A in the two classes he takes. </p>

<p>If he’s applying to other schools that are more well rounded than a technically focused school such as CMU, the you can risk the AP History-- but the work load doesn’t justify what you get out of it unless he actually loves history.
He should be in AP Chem or AP physics Junior year and then swap that out Senior year for the other one – absolutely.</p>

<p>Look at the results threads for the past two years-- you’ll see the profiles of SCS admissions and courses taken. AP history plays a very small role here-- but AP Chem and AP physics are needed.
unweighted GPA 3.8 or higher for SCS fairly essential-- although there are some exceptions – but if he’s lower than 3.6 – it’s a real stretch for SCS.</p>

<p>BTW to both Harvard and OP - there’s no “admissions game”. I don’t know what either of you mean by that comment. Your S should be speaking to his high school counselor more thoroughly about the appropriate level and courses based on interest.</p>

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<p>I just finished my freshman year in CIT - I took APUSH because it was required by my high school (yes, APUSH was actually required, not just any US history course!), and received a 5. Anyway, it may not have demonstrated math/science rigor to CMU, but it has saved me from having to take any kind history gen ed, much to my relief (not a huge history fan). </p>

<p>I do agree with ^, though, that math and science rigor (especially math for CS), should not be sacrificed for APUSH. And, if it causes his math grades to suffer, that would also not be preferable.</p>

<p>Also - I wouldn’t worry at all about Calc AB in junior year. I took Calc AB senior year (couldn’t take BC due to my school and its unfortunate math system, but that’s a story for another day) - placed into 21-122 (e.g. calc II), and there were plenty of CS freshman in that class. And that’s only having taken Calc AB by the end of high school, not BC, so no problems there, IMO.</p>

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<p>I didn’t take apush (I hear it’s hard and I’m awful at history) and I got into H&SS and CIT. I took AP Computers, Calc AB sophomore year, BC junior year and AP English Lit senior year. Calc AB will be a piece of cake if he’s already had experience in calc and that will make BC waaaay easier. AP Computers and AP English Lit are both easy. I think he’ll be fine but definitely don’t let math suffer, that’s a MUCH larger factor at CMU than history. Also, avg. GPA is a 3.79 for SCS according to their site so make sure to keep around that.</p>

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<p>First of all, I already said I wasn’t in CIT or CS but I have friends that are. Some schools require the students to take calc ab before they take the calc bc so it will not show a fear of not taking calc bc!! Also, I do not suggest getting rid of something your child loves for a school! There should be a balance between work and fun so I recommend keeping or orchestra! I don’t understand the hostility around me giving advice! If I gave the impression that I was an incoming CS or CIT major I apologize but I’m pretty certain that I announced that prior to delivering the advice. What I meant by admissions game is taking the most challenging course load whether you want to or not. You may be the brightest kid ever but if you’re taking “physics for dummies” (not an actual course) you are not going to make a positive impression on anyone.</p>

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<p>I cannot overstate enough how important it is that AP Chem or AP Physics are taken if you want to do well on SATII and demonstrate a rigorous relevant course load.</p>

<p>Not to mention-- taking CalDancers comment about getting classes out of the way. FYI-- a CS major needs 4 science/engineering courses and 8 General Ed courses(2 are English 101 and Tech Comm-- so 6 really). HSS classes are a piece of cake to anyone in SCS or CIT-- easy As (and many are actually enjoyable and give you a well rounded undergrad education). Quite the contrary, suffering through physics or chem or engineering – those are 12 credit classes (some 10) and these will wreck your GPA relative to the ease of an HSS class. If we are playing the game of - -“get some credits out of the way” then by all means - take AP Chem and/or AP Physics and get the 5s to get those classes out of the way makes so much more sense in the long run than trying to get GEs out of the way.</p>

<p>It’s much easier to take HSS GEs than to take MCS science classes down the road.</p>

<p>PS CMU uses a “unit” system over “credits” – multiply by 3. Most classes are 9 units in HSS, 10 and 12 in MCS, CIT and SCS reflecting the workload / labs. Many studio art classes are all workload heavy and are at 10 units.</p>

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<p>haha ya if orchestra is enjoyable then stick with it for sure. I quit band and played twice as many sports in high school, and that is arguably even less relevant. </p>

<p>I think there is something to be said for taking advantage of every AP you can, though. Some you will need, some you won’t. Heck, you don’t even know if you’ll be coming to CMU when you take them. Still, I took something like 11 AP classes in High School, tested in 9 of them, and came out with 9 5’s (or maybe 10 if some were actually two tests like physics). As it turns out, this gave me ~110 units / ~80 useful units of credit. This is now allowing me to coast with two 36-unit minimum enrollment semesters to finish off my CS degree in the third year.</p>

<p>Did it work out well? Yes. Was it perfect? No, actually. One of the classes I didn’t test in was my senior year AP art history. I told myself I wasn’t going to take the test because I wanted to focus on the more important tests such as calc BC, physics C, and comp sci AB. However, I really should have just not studied any extra but still sat and taken the dang test. At the very worst, I still wouldn’t have received any credit, but at the best I would have been spared the not so great experience of Intro to Philosophy (or whatever I ended up taking to satisfy the req).</p>

<p>Intellectual stimulation aside, AP classes are a very real opportunity to turn your tax-funded secondary education into college happiness and tuition savings.</p>

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<p>Wow, some great opinions here. </p>

<p>To be clear here, I think that CMU will probably be a big reach school for my son. I posted here because I wanted to see how those in the know about CS degrees at a top notch computer science-focused school view the importance of core hs courses in terms of admission. Compared to cc’ers, my son is not a standout. But no slouch, either. In his public school he has a 4.0 and is two years ahead in math. Students are required to take CalcAB prior to BC. So, mom2012and14, it is not a question of shying away from BC. He will take that senior year. I am assuming that the math course in his school is structured in such a way that going straight into BC would mean he would be at a great disadvantage. Thank you, though, for your suggestions regarding AP chem and Physics. Here’s the problem there: The science program in his school started with a general intro course in 9th, required bio in 10th. He is signed up for general physics next year; this is a prereq for AP physics. Problem is that if he takes AP physics senior year, he will not have had chemistry at all. So, do you think it is preferable for him to take AP physics and skip chem or take both regular physics and chem? I suppose he could take a college level science course through running start during the summer.</p>

<p>Californiadancer and smmbvk, harvard, and bco09thank you for your comments; they were very helpful. bco, I am familiar with the value of ap courses from a financial point of view: saved me about $25,000 on D1’s education :slight_smile: And, while I see mom’s point that the general ed courses may feel like a nice break from the STEm courses, I think my son would totally agree with Californiadancer- he would not miss history courses in college if the AP credit allowed him to bypass them.</p>

<p>“Calc AB is not going to be much value to maxing out the SAT MathIIC relative to taking Calc BC” I am confused by this statement. I didn’t think there was any calculus on the SAT MathII?
Do you know if most kids who take SAT2s in physics or chem have taken the relevant ap course? </p>

<p>Finally, what other schools do you recommend that are less selective? We know about case western reserve and U. Rochester. In fact, our public university (U Washington) has one of the best rated CS depts in the country. So, if he gets in there, he very likely may go. Admission to the major is competitive, though. So he might be admitted to the school, but not the major. Furthermore, admissions to UW lately have been flukey. A valedictorian of one of the seattle high schools did not get admitted (got a lot of press). We know of other seemingly qualified kids who did not get in. So, we need to have some other good candidate schools to look at.<br>
Californiadancer, smmbvk, bco09 and harvard, what are your impressions of life at CMU? How much time do you spend studying? What are the people like (i know they aren’t all the same, but in general). Are you happy you chose this school?</p>

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<p>Well I am an incoming freshman so haven’t directly had any experience, but I live in Pittsburgh and CMU is the school everyone strives to get into (it’s our Harvard). So I know a lot of people at CMU. Each person I’ve talked to loves CMU academically and socially. Many people complain about the workload, but from what I’ve heard as long as you stay focused you can easily get through the course load without being up all night. Again, I am not a current student, I am an incoming freshman with friends at CMU!</p>

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<p>I think Rochester is just as hard to get into as CMU. Case Western is pretty easy. Some top 20 CS programs that aren’t as tough to get in are University of Washington, Illinois, UCSD, Michigan, GA Tech and Wisconsin. </p>

<p>Sorry I’m not at CMU yet (freshman in the fall) but my dad was in CIT and had plenty of time to socialize and loved his time there and the people. CS is one of the toughest majors, but if he has a solid work ethic he shouldn’t be too worried. From what I see and hear, CMU people tend to be quirky and interested in what they do (be it their major, drama, art or anything) but they’re nice and it’s not the cut-throat competition as at many other schools. People are there to learn, not to beat each other out for the top GPA. I’m from Pittsburgh and I absolutely love the city and would recommend it to anyone. It has some of the friendliest people out there (though not everyone fits this category) and plenty of things to do and places to go. In fact, it is consistently ranked among the most livable cities, often at #1.</p>

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<p>I’m an incoming SCS freshman. With all due respect to mom2012and14, I feel she might be overemphasizing the need for all these AP science classes in admissions and in SAT II scores. I’m just one data point, but here are my experiences:</p>

<p>1) I took the Math II the end of my junior year, having completed a class in pre-calc. I scored a 760. I don’t think you need BC or even AB calculus to do well. I’m pretty sure I could have studied more for an 800—I knew and was capable of all the material tested.</p>

<p>2) I took the chem SAT II and got a 770 following a chemistry honors class. I never took an AP. I’ve had friends who had a similar path (bio/chem SAT II after an honors/accelerated class but without the AP). Obviously taking the AP makes it easier, but you can do quite well anyway if you study seriously.</p>

<p>4) As a junior, I took APUSH, AP French Language, and AP CS. My senior year I took AP Econ., AB Calc., AP C Physics, and AP English Lit. So I really didn’t have exceptional math/science credentials…I’m a very humanities-oriented kid. I did okay. APUSH was quite fun for me—I did well, I enjoyed the material, and it did help my GPA. I don’t see why it doesn’t help present a hardcore schedule: it’s still a rigorous class and shows some desire for academic achievement, even if it isn’t in math/science. I sincerely doubt CMU wants a freshman CS class full of math-and-science-only kids.</p>

<p>3) The concern about AB calc showing a “fear” of taking BC calc might be relevant, although I think this is common enough at high schools that the adcom won’t bat an eye. If you’re worried, you could ask the counselor who’s writing the counselor rec to note the school policy on math classes—“We’re worried colleges will get the wrong impression about this, so could you mention this in your recommendation?”</p>

<p>I want to emphasize that I think mom2012and14’s advice is well-based in certain areas (AP science credit is seriously helpful and I do regret, a bit, not having much of it) and I respect her a lot—but statements like “Admissions for SCS or CIT will be looking at the grades in Calc and Physics with a magnifying glass” sound to me like they’re portraying a scenario where math/science-heavy credentials are absolutely necessary/crucial to admission. I think it’s a little more nuanced than that.</p>

<p>You could try checking out UIUC, RPI, and USC as less-competitive schools. And perhaps Harvey Mudd, too? I almost regret not applying there. They have a very cool environment although they’re not really a “safety”.</p>

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<p>As the ^ two posts suggests, CMU is thought of quite highly in Pittsburgh :wink: </p>

<p>CMU is a rigorous school if one is majoring in a STEM field. I would say that CS seems especially intense (I am a mechanical engineering major), from what I’ve seen. I personally had very strong high school preparation, so I haven’t really run into any big struggles with my coursework so far (other than Physics II for Engineering, which was challenging, to say the least!)</p>

<p>I do spend a fair amount of my time studying, but it’s not as though I’m constantly holed up in my room doing problem sets. I also have time to be involved in activities such as Dancers’ Symposium, I work as a Peer Tutor, do some stuff with the Society of Women Engineers, etc. People tend to be hardworking, often very focused on their particular majors, generally friendly.</p>

<p>There’s not much of an “intellectual” vibe, which has been disappointing for me, but it does make sense given CMU strengths/the way students must often declare a major very early on, etc. Definitely leans more towards the “pre-professional” side of things than the “intellectual curiosity” side.</p>

<p>The other thing that I have noticed (disclaimer - these are things I have noticed personally in the courses I have taken thus far!) While I knew that CMU was not strong in certain areas, especially certain areas in the humanities, I wasn’t expecting the disparity to be quite so great. I have definitely not been disappointed with the rigor/quality of my math/science/engineering classes so far, but the language classes I have taken, for example, were definitely on a much lower level that I would hope/was expecting. </p>

<p>Hope this helps a little!</p>

<p>Oh, and yes, there is absolutely no calculus on the Math II SAT. I’m not sure what was meant by momof2012and14’s comment…</p>

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<p>Absolutely positive about the physics and calc magnifying comments-- that’s what the adcom said at our high school presentation – heard it not once, but twice – both S and D heard it- two different adcoms made the visit in 2007 and then in 2009.
Let me clarify-- it’s not that you need to know physics or chem to be a CS major-- but what these courses are signaling to the adcom is that a student is capable of rigorous coursework. Once a CS major at CMU, AP Physics will seem like a cake walk.</p>

<p>Our high school’s head GC does a presentation every spring to juniors and their parents (she had been feeding students into top schools for 20 years) and she also stressed the same for anyone serious about STEM entrance in engineering or CS. She stressed that in her conversations with admissions officers she said RD students had their senior mid-year grades in those subjects looked at very closely-- Cs – you were toast, and As and Bs would tip the marginal applicant in either direction.</p>

<p>Our high school chem teacher (who our family was good friends with until he just relocated to a private prep school) taught both honors and AP chem. He had students take SATII Chem after AP Chem-- rarely does anyone in our high school get less than a 5.</p>

<p>As far as admissions goes to CMU and most other top fields-- a science SATII is required. Most specify Chem or PHysics. Take a look at the college board scores for Physics C – it’s THE lowest scoring AP exam-- it’s a killer and similar daunting promise for the SATII in Physics.<br>
Who you need to ask is your high school GC and sciences teachers to learn about your school’s success on those SATII exams-- if your HS’s science teachers have a great track record – that is what is relevant to figuring out whether your S will do better on either of those SATIIs. (not to mention personal interest in the subject matter of one over the other?).<br>
SATIIs aren’t going to make or break an admissions decision UNLESS the scores are “low” – so ask your HS for the data on previous students’ performance.</p>

<p>Rochester-- do you man RIT or University of Rochester? Two different schools. RIT safety-- Uof R – not so. There’s also RPI - which is in Albany and often confused with these two.</p>

<p>Illinois and Michigan are HIGHLY ranked and more so than CMU for engineering. Not sure about CS. These are not safety schools for anyone - even in-state residents. There’s no need based financial aid at either school and few scholarships for out-of-state residents.</p>

<p>From anecdotes here – seems those rejected at CMU do really well at Case Western and RPI in terms of admissions and $$.</p>

<p>The best way to check out CMU is to come for sleeping bag weekend in November and January. If you rent a car while here and do a 5-7 hour radius around Pitt- you can visit many of the schools noted in this thread. University of Pitt is also a safety and you can take CMU courses.</p>

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<p>Thank you so much- all of you. I just wrote a long reply and cc logged me out and i lost it. Here’s the short version:
harvard and smmbvk: thanks for the perspective on the social scene. It does sound like CMU is a place where my son would fit in nicely. And I take your recommendation for Pittsburgh-it does sound like a great city.
Greekfire, your personal experience, though just one data point is helpful. I do think that you are correct about admissions being more nuanced than we might think. Harvey Mudd is indeed a great school. I think it is very tough to get in (“Middle” 50% on SAT math is 740-800)-especially in this area of the country since so many kids apply to the claremont schools.
Californiadancer, a mechanical engineer who dances. That is great. I appreciate your take on the intellectual vs preprofessional attitude and the disparity in quality of classes. That does give me a better handle on the vibe of the school.<br>
mom2012, I can’t imagine being able to get that kind of info from the gc. I asked once how kids did on the AP Human Geo and could barely get a straight answer- and certainly no specific info on results from individual teachers.<br>
smmbvk and mom2012, thanks for the info on U Rochester. I had no idea it was that competitive as it doesn’t have nearly the name recognition as CMU. That is important info.
Regarding some of the other schools mentioned: I must say that i am resistant to paying out of state tuition at a public school where the cost would rival a private school tuition-especially since course availability may impact the time required to complete the degree and since large classes are likely par for the course. I am not too keen on tech institutes because i think it is preferable to go to college with people studying in all disciplines (and I’m sure the male: female ratio at those places would not be too appealing to DS, either).</p>

<p>We will indeed try to visit some of these places next year.<br>
Thank you all for your personal perspectives. You sound like a really interesting bunch!</p>