CTOPS: Summer Class; Dual Enrollment; Exam Challenges; Mandarin

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill
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<p>Before my son and I attend CTOPS, we plan to map out his required (Computer Science) and general ed class options since he's new to the schedule shuffling game. I will be in Chapel Hill next week on business and thought I might visit campus to ask some questions but I wanted to ask the EXPERTS here my 4 questions first!</p>

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<li><p>I can find nothing online at UNC about HS seniors (or under transfer students) in dual enrollment at a local CC and placement. His IB English and IB Biology are both accredited from the local CC. He can get credit for English 101 from his IB exam but to my great frustration, his school would not allow him to take the IB Biology exam (though he has a standing A and I paid for the exam). I learned this AFTER the deadlines for IB and AP exams. His school's excuse was that only if he was an IB Diploma candidate could he take the IB Biology exam (grrr.... school political PR)! So his only chance of getting placement credit for his IB Biology is through his dual enrollment but where do I get my answer?</p></li>
<li><p>He's in a small private IB school (31 seniors) and was never able to fit Calculus into his schedule. However, he's straight A, unweighted in every honors/IB math class and is prepping for the AP Stats exam (probable credit for STOR 151 or 155). Should he take UNC's self-paced Math 231 over the summer? I ask because being a CS major (maybe the 5 year MS plan) and hopeful Business Minor (tough competition though), he has difficult scheduling challenges ahead.</p></li>
<li><p>I have no doubt he will place out of COMP 110 through his AP Computer Science test (though he's never taken the class). He has looked at some of the old UNC tests posted online for COMP 401 and feels he could ace the tests shown. (Scored at 7 of 7 on IB CS written in Java, says his self study class of Python is not challenging and is self taught in other languages) Can/should he request to challenge the class to get deeper into his major or should he just go with the flow?</p></li>
<li><p>He hasn't taken the Foreign Language placement test yet. Though he has had Spanish in grades 1 through 10 (through Honors Spanish II), he only managed B's even with tutoring. His teacher said he really tried but just can't grasp the language and his physician said that's not unusual for kids with ADD. So as for scheduling, I thought he might should try Mandarin/Chinese since other IT professionals have said it would be helpful in his career. For those who have taken Spanish and Mandarin, how do they compare for someone with a second language learning disability? </p></li>
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<p>To be very honest, I truly don't want him placed in difficult classes for his very first semester in the college world but on the other hand, I'd like him get credit for what he already knows. </p>

<p>Yes, I'm a Type A planner who's trying to get ahead of the game but I also wanted input from the seniors before they leave this forum... and CONGRATS and Best Wishes to you as well! :) </p>

<p>Any thoughts/suggestions/directions would be greatly appreciated!</p>

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<p>Honestly? He’s either an adult or about to become one. Let him do this stuff himself.</p>

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<p>^ Agree. Let him figure it out on his own.</p>

<p>However, I would strongly recommend against Mandarin for someone with a learning disability. Mandarin is extremely complicated (there are very specific tones you must memorize for speaking) and there is a completely separate memorization required for written mandarin. It is very challenging for most students even without a learning disability. </p>

<p>For Spanish, 203 is actually easier than 105, so if he gets 203 placement, make sure he knows all of his verb forms and go for it. If not, you can either go with 105 or switch to another language. Portuguese is very similar to Spanish (which can either be good or bad, depending on whether he can keep it straight), but the classes are supposedly much easier for students. My roommate switched from Spanish to Portuguese and said there were TONS of athletes in her classes who did nothing and somehow managed to pass out of it.</p>

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<p>Just commenting quickly to respond about the mandarin thing—</p>

<p>I’m actually going to advocate *for *Mandarin. I don’t have a problem with languages per se, but Spanish wasn’t really my strong suit. I didn’t like the conjugation, it took the fun out of everything (I only took up to Spanish III in high school). I have some experience with Japanese, but also took Chinese. Chinese is definitely challenging, but it is in a way that’s different from Spanish. It’s more rote memorization compared to thinking through how the conjugation works. I found all my Chinese classes really enjoyable. I say, let him experiment with Chin 101. If he hates it, bail. If it’s somehow eerily soothing, it is the language for him.</p>

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<p>Well, I’m seriously considering a Spanish major, so I’m clearly biased, but I still would caution against mandarin unless you’re absolutely sure what you’re getting into. One of my very good friends learned Mandarin as a second language and tutors Mandarin, so I just rely on whatever she tells me about how some of her clients/students have struggled. </p>

<p>Honestly, Spanish is a beautiful language and I personally think it’s one of the easiest to learn. It’s completely phonetic and the verb conjugation makes perfect sense. The problem many people seem to run into is that they don’t understand how the language builds. You have to have a strong understanding of the present before you can learn the preterite and a strong understanding of the preterite before learning the subjunctive. The irregulars are all very logical (buscar-- busque con accento is to preserve the hard “C” sound and would make perfect sense if you were speaking).</p>

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<p>From what I understand, Spanish is easy to get a basic level of fluency, but very hard indeed to get anything approaching native competence.</p>

<p>As we’ve discussed before, Chinese can be a bad idea if you care about your GPA because of all the ‘heritage speakers’. I’d imagine this could be an issue with Spanish, too. Less likely with French or Arabic.</p>

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<p>keepit - actually, heritage speakers are very strictly on a different track and you won’t be in classes with them until you take 490 and 510, and at that point it’s a non-issue.</p>

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<p>^ I seem to remember you thinking their presence impacted your grade somehow?</p>

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<p>Not to interrupt the language discussion but going back to the beginning… I DO agree with your sentiments of him doing the work and after HS graduation, it WILL be his job.</p>

<p>However, like I said, I will be in Chapel Hill next week and with the seniors soon graduating, I thought I’d get just FOUR of his questions ruled in or out now. With his graduation arriving in 3 1/2 weeks, he’s studying/working 10+ hours days, everyday, for AP/IB/internal exams and his senior project (building a liquid cooled PC). That is all his responsibility and I’m not involved (other than giving up my dining room for a PC lab).</p>

<p>I have read here several times that there’s little true advising at CTOPS so if I can advise or help him get a head start on his first schedule, why not? How many HS seniors have the first clue about starting down a variable path when they’ve been pushed down a fixed path for the last 12 years? I know too many recent college graduates who’ve had to go an extra semester or even year just because they didn’t know they should have taken class X or Y earlier?</p>

<p>If you ask him or his friends, I’m not a helicopter parent. Actually, they all come to my house for refuge and advice when their controlling or uninvolved parents are giving them fits or no support. They know I’ll treat them like adults (no babying but lots of supportive hugs) but if they’re wrong, they know I’ll tell them that too.</p>

<p>The best lessons are learned the hard way which my son has done (unless it’s a safety issue). Too many parents won’t let their kids slip or God forbid, fall which I think is a disservice to kids. However, I also believe an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I know if someone had helped me, eons ago, I wouldn’t have had to go to summer school to graduate on time. So, am I so wrong as a parent to help him to get started correctly on his chosen but challenging college path? </p>

<p>I understand and agree with your ‘he’s an adult’ point but until August, I intend to support, but not carry, him before this major transition in his life (and mine)!</p>

<p>Lastly, thanks for all the varying advice on choosing a foreign language. Sounds like HE needs to do further research this summer. He would prefer not to take a second language at all (due to his past experience) but since it’s required, he’s the one interested in Mandarin. His problem with Spanish was the conjugations and tenses and his many years of struggle has caused him to be biased. I have no clue but he believes Mandarin to be a more straight forward written language plus he’s an auditory learner so the tones should be easier than all the Spanish rules. Depending how he does on the placement test, maybe he’ll start in CHIN 101 and if needed switch to another language. Thanks so much!</p>

<p>Continue your discussion please as I find it interesting and educational. But I still have three questions unanswered… if anybody wants to help??? :)</p>

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<p>MerryWidow- I was not implying that you’re a helicopter parent but merely advising you to consider letting him navigate his academics from now on. Knowing prereqs and placements are the basis of class selection here, and it would be good to start him in the habit of understanding how they work. </p>

<p>Keepittoyourself- Why must you always be so negative? I imagine that Spanish, like any other romance language, would be difficult to achieve a native-like fluency, but there is nothing inherent within Spanish that would make it more difficult than French or Italian. However, The beautiful thing about Spanish is that fluency is more of a continuum than a binary. Unlike Mandarin Chinese (or French, or Italian), in the US, there is a demand for Spanish speakers at all levels of fluency (from Spanglish to Native) depending on where you are. I’m lucky from that my time living in New Mexico that I have a high degree of understanding Spanish and I’m very aware of the advantages of knowing even some Spanish in many of the southwest US states. </p>

<p>Back on topic- MerryWidow: If Chinese doesn’t work out, consider Portuguese. The classes are easier than Spanish classes at UNC and it’s a very similar base. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>My roomie is a computer science major in the same situation. She went into the class she was placed into (COMP 110?), but talked to the teacher about moving up. She then went onto the next advanced level and started from there. So my recommendation would be to register for the class you’re placed into and going on the first day to discuss moving up to another level. This is a bit risky because my rule of thumb for UNC registration is “Register first, get permission later,” but since he’s a first year, it may be better to work with the system more. </p></li>
<li><p>I’d be very hesitant about calculus over the summer. It’s accelerated, so I’d just be wary of learning everything for the first time at a rapid pace. For the B-School, you can take STOR 113 or STOR 152 (? Decision Models for Business) for the calculus requirement. I’ve heard Stor 113 is basically a rehashing of pre-cal, so he could easily take that class for the b-school and then pursue calculus at a normal pace on his own. </p></li>
<li><p>Call the office. I know that some intro science classes have placement tests to get kids out of the lab portion, but that’s all I know.</p></li>
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<p>^ Thank you AD! You ‘get’ it! Plus, that’s exactly the type of insider info we’re seeking.</p>

<p>I have no intention doing the work and saying ‘this is your schedule’. I just want to be his guide before attending CTOPS and minimize the hassles of drop/add. To me, it’s no different than teaching him personal financial management (credit cards, FICO scores, credit reports, identity theft, etc.) which isn’t taught during HS. My goal is to give him the foundation for class scheduling and then he can learn his own way after his 1st semester… just like you said “the habit of understanding how they work.” </p>

<ol>
<li><p>Maybe that’s a question I can ask next week. Other NC schools have cross reference tables online for HS CC dual enrollment but I can’t find one at UNC.</p></li>
<li><p>He had honors pre-calc (said ‘easy A’) in 11th but you’re probably right. He could handle the pace but it’s up to him if he wants that stress for his last free summer (plus he must have oral surgery/wisdom teeth and deviated septum/sinus surgery this summer). CS requires MATH 231 and 232 but the b-school minor schedule exempts him from math if he’s had these. And I pray he scores a 4 on his AP Stats so he’s exempted out of b-school required STOR 155. </p></li>
<li><p>A female CS roommate? Fantastic! However, I’m guessing she’s surrounded by a sea of testosterone but that can be a good thing sometimes! So she was placed in COMP 110 and asked to be moved up to COMP 401 after classes started. My son will likely be placed in COMP 401 (but he’s already completed the entire textbook) and believes he’s ready for COMP 410. Once a professor reviews his programming dossier, maybe they’ll move him up. I’m sure their paths will cross at some point if the department isn’t too big. He’s shy just like his Dad was but the girls certainly don’t let that stop them. They call him HotJ and the embarrassing posts they leave on FB… geez. He can’t wait to graduate and de-friend some HS girls!</p></li>
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<p>Thank you all so much! We’d never get these kind of tips from the departments.</p>

<p>ETA: Regarding #4, I erred in my OP. He had Spanish III (not II) in 10th grade; scored a B.</p>

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<p>You don’t need to place out of COMP 110. If you’re a comp sci major, you can take 401 in your first semester, as long as you have sufficient programming knowledge.</p>

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<p>It’s a fair question, so I’ll give you an honest answer.</p>

<p>I’m not really so negative as I sometimes seem on this website… I’m more of a contrarian. I always feel the need to disagree with what someone says. And since most of the posts on this forum are more or less blind UNC boosterism, that puts me on the negative side. You’ll notice that where someone comes in overly critical of UNC, I will disagree with them too.</p>

<p>But I am a very negative person. I believe in the Power of Negative Thinking. Seriously, I know that sounds like a joke, but it’s helped me a lot in life. I try to see all the possible downsides and plan for the worst, rather than somewhat blindly hoping that everything will go well. For example, I think (perhaps too negatively?) that UNC doesn’t have much prestige or reputation outside the South. That has made me make much more of an effort to make contacts and get internships in New York and Paris, because I’m not just assuming that I’ll be able to walk into a job when I finish.</p>

<p>But about the languages, I wasn’t meaning to be negative there. I was saying that if your goal is to eventually be able to pass for a native on the phone, you might be better off with Dutch, German, or a Scandinavian language, or perhaps even Chinese. A very tough goal in all languages, but particularly in Spanish.</p>

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<p>Keepit - I know what you’re talking about. I was responding about how curves and reporting average grades in courses might hurt people like me in upper-level Chinese courses. If 10% of those students are heritage speakers and I work my butt off for an A-, it’s true that to say I was in the 90th percentile is an accurate representation of where I fell in the class, but it doesn’t really tell the whole story - what if I were the best nonheritage speaker in there. That being said I wasn’t, but you see my example. :-)</p>

<p>Again, I can’t advocate enough for Chinese. Grammatically it’s an incredibly easy language to move into from English and I just don’t feel that that’s the same for Spanish. No past tense, no conjugation, no gender. It’s difficult to make the tones sound natural but to me that was a really wonderful challenge that I’ve dealt with it throughout college. There is also a ton of memorization of characters and there’s no getting beyond that. But being able to say that I know over 3,000 characters is pretty cool… I am obviously very biased.</p>

<p>Also not trying to hate on Spanish. If I were to take any language other than Chinese it would be Spanish despite my less than wonderful experiences with it in high school. It’s so relevant and I think it really is a beautiful language. </p>

<p>I’m procrastinating before my very last exam in college (happens to be Chinese…) in my secret study spot! This is so sad to me!</p>

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<p>bonne chance</p>