<p>adrivit -- I do understand that some colleges, Dartmouth among them, do not package loans in their FA package for families making less than $75,000/yr (or some other figure -- depending on the school). However -- what you need to do is to confirm that it applies to international students. I know that at Columbia, it does not. That "no-loan" policy for families with under a certain income level is for US citizens only. </p>
<p>As far as expecting loans that the parents take out -- I agree, I don't know of any top schools that use that as part of the FA package, however, most of my knowledge is from US applicants. </p>
<p>As others have suggested, I would call and speak directly with Dartmouth. I would suggest that you approach the conversation calmly and with the intent to understand their policies and procedures. Several of you posts come across as panicky, upset or uninformed of the information readily available on their internet site. Since it is easy to misinterpret tone both on a forum and sometimes over the phone, you just want to make sure you are polite and not asking questions that are unnecessary.</p>
<p>I would suggest you say something like: "I am an international student from India and I am interested in apply to Dartmouth this fall. My parents are very low income and I wanted to confirm my understanding of the financial aid policies. Would I be able to speak to a financial aid officer who works with international students?"</p>
<p>you do want to make sure to speak with someone who knows the policies for internationals -- and not necessarily the person who answers the phone.</p>
<p>From what I understand about Dartmouth's new policies, I do think the will be generous and you would be very happy with their FA package if you were admitted -- I just think you need to understand some worst case scenarios, also. </p>
<p>Best of luck -- and let us know what they said.</p>
<p>Adrivit - We could certainly find differences between each of these schools and Dartmouth, but in general, here are schools that share some demographic and curricular similarities that are among Dartmouth's chief overlaps (other schools to who Dartmouth applicants most often also apply):</p>
<p>Amherst College, Boston College, Bowdoin College, Brown University, Colgate University, Cornell University, Middlebury College, Princeton University, Stanford University, Tufts University, Williams College</p>
<p>By the way, I disagree (respectfully) with those who have expressed horror that the OP would apply Early Decision to Dartmouth. Given that Dartmouth is among the half-handful of colleges that have a policy of meeting international students' need, and that it has a track record that can be checked, it seems unlikely that he would do so much better on the open market that it would justify choosing College X over Dartmouth under any circumstances, if Dartmouth seems like his top choice. If the OP applies to Dartmouth ED and is accepted, he will be one lucky guy. If he doesn't apply ED to Dartmouth, or isn't accepted ED, he will be spending a massive amount of energy trying to chase the wisp of a chance of adequate financial aid at many, many institutions that he would not choose over Dartmouth to avoid a few thousand dollars of loans or work-study commitment, with no large likelihood of success there, either.</p>
<p>Thanks!!! Lets wait for the Dartmouth mail .... And even i think applying ED is wise. If I wait for RD and don't get in anywhere, I will be dead! But atleast I will have a higher chance of getting in ED Dartmouth(which is no less than a dream come true anyway ...) And I can always go to MIT for grad or post-doc or research or anything!!</p>
<p>adrivit: I believe (without checking; you should check) that you can simultaneously apply ED to Dartmouth and EA to MIT (and any number of other EA or rolling admission colleges, except Georgetown). If Dartmouth accepts you, you will be obligated to go there, but the chances of Dartmouth accepting you are not so high that you shouldn't be actively engaged in applying to other colleges as well. Given your situation, that should probably happen as early and as often as possible so that you have a sense of where you stand before the deadline for submitting applications in India, and because lots of colleges that award merit scholarships have very early deadlines for consideration for them.</p>
<p>"ED is binding, but there is an out if you can't afford it after seeing your aid package."</p>
<p>But only to apply to non-competitive schools. </p>
<p>"Given that Dartmouth is among the half-handful of colleges that have a policy of meeting international students' need, and that it has a track record that can be checked, it seems unlikely that he would do so much better on the open market that it would justify choosing College X over Dartmouth under any circumstances."</p>
<p>Not an international, but I can tell you that the difference among schools claiming the same policies for us (with an uncomplicated financial need situation, and all schools claiming to meet 100% of need) amounted to up to $47k over four years. </p>
<p>It should only have been "a wisp of a chance" of better aid - the reality was closer to a wave than a wisp. And only a few thousand in loans and/or workstudy? You must be joking, or have a special flare for sarcasm.</p>
<p>There are enough wonderful colleges where the OP can apply EA that I would take ED totally off the table.</p>
<p>With 2 daughters now, on maximum financial aid at the country's most generous & well-endowed institutions, I've determined that EFC refers to actual cash out applied to tuition/fees + board/room. It does not apply to incidentals (books, travel, personal needs). In some cases, an EFC of zero will still require the family to come up campus health insurance (or proof of alternate insurance); in other cases (as with us), the University provided that as a grant (not a loan).</p>
<p>The incidentals just mentioned (and as others have also described) are paid with a combination of Work-Study or other student employment during the academic year, student summer employment, and/or loans if those incidental costs cannot be met with employment or any "extra" that the parents may discover they can also supplement with. The point of an EFC of zero is that the student is not being penalized in terms of <em>tuition</em> and <em>housing</em> for earning money once admitted, to pay for incidentals. It's been determined by that college that family funds -- i.e., immediate cash -- are not available at all to pay for the institutional fees.</p>
<p>No student with an EFC of zero should fear that they couldn't get their freshman books, for example. There will be a loan which will then be credited back with student earnings (if possible), or which will eventually be paid back after graduation. Then in the following years, assuming the student might have summer earnings, those earnings could be used for future years' books, travel, etc. There may be also some opportunity to sell back, for partial reimbursement, selected gently used textbooks which will not be needed later -- just as there is for high school.</p>
<p>It is true that anyone traveling a long distance to college (between coasts, or overseas) will have higher incidental costs. For those traveling for the first time to cold weather, that will be a non-reimbursable start-up cost as well. (Wardrobe.)</p>
<p>I agree with mini (agreement #5 ;)) that ED is not a good idea for anyone needing significant financial aid. Some students who are adventurous will try it between peer institutions & hope the comparison will provide them negotiating room, but we found that approach too risky ourselves.</p>
<p>mini, the OP is in something of an all-or-nothing situation. Either he gets sufficient financial aid that he can handle on his own, or he can't do it. In his case "sufficient financial aid" would amount to 100% financing without federal loan money. So he's either got to get what amounts to a full-ride merit scholarship somewhere -- certainly a possibility, but not necessarily at any of the colleges he's mentioned, and not a possibility anyone could count on -- or he has to be accepted at one of the few colleges, including Dartmouth, that meets 100% of international need without excessive loans.</p>
<p>Given Dartmouth's announced policies, I don't think there's a whole lot of unpredictability in its financial aid package. He will be required to work, he may be asked to borrow some of his room and board cost. Maybe one of the other colleges that meets 100% of need would give him a better deal, true, but first he would have to get accepted, and all of them are the longest of long shots. Maybe he could get a fully funded full-ride scholarship elsewhere, but the odds on that are even longer (and handling the mechanics of most schools' processes from India will be a challenge).</p>
<p>Given that situation, it is conceivable to me -- "conceivable", I haven't thought about it enough to be certain, and I don't plan to -- that the OP's best chance for a realistic opportunity for a high-quality college in the U.S. is to apply ED to Dartmouth. An ED application to Dartmouth is almost certainly the best odds of being accepted at a 100%-of-international-need college, and the odds of both getting accepted and doing better elsewhere may not be good enough to give that up. </p>
<p>In your case, you knew to a reasonable certainty that your daughter would have the opportunity to compare 100%-of-need packages. The OP doesn't have that certainty at all. (Your daughter also, I believe, decided to attend a college that does not limit itself to meeting need. I don't know if that factored into your $11,500/year difference.) Furthermore, given its explicit policies, I think it would be difficult in the OP's case for Dartmouth to be as high above ANYBODY as $10,000/year.</p>
<p>"Given Dartmouth's announced policies, I don't think there's a whole lot of unpredictability in its financial aid package."</p>
<p>My experience tells me there is a huge amount of unpredictability - and unpredictability that may seem small to you may be huge to the OP.</p>
<p>As to my d., her college met 100% of need. As did all the others, with a difference of up to $47k over four years (or three quarters of our annual income at the time.) The only "merit" advantage she received was that, for half of tuition, it was not subject to tuition inflation after the first year.</p>
<p>I think the ED strategy for Dartmouth is the strategy most likely to end up with OP not attending ANY prestige college. He gets admitted, meeting Dartmouth's view of 100% of his need, it isn't sufficient from his or his family's point of view, and Dartmouth releases him to apply only to "non-competitive" schools.</p>
<p>JHS ... Thank you so much!! I think my position is clear to everyone ... Dartmouth in an IVY ... it can't be unpredictable ... it has a reputation to withhold and it can't slaughter an international who has so much commitment to the school that he applied ED. I hope this much 'feeling' is in its fin aid!!</p>
<p>" Dartmouth in an IVY ... it can't be unpredictable."</p>
<p>It is VERY unpredictable for you - given that what are small differences to them are big ones given your family - and being an Ivy has absolutely nothing to do with it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I agree with mini (agreement #5 ) that ED is not a good idea for anyone needing significant financial aid.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Except for students who are quite certain that the EFC will be close to zero and that the Profile/CSS number will not be subject to meaningful changes. </p>
<p>Fwiw, the information about "packages" offered in ED, EA, or RD is ... out there. Between the schools' website and details posted on public forumns, there should hardly be any surprise fot anyone who does his or her homework with a modicum of diligence. </p>
<p>Of course, a "modicum of diligence" requires MUCH more than simply playing with an online calculator and grossly guesstimating every entry. </p>
<p>In the case of an international with little parental income or assets, the scope of the "research" will be quite restricted as the number of schools that adopted the misguided policies of meeting 100% of the need of internationals is quite small. The differences in packages for internationals (not all work permitted, no summer earning expectations, different travel budgets, holiday room/board) are all available to anyone with the desire of finding out the details.</p>
<p>mini, you're not paying close enough attention to the nuances here.</p>
<p>Four years ago, you were right smack in the wheelhouse of people for whom subtle differences in financial aid policies could have a huge impact. And your daughter had a lot of opportunity to compare financial aid packages, because she was accepted at lots of institutions that met "need". Which you knew would happen.</p>
<p>Today, at Dartmouth, a family with the income you say you had then (and no significant savings -- I'm betting you had some, or at least some home equity, to account for part of that variation) would pay $0 for tuition. No loans. Non-tuition expenses might be handled with a package of grants, loans, and work-study. But even if it were all loans and work-study -- and if what the OP says is true, that seems unlikely -- it could not be $11,500/year more than anyone else's grants package, because there aren't $11,500 of costs to go into the hopper. Furthermore, since the OP won't qualify for federally guaranteed loans, and will be unfinanceable conventionally, if Dartmouth wants him to borrow it will still have to fund the loan itself. Finally, the OP can't count on the opportunity your daughter had to compare numerous 100%-of-need packages, because there aren't that many institutions that give 100%-of-need packages to international students, or that accept more than a trivial number of international students with significant need, and competition for places in them is fierce. The OP will be extremely fortunate if he gets to compare ONE 100%-of-need package to the cost (and benefit) of going to college in India. If Dartmouth accepts him and is willing to lend him $40,000 so he can attend, that wouldn't be a crazy proposition from his standpoint, even if that is 1000% of his family's annual income. ESPECIALLY, if that is 1000% of his family's annual income.</p>
<p>Yeah maybe some people(please, no offense meant at all ...) are not taking into consideration that Dartmouth's policies have changed. I just don't care what I have to do for my education ... I don't care if two months worth of salary goes into paying debt(which will certainly not be the case). I am just sure that my Dartmouth education will give me back way more than that. And I don't want to be a burden on my family. That's it. Considering all these possibilities ... I think applying ED to Dartmouth is the best possible option. And I am sure Dartmouth will love such a committed int'l!! </p>
<p>PS. Maybe the last sentence was a bit optimistic!!</p>
<p>"Except for students who are quite certain that the EFC will be close to zero and that the Profile/CSS number will not be subject to meaningful changes."</p>
<p>Xiggi, like mini, my reference point is the student's own words in Post #1 -- which his most recent post appears now to contradict. ('it doesn't matter what the cost will be: it will be worth it, repayable, etc.')</p>
<p>The Student <em>knows</em> the EFC will be close to zero. The student objected to the out-of-pocket incidentals, which will not be covered, Dartmouth acknowledged. I actually am not sure at this point what the student is "comparing": an EFC of zero with incidentals AT ALL CAMPUSES carried at least somewhat by the student, in some fashion? Or an EFC of zero (tuition/housing) on some campuses vs. an EFC of >zero at other campuses?</p>
<p>There is no getting around paying for books, travel, clothes, toiletries, college supplies, an occasional meal out or modestly priced entertainment. To my knowledge, no college in the USA provides for this as a non-loaned <em>grant</em> without responsibility. Both the title of the thread & the fuller message in the OP would indicate a degree of righteous indignation for that. But what's to "compare" in that? In the FA packages, many/most colleges estimate for the family what those incidental costs might be (& very conservatively, very frugally), but again, those are not part of the granted offer, nor would they likely be up for "negotiation."</p>
<p>Don't worry about the ED application. I totally agree with JHS. It is your best shot at an acceptance (although the odds are still long) and may well be your best bet at getting an affordable education at a top tier school in America. Dartmouth will not "punish" a student coming from third world poverty (by American standards) if they can't afford to come after getting their financial aid award. None of these schools are that crass. And they're not going to black-ball you at "competitive schools."</p>
<p>That possibility or threat or whatever you want to call it, is directed at people who are trying to get the advantage of an ED app (there is little or no advantage in non-binding EA at selective colleges), but also want to shop for deals at similar schools. You can't have it both ways. But that is clearly not what you're doing. You will either be able to handle it financially (if your get accepted), or you won't. Nothing cynical about it.</p>
<p>I don't think being unnecessarily conservative about applying ED makes sense given your situation. I mean you are hoping for a bolt of lightening here, and you're not likely to get it by lowering your odds even further.</p>
<p>OP, Me thinks that you have decreased your odds by making this inquiry/comment and the replies. Whatever the conclusion or nonconclusion will encourage other prospective 100% need and lessor to make an application to D on the hope that "committment" is worth the money. </p>
<p>You should have just make the decision and not ask or seek advice. The thread on "which school is generous with FA" promotes more students to apply to ever decreasing dollars. </p>
<p>It is easy for D to state their friendliness but whether they really intend to practice it, is another question that those on the outside will never discover. </p>
<p>My S has a superb FA package from Dartmouth. It does not include loans for him or for us, but it does include work study and an expected contribution from summer job and from modest financial assets in <em>his</em> name.</p>
<p>My D's, both of them, received outstanding FA packages from 2 different categories of Universities with 2 different student body makeups, locations, budgets, etc. One is an Ivy, though not D. It would not have included loans had we always been able to meet the contribution with summer jobs & work study. Because of distance & a few other things such as timing/age for summer jobs, those student work contributions have partly but not entirely carried all expenses. However, those occasional loans have been small and well worth it. If one does not have to travel far, and/or one travels infrequently home, & one has a winter wardrobe already, and one's computer never breaks down (etc.), a zero-EFC student can theoretically attend all 4 years without a single loan. Personally, though, I have yet to meet anyone in our location, or an Internat'l student, who has been able to do that. The U's assume that you will travel "once a year."</p>
<blockquote>
<p>I think applying ED to Dartmouth is the best possible option. And I am sure Dartmouth will love such a committed int'l>></p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Lots of international students apply ED to Dartmouth. The do NOT all get accepted. They ALL have the commitment to apply to Dartmouth ED. Clearly, they all have made a decision that if accepted, they will attend. Still, they do NOT all get accepted. </p>
<p>Even IF you decide to apply ED to Dartmouth, please have other applications ready to send.</p>
<p>Also, if you are that committed to Dartmouth in the ED round, why can't you show the same commitment in the RD round. The chance of acceptance is only a tiny tad better in the ED round.</p>