<p>Good post, friedokra. :)</p>
<p>Let's face it: anyone who knows Dartmouth knows it's amazing. It commands huge respect among those familiar with colleges.</p>
<p>And please don't think chances threads are narcissistic. For those of us with extremely weak guidance departments, it is some of the only advice we can get. My counselor only knows about state schools, is unfamiliar with the common app, and thinks st. louis university and washu in st louis are the same school. I need to hear from outside sources, and I'm certainly not fishing for compliments.</p>
<p>BMWDan....fine...if you are not fishing for compliments and your college counselor is a wet noodle, I can empathize. Moreover, its not just what your counselor knows, but WHO they know.....that makes a big difference, particularly at places like Dartmouth, where knowing someone on the inside is a big help.</p>
<p>I am not saying YOU are fishing for compliments, but many kids on CC do just that. Posting every single detail about themselves and their EC's in the hopes some Admissions Officer is perusing here (and they do) and will select them out of the pile. Its sickening. Brown nosing narcissistic brats.</p>
<p>The really best way to "chance" your application is to simply look at the schools stats, particularly their own published Common Data Set, usually deep on their own websites...because that is where they are least likely to lie, since its published to the federal government....though some are not past lying on that form as well. Look at the stats and see where you fit.</p>
<p>But I can tell you that even "match" schools reject kids every year for quirky reasons and "reach" schools admit more "reach kids" than you might suspect, especially if they have legacy or a lot of money or celebrity.</p>
<p>Its still a bit of a crap shoot. Some kids are very lucky and get admitted to all their choices, some kids are unlucky and get hammered, and still others have a mix of results. My D was in the latter camp. We wiped our tears and moved on. Then when we learned that some of these favorite schools admitted some kids who had lower stats, and some questionable personal behavior but LOTS of money, we said to ourselves, "if that is whom they prefer, then I am glad I am not going there. Its obvious they didnt do a very good job of looking at their applications and the candidates."</p>
<p>We have NO problem with a school who says, "our standards are X and we are sorry, but below that figure your chances are gravely diminished" and then STICK by that standard. Fine. You either cut the mustard or you don't, regardless of how silly the SAT is. Its when they say they have high standards, particularly when they say they have a strict honor code, and then do something else and admit kids with questionable character but big bucks or have legacy connections that ****es us off. Whatever. </p>
<p>Not saying that Dartmouth does that however.</p>
<p>Also, you want to look in the mirror and ask yourself why you really want to go somewhere. If its purely the prestige, then think real hard about that, because you may be sorely disappointed when you get there, if admitted, because you may not fit in or there may be some other problem.</p>
<p>What is best is that a college picks kids who they think will thrive in their environment and who offer something to the school. Not just kids with the best scores or who have legacy.</p>
<p>If Dartmouth is for you, you have a good match for them with stats and class preparation and the "fit and feel" of the student body, then I say go for it and good luck!</p>
<p>friedokra:</p>
<p>luv the sn, btw, but the CDS is NOT published by the federal government. If I recall, it started as a way for USNews to collect its data uniformly. While Dartmouth does put its CDS online, UPenn does not, nor do several schools close to your heart. </p>
<p>
[quote]
in the hopes some Admissions Officer is perusing here (and they do) and will select them out of the pile...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I've been around for a few years, and I gotta say I have never seen a post that would match that description. On the contrary, many kids post stuff that they would not/should not want an Adcom to read....</p>
<p>Friedokra,</p>
<p>If I understand what specific experience you are coming from (based on other posts you have made), it seems to me that part of the explanation of unpredictable and unfair admissions results is not so much that $ and connections talk, but that certain particular schools which are widely known to produce these erratic results, appear (at least as accused by many) to reject/waitlist large numbers of extremely qualfied students they feel are likely to pass on them in favor of another school (to bolster their yield and lower their acceptance rate). Many have identified this as an explanation for the inconsistency in acceptances relative to strenth of applicants. THOUSANDS of students have been victims of that. It is wholly unfair (and I agree, its that institution's loss) but its not necessarily a matter of money, and connections. </p>
<p>I think your beef in that regard is actually not with Dartmouth. I wonder if your focus on Dartmouth (other posts demonstrate your small regard for its academics) has to do with some personal experience with some "narcissitic brat", gloating, or judgemental type student who already attends, or will attend, D. I can see why you would want to admonish students who adopt that attitude. But its not an attitude you can extrapolate generally to students at D, nor to the students posting on this board. Incoming students who might have that attitude will probabably find it does not go over well. </p>
<p>Many of the points you make are worth reading - on EVERY board. Many excellent educational experiences may overlooked, and some bad decisions will potentially be made, because of prestige mongering. No one should doubt that brilliant faculty and great academics can be found at many institutions, nor that very successful people come from every sort of educational background. On the other hand, students have dream schools, which, maybe especially on CC, tend to be in the top tiers. Many times - I think in your own child's selections- they are very selective schools which are also good fits. </p>
<p>Since admission to these schools is also more likely to be a "crap shoot", hopefully, as has been admonished over and over on CC, students will create a list of schools to apply to that has good matches and safties. But, the list should also include a dream school or two which is a good fits, and for some, that means highly selective schools.</p>
<p>I can definitely say that I have walked away from some top schools because they weren't a good fit for me. Others, however, would fit like a glove, and it is these that I will be applying to. I loath rankings, but still many of my favorite colleges are in the upper ranks because other students like the experience that college has to offer and choose it over other schools.</p>
<p>I pity anyone who is attending a school just for prestige. That has to be terrible for them.</p>
<p>I agree with the sentiments in Friedokra's first post: ratings are nonsense. There are many fine schools and how a student takes advantage of the opportunities at those schools is a lot more important than the name of the school. Success in life, however you care to define it, has a lot more to do with an individual's motivation and talent than the name on their college diploma. </p>
<p>People need to be realistic about the process though. College admissions is not "a little bit of a crap shoot". It's a major crap shoot. There are hordes of highly qualified kids applying to the Ivy's and their peer schools. Particularly kids that are "just" (I hate to say that) excellent students--high SAT's and GPA's. You just have to accept that unless a kid is an URM, a recruited athlete or a legacy, admissions decisions will be kind of random.</p>
<p>I understand that these "hooks" create a lot of ill will on the part of those that don't enjoy them, but I think they are all justifiable. And I think legacy connections, particularly at the very top institutions, are worth less than some people think. 1200 SAT, 2.5 GPA kids aren't getting into Yale, no matter how many of their relatives went there. </p>
<p>I have 2 kids that have gone through the process (son, not admitted to Dartmouth, daughter was admitted, and with weaker academics--go figure!). What I have taken away from the process is that a kid should visit and apply to a lot of schools. You just can't predict where a kid's number will come up on the admissions roulette wheel. (You have to visit--tough to get in to a competitive school if you don't. So this is time consuming.) </p>
<p>Secondly, work very hard on the applications. They do matter. Essays along the lines of I want to go to Duke because I like sports and it would be fun to watch the basketball team just won't cut it. </p>
<p>Finally, congratulations if you are blessed with a child that has done well enough in high school to be legitimately considering a school like Dartmouth.</p>
<p>Thanks, NCram and Dan. I appreciate the nod. Perhaps the "crap shoot" is more major than I suggested. It does seem to be very bizarre at times. Not that schools should be chastised for setting their own standards and admitting those whom they choose to admit. Its their money and their school and there is no legal "right to be admitted" anywhere, not even a state school. Its a privilege.</p>
<p>However, while exceptions can and do occur, it is discouraging to see so many bizarre results: who gets in and who gets slammed. I have been watching this for years and its always very strange.</p>
<p>But we have raised our kids to be mature and to be proud and dignified, not cocky or arrogant or a poor sport. We are thankful where we are, so to speak, confident in our choice.</p>
<p>I read somewhere that the hardest thing about college admissions is that we have to accept the fact that someone else is making a major life decision for us, that despite hard work in school, many grueling hours in extra curriculars (in my D's case an award winning orchestra) someone else may either look better on paper, have a hook or connection, or simply just be lucky. Like I said, Dartmouth was a tad of a reach for her and she didnt even apply, though someone we know with similar scores but with a weaker transcript in high school did...and got in...but had "connections". </p>
<p>I wish you all well, and the best of luck to Dan. Always keep your right hand up.</p>
<p>Well, I am glad you have raised your kids to be mature and not cocky and arrogant or poor sports. But ..it seems to me that you were not raised that way. I smell a rat with your constant bashing of Dartmouth. Perhaps you were so frustrated with the low acceptance rate and crap shoot that you have not been a very good sport yourself.</p>
<p>I see that a whole thread has been started to ask you about that. I wonder why..</p>
<p>Ohmadre:</p>
<p>You have correctly identified the initial source and reason that I posted on Dartmouth's board, not having a kid apply there or go there.</p>
<p>"I think your beef in that regard is actually not with Dartmouth. I wonder if your focus on Dartmouth (other posts demonstrate your small regard for its academics) has to do with some personal experience with some "narcissitic brat", gloating, or judgemental type student who already attends, or will attend, D. I can see why you would want to admonish students who adopt that attitude. But its not an attitude you can extrapolate generally to students at D, nor to the students posting on this board. Incoming students who might have that attitude will probabably find it does not go over well."</p>
<p>I am sorry if I implied in my frustration that it applies generally to kids at D or this board, though I have noted (as it occurs on many boards of many elite colleges) a little bit of "we are better than xyz school", but that is also just immaturity showing in those kids.</p>
<p>The "gloater" that got my goat and brought me here though will be disappointed to see me coming away with a positive feel about D. I have always had a great deal of respect for Dartmouth, but I am not sure I am a huge supporter of the D plan. That is just personal preference, not a comment on the quality of education available there. There were many reasons my D didnt apply to D that are a measure of her own personal interests and preferences and not a comment on Dartmouth per se, some of them being geographical, some of them being social, some of them being particular academic interests. She had a broken heart over another school frankly that still stings if you mention it to her, but she also knows that what happens in admissions is not a judgment upon the school as a whole. In a perfect world, kids would pick one school and they would all get into that one school and things would work out. Of course, that is not reality and never will be. I am glad to hear that Dartmouth as a general rule does not countenance gloating and narcissism. In that sense, I am sure the individual we know will learn some valuable lessons there and hopefully come out a more mature and sensitive individual. But the same could be said for kids who got into Harvard, Notre Dame, Stanford or anywhere.....</p>
<p>My D is very happy where she ended up and its a great fit for her on so many levels...and that in the end is what we are striving for....so we are grateful it worked out for her that way.</p>
<p>Growing up, I did not come from money or privilege. It took the military to give me some direction and focus and motivation in my life. I worked three jobs while in college, plus the GI Bill. I wouldn't trade a minute of my college experience for anything else. I just root for the underdogs most of the time and in particular for kids who really and truly are good human beings, who have worked their tails off...to exhaustion sometimes, and even though they aren't "perfect kids" with 2400 SAT scores (1600 old score) they are a credit to the schools they attend and make their parents very, very proud. I am certain that the incoming class at Dartmouth is no exception in that regard.</p>
<p>Friedokra</p>
<p>I regret another post I just made crossed with this. Because it will sound like I am harping on something you just acknowledged. </p>
<p>Cocky, I think, boils down in major part to immaturity and I hope that whatever incoming D student you are talking about learns humility quickly. He or she may never. Anyone whose self measure is defined by where he or she went to school as opposed to where others did not, might never. </p>
<p>I too root for the underdogs, or at least, the non-priviledged. And I am happy that Dartmouth is populated with those kids - not necessarily only those whose "hook" is lack of priviledge, but even kids for a lower middle, middle class socioeconomic background.</p>
<p>I remember the days of highschool and the pure exhaustion and would want students to realize that if they don't get into to School X, it was not all for nothing. So completely NOT the case. But I would also wish they would not have to get hurt by the process - especially one so outside their own control. I imagine most kids capable of admission to a certain level of school do get hurt, at least a little, somewhere in the process.</p>
<p>I somewhat wish you would make your observations on a more general board because they need to be read by a wider audience - it would be nice to have a larger perspective as a high school Senior just getting into the process.</p>
<p>Friedokra</p>
<p>One more thing - congrats to your D and to you. Together you made it through all these years and in a way, college is the reward. Presumably she will be starting school very soon, and she will love it. Its just so much fun and exciting for parents to watch their children enjoy the experience, mature, take on more and more their own personality and pursue new and perhaps unexpected interests. I wasn't prepared for how much fun that would be - or how many new things I would learn about. I thought the separation would be harder to adjust to than it was - but its just been so great enjoying the the college experience through my child's eyes.</p>
<p>I think you missed my point earlier about why I was on this board. It was brought about, by my admission that a person whom I do not care to characterize by gender or other qualification (but a non-minority) was admitted to Dartmouth with significantly lower stats than those posted by Mr. Roger Dooley on the Dartmouth homepage of cc discussions (where 111 kids posted their results for this years class and 99% of them had SAT's and GPA's in the 770 per section and 3.9 gpa range) and then who had the unmitigated gaul to gloat over my D and some of her friends who didnt get into their top choice schools. So I sauntered over here to get a snapshot and low and behold I found some other Dartmouth kids on one thread yapping about the USNWR rankings and putting down Brown, Penn, Cornell etc....which I thought was rather ugly of them, so I politely called them on it. But otherwise the Dartmouth people, families who have responded to my comments have been polite, respectful and appreciative of my observations. That is all. But yes, many of my points can be posted on general threads. It just happened to occur here because of the circumstance. I said several times I have enormous respect for Dartmouth College and congratulated its admitted students. I mean that. But I also pointed out that there are things which occur in admissions that are rather strange and that Dartmouth is not a stranger to that fact either...pardon the pun. Point in fact the person who was admitted and gloated. I know for a fact that person's sat scores were below 1400 (1350ish is what I was told), and while this person finished technically in the top 10% of their class, it was a very small class (fewer than 100 students) and not many of them were in the super student category: many were rather average. BUT, the hook to admissions and knowing some significant alumnae played a huge role in this person being admitted. So it rubbed me wrong when they gloated, when instead they should be feeling rather lucky and humble about it. Rubbing in my D's face the fact she was disappointed last year when her first choice did not admit her (waitlisted and then soft rejection: not called off the waitlist) was rude, insensitive and really not worthy of a Dartmouth way of doing things. But as I said, hopefully this person will grow up and become a better person at Dartmouth. </p>
<p>And yes, I am very protective of my D and I am guilty of being sometimes overly active in her life.....though I assure you that is all going to change....because we believe very strongly that our job was to get her where she is and then release her into the big world. Its her life now. We will be there for advice and consent, but its really her decision(s) from here on out.</p>
<p>Dartmouth is being underrated by USNWR due to the magazine's completely flawed methodology, which I have written about at length on other threads. In reality, Dartmouth is easily among the top tier of undergrad programs in the country. For a better measure, see for example, <a href="http://www.collegejournal.com/special/top50feeder.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.collegejournal.com/special/top50feeder.pdf</a></p>