<p>
[quote]
it's soooooo easy to be me
[/quote]
Clearly. It seems to require no effort at all.
[quote]
"shackles of conformation"
[/quote]
straight from the heart, I'm sure. Sounds like someone needs a beer, an anti-depressant or a change of circumstance. Thought about Brown?</p>
<p>Rage on, Sorgrrl!</p>
<p>Beer? Yes, that's what I need! What was I thinking!</p>
<p>Disclaimer: I have attended neither Dartmouth nor Cornell, although I'm heading off to Dartmouth this fall, so I'm not going to attempt to compare the two.</p>
<p>It would be nice if people quit bashing SorGirl SIMPLY for RESPONDING to the original question of this post! I mean, obviously, there are some things that she says in the original post that others might disagree with and reply to - but god, it wouldn't kill you to do it civilly instead of snottily implying that Cornell is a bad school (VERY far from the truth!) , that she is completely socially inept, and that she has no basis for comparison (I'd say that, having attended both, she has a good idea of why she PERSONALLY preferred Cornell over Dartmouth).</p>
<p>That said, I wish somebody would respond to SorGirl's exaggerations that Dartmouth is a "racist, sexist, self segregated, non-intellectual party-only school composed of drunken idiots"... because I don't think that's true (and I've spent eight weeks on campus, during summer term no less), but I won't REALLY be qualified to talk about the atmosphere until I've spent a while in actually school there.</p>
<p>xine, you wrote a respectful and fair post. Please note, though, that I never witnessed sexism, racism, self-segregation, or anti-intellectualism, per se, when I was at Dartmouth; I took issue with the frat and alcohol culture and its feverish proponents who, I felt, stained the social fabric there. Now we could argue that these characteristics accompany it, or perhaps even propagate it, but it was the alcohol compulsion that I was assailing.</p>
<p>I honestly think someone like Sorgirl is not a good fit with Dartmouth. There are plenty of non-drinkers, but if you can't ignore the frat scene (which I think is a ton of fun - not like other schools where its more inclusive) and find your niche there are probably better places out there. Also, I think alot of the non-drinkers find each other over time, so I could see how someone who is only at the school a year could be intimidated by the frats.</p>
<p>slipper is right, but a more global problem Dartmouth must address is that it has been increasing its minority population without a strategy to meet the social needs of that population, a population which, while nearsighted or not, is likely to feel oppressed by the dominance of a frat scene whose membership is mostly white wealthier kids who love alcohol.</p>
<p>Xine,</p>
<p>I am a Dartmouth 09. I just finished my first year as a Dartmouth student and have now just returned from an internship at Stanford. I have lived in three countries and three states in the USA (Midwest, Mid-Atlantic and Northeast). I am currently the Associate Editor of the Dartmouth Review and write on occasion for the Daily Dartmouth as well as the Dartmouth Undergraduate Journal of Science. I am also a non-drinking URM who has never played organized sports in her life (though I like sports), majoring in a decidedly intellectual field, philosophy, with a pre-med kicker. However, the thing I would be happiest and proudest to note is that I have an incredible number of great and supporting friends here at Dartmouthfrom all backgrounds and philosophies. It is probably enough to say that I love Dartmouth and what it represents: a great education in academics and life.</p>
<p>Most of us here feel like we belong. No matter what our race/ethnicity religion/politics we not only get along but warmly support one another throughout the year, and it is well known that the alumni networking at Dartmouth is incrediblefor all. I have already greatly benefited from it as I, as an intern, am right now writing for The New Criterion, an influential and international arts & literature journal out of NYC. I doubt I would have landed it as a freshman without a couple connections provided by caring Dartmouth students and alums. You should consider that if you plan to attend Dartmouth. We tend to support one another.</p>
<p>In that spirit I took exception to the following comments by the girl from Cornell, about Slipper, who is himself ethnically Indian (hardly a beer-swilling white jock, I suppose): <a href="Slipper">quote</a> he/she is skilled at carefully selecting half-facts and hearsay Your long paragraph under the "academics" heading, for example, is utter rubbish.
[/quote]
Say it on the Cornell board, fine, say something so rude on the Dartmouth board only at your peril. Slippers advice has benefited not a few Dartmouth prospies, me included. I have never commented on Cornell on the Cornell board, in fact, I have never offered an opinion one way or another on Cornell on any board until now, when provoked to do so.
Then this said with ironic malice:
[quote]
And I, too, never believed Dartmouth was intellectually lightweight, like my friends at Yale told me. I also never believed it catered to white jocks, or that it was self-segregated, as my sister told me. I should have listened, though, when she told me about the alcohol-driven social scene.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The statement is bizarre on the face of it. Sybbie, for instancewho you have no doubt seen posting on the Dartmouth Forum--arranged for me to stay with her daughter when I first visited the campus. Her daughter is an African American Dartmouth 08. A very kind and caring person who warmly excepted me. Another person who frequently posts here, (a white southern girl from Alabama also stayed with us in Sybbies daughters dorm room, also as a prospie). So you had an Asian (me) an African American (Sybbies daughter) and a southern white girl from Alabama living together and becoming friends: So much for racism and white alcohol driven jock culture. To say something like this is an insult to all Dartmouth students, well beyond the pale and designed to provoke and demean. To say it on the Dartmouth forum is even more offensive and I took it as such. </p>
<p>Of my two best friends here, one is a white girl from Iowa and the other is an Indian from Manhattan whose father is in the Indian Delegation at the United Nations. I myself was raised in a public charity in Montreal, directed by my father who was also the editor of the Multicultural Journal. We had refugees living with us throughout my childhood. I have seen real racism and real violence and hatred acted out on people, even members of my own familyI have no tolerance for privileged whiners at Ivy League schools like the girl from Cornell. </p>
<p>Maybe I should work on that and feel their pain, but it is not at the top of my to-do list. Such comments demean the very real experiences of those who actually have had to struggle against brutal racism and segregationfrom obvious societal impositions, to the point of torture and death. I have had, as a child, people break down telling me about their rape and torture as political prisonersone was my cousin. Its shameful to speak of Dartmouth as a segregated or racist campus. In her defense, I doubt she has thought much about it and was just trying to boast about Cornell. We all brag about our schools. I do too.</p>
<p>In light of my own experiences and the friends Ive made here at Dartmouth, of all ethnicities, I found the following addressed universally to any minorities who fit in at Dartmouth demeaning and offensive:
[quote]
I guess you are just better at conforming to beer-drinking white jock culture than I was. Congrats on your achievement!...Once someone wriggles loose from the shackles of conformation, the world becomes so much more interesting and invigorating.
[/quote]
My guess is, that the girl from Cornell knows little about the shackles of conformation or shackles of any sort, otherwise she would not speak of it so cavalierly from her spiffy lifestyle at either Dartmouth or Cornell. It is a privilege to attend either one
hardly a hardship to whine and kvetch about. If you like one better htan the other...why not? But no need to bring the ugliness of racism and sectarianism, etc, into it to prove you prefer one to the other. It's just hateful. Even if only implied.</p>
<p>To not like, or even to despise white people or jocks is hardly freeing yourself from any shackles whatsoever; it is the opposite, an inability to free yourself from your own self-centered ego and prejudices. Boorish behavior exists and is not exclusive to any race, ethnicity, gender or philosophy. To say otherwise is at best prejudiced and at worst racist or misogynistic. To whine and whimper is simply unbecoming. It makes one seem foolish and mean. Like the following plaint:
[quote]
you have one reply from an admitted high school student (Illinois kid) who, incidentally, left a "troll-like" message
They put me in one of the crappiest dorms you can ever imagine, which was within a short walk of the frats (which, by the way, are also crappy looking)
My parents visited twice and, both times, commented on the drunken idiocy that they saw
not all Dartmouth students habitually act like anti-intellectual clowns
but it does have a high number of people who think acting like a drunken fool is what college is all about, and the rest, like me, feel marginalized.
[/quote]
Oy!</p>
<p>Then finally, the girl from Cornell--dug in too deep--gets to the truth of the matter, even while contradicting her previous jejune comments:
[quote]
Please note, though, that I never witnessed sexism, racism, self-segregation, or anti-intellectualism, per se, when I was at Dartmouth
[/quote]
per se?</p>
<p>Anyhow, though what you said about me, or my comments, seemed rather mean-spirited under the circumstances, I welcome you to Dartmouth, Xine. Its a great school. Youll love it here unless you are unable to get past your own prejudices (we all have them) as seems, sadly, the case with the girl from Cornellamongst many others I am sure. She seems to be happy in her new digs and I am happy for her. Cornell is certainly much bigger and it would be easier to self-segregate if one so desired. At Dartmouth it may be difficult to limit yourself to only those you deem to be like yourself; whether a beer swilling white jock, or a wary minority teetotaler. Here you will have to practice diversity, not just preach it. </p>
<p>Lets just leave it at that. Its a big world full of a lot of different and good peopletheyre everywhere, even at Dartmouth and Cornell especially so! But tolerance begins with you, whoever you are and wherever you find yourself. Think globally; act locallywherein the most local of all will always be yourself.</p>
<p>I will leave this thread for what it is, good luck,</p>
<p>Emily</p>
<p><<i am="" currently="" the="" associate="" editor="" of="" dartmouth="" review="">></i></p><i am="" currently="" the="" associate="" editor="" of="" dartmouth="" review="">
<p>I stopped reading here. No need to go further.</p>
</i>
<p>ok.....this isn't exactly what i intended on starting by asking about the two schools....so let me start again</p>
<p>I'm a senior in highschool and I've become really interested in Dartmouth and Cornell, I just can't decide at which one I would fit into best. Considering this I was hoping that you guys could compare and contrast the two for me...considering the academic scene, the state of the schools campus and the cities surrounding them (i enjoy the outdoors and such...but also like having the option of being able to go into the city and being able to do something), the social scene (would i be able to enjoy Dartmouth without being in a frat?), also I'm interested in majoring in Biochemistry or an allied field and was wondering which of the two schools was best...would i be able to do research at both??</p>
<p>sorry for the trouble i caused before but any new input is greatly appreciated =D</p>
<p>FountainSiren,</p>
<p>I'm an incoming freshman at Dartmouth in the fall. Before the term starts, I'm going to be working on campus so I'll actually be there a week from today and be spending a month getting to know Hanover.</p>
<p>This is an honest question and not meant to be pointed or argumentative in anyway. In your post, you describe yourself as the following:</p>
<p>"I myself was raised in a public charity in Montreal, directed by my father who was also the editor of the Multicultural Journal. We had refugees living with us throughout my childhood. I have seen real racism and real violence and hatred acted out on people, even members of my own family..."</p>
<p>Perhaps I'm either a little underdeveloped in my political thinking or just missing something, but how is it that someone from your unique background decided to write for the Dartmouth Review? I was under the impression that the Review, which I have heard is an excellent publication by any measure, is the staunchly conservative paper on campus. It seems odd to me that someone of your background would write for the conservative paper on campus and not, for instance, the DFP.</p>
<p>It's also that I'm impressed that you're already an Associate Editor for the review by the end of your first year on campus, so I'd just like to have an idea of how you got there.</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>Hi SorGirl,</p>
<p>I really wish that you had kept reading Fountain Siren's post and did not feel that the paper she writes for negates everything else she has to say. </p>
<p>You have made your choice that Hanover was not the place for you. Nothing wrong with that,as a matter of fact it is very good. You wrote about what your sister and your friends told you about Dartmouth (so you already came with some biases and may have just had a self fulfilling prophesy), but you found out for yourself that Hanover was not the place for you. </p>
<p>I attended Cornell (so no, I am not going to bash my school), my sister attended Columbia and my b-i-l attended Princeton and no matter how much we talked about our schools and our experiences there, my D felt that those schools were not the place for her. It does not mean that my school or anyone else's is better or worse than Dartmouth, it just means that different people want different things. </p>
<p>Even though your sister attended Dartmouth, she is not you, so what you may both have different views about your experience. It does not make anyone right or wrong.</p>
<p>Personally, I see a number of disconnects in some of your posts. You state:</p>
<p>
[quote]
I was admitted to both Dartmouth and Cornell out of high school, and chose Dartmouth against my first instinct because my sister and uncle went there.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>then you say</p>
<p>
[quote]
My parents visited twice and, both times, commented on the drunken idiocy that they saw, which, in the vicinity of my dorm, carried over to the afternoons after a frat party. They were also dismayed at the condition of my dorm given the money we were shelling out (my family is low to middle income).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I am a little confused. Did you or your parents visit during the time when your sister attended Dartmouth? At minimum, she lived on campus freshman year and when you were assigned your dorm, I am quite sure she was in the position to tell you them.</p>
<p>You stated on this board:
quote
[quote]
when I was at Dartmouth; I took issue with the frat and alcohol culture and its feverish proponents who, I felt, stained the social fabric there.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>then you turned around and stated on the Cornell board in reference to their party scene</p>
<p>quote:
[quote]
It depends somewhat on your desire to be part of the greek system or not. You might be very opposed, very open, or perhaps indifferent to this kind of social life. The greek system is HUGE, with many houses (some of them very beautiful) and each has its personality and distinction--the jock frats, the preppy frats, etc. If you become part of the system, it is easier to form friendships and have your social life structured. If not, your social life can be just as interesting but will be more variable and self regulated. Much of the party scene is centered within the frats
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It seems that you are upholding the same system you could not wait to get away from. But all of this is neither here nor there.</p>
<p>you stated:</p>
<p>
[quote]
And I, too, never believed Dartmouth was intellectually lightweight, like my friends at Yale told me. I also never believed it catered to white jocks, or that it was self-segregated, as my sister told me. I should have listened, though, when she told me about the alcohol-driven social scene.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>to which FS replied:</p>
<p>
[quote]
The statement is bizarre on the face of it. Sybbie, for instancewho you have no doubt seen posting on the Dartmouth Forum--arranged for me to stay with her daughter when I first visited the campus. Her daughter is an African American Dartmouth 08. A very kind and caring person who warmly excepted me. Another person who frequently posts here, (a white southern girl from Alabama also stayed with us in Sybbies daughters dorm room, also as a prospie). So you had an Asian (me) an African American (Sybbies daughter) and a southern white girl from Alabama living together and becoming friends: So much for racism and white alcohol driven jock culture. To say something like this is an insult to all Dartmouth students, well beyond the pale and designed to provoke and demean. To say it on the Dartmouth forum is even more offensive and I took it as such.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>My D's freshman roommate is from a small town in the NE and one of their suitemates freshman year was Native American who lived on the reservation. She and her roommate are still best friends and have dinner together once a week even though they live in different places. </p>
<p>Do people self segregate at Dartmouth? Yes, but people self segregate at Cornell also. Those that do, usually make a conscious choice to self segregate and are few and far between. She has a variety of friends of all races and cultures. Yes, she has black friends who have never been friends with another white, asian, hispanic person until they got to hanover and vice versa. </p>
<p>While she did decide to pledge last year and is currently a VP in her sorority (yes, she plays water pong), she has maintained her relationships with and kept a balance of friends who are greeks and non greeks. And while she gave an :eek: when she heard that FS writes for the Review, she also commented on how she missed her friend this year along with GS, and hoping to hang out more with them next year. I used to tell my D the following quote I came across and I hope that you keep it in mind when shaping your experience at Cornell or anyplace else.</p>
<p>*"Being around people who look, think, act and believe differently from you is what education is all about. If you haven't questioned your assumptions, you're not educated, you're just trained."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I truly believe that she gets to do this at Dartmouth.
So is my D's experience in Hanover different from yours? Absolutely. Does it mean that "she is better at conforming to beer-drinking white jock culture than you were?" She does not let this define her or her experience at Dartmouth. After all has been said and done college and your experience there is going to be what you make of it</p>
<p>Xine,</p>
<p>The upside is that no one gets to pledge freshman year. I believe that you can enjoy dartmouth with out being in a frat and I also know that you can be a non-drinker and still have a good time being part of the greek system. I hope that you have an amazing experience in Hanover.</p>
<p>Sybbie,</p>
<p>I wish I could have said it as well you have.</p>
<p>Half-baked (like the SN),</p>
<p>It is <em>because</em> of my experiences that I was drawn to the realism and fun that makes for the philosophical/social mix of the Review (also, the best writing on campus). I am largely liberal; in a traditional sense but not in the postmodern schmoosey sense. For instance, I am not at all happy with the current administration and I opposed the war in Iraq. I recently wrote a very damning article of the current administration and the neo-cons that drive it too often into recklessness. <a href="http://www.dartreview.com/archives/2006/05/18/honestly_who_are_these_people.php%5B/url%5D">http://www.dartreview.com/archives/2006/05/18/honestly_who_are_these_people.php</a> I was supported by the editors in writing it, even though there are neo-cons amongst them. On the other hand, the editors at the Daily Dartmouth fired their editor after hed written an editorial in support of Ronald Regans election in 1980. He went on to found the Review diversity and a free press?!</p>
<p>Still, to draw a distinction, I hope and support a good outcome for the war, unlike many others who in their self-obsession turn each defeat into a dour celebration of me-ness and their deeply felt pain in life. </p>
<p>Simply put, campus life is not like real life. To be a liberal against the norm, within the political doings of campus life, would make you a communist, anarchist, nihilist or in short, a malcontent in most civilizations, cities, suburbs and ghettos; perhaps not in name, but, to be honest, in fact. Still, unlike my friend at Cornell, I read the Dartmouth Freepress and write for the Daily Dartmouth. I read The National Review and The Nation. </p>
<p>I like diversity of people and opinion. Sybbie once mentioned to me that her daughter wondered why I write for the Review. I never responded but will here. To me it is simple, I like diversity, I love it and embrace it. But my diversity includes a diversity of thought, philosophy, religion, politics and people. The Review is a piece of that diversity on campus and without it such diversity would fall off precipitously--that is, there would be no conservative voice on campus. Who would want that? The fact of the Review should be celebrated by lovers of diversity, not condemned. Too often diversity means we should all be the same or, short of that, act like there are no differences--the differences should be celebrated and challenged, not expunged.</p>
<p>Not all are this way, by any meansmost of my closest friends consider themselves liberals, still, its never a problem for us as we dont wear our politics like a heart on the sleeve. Moreover, to me, there is something of a sickly feel to the voyeurism of the liberal campus do-gooder/social-innovator. It seems to be more about the subject concerned than the supposed object of concern. I staunchly oppose racism and have acted to oppose it (not just by chanting), sexism (I am after all a woman) and homophobiain short, in any way that hatred expresses itself in the public sphere. Nonetheless, I still think reason applies, no matter how often someone says, ya feel me</p>
<p>Thankfully, Dartmouth does not have a very politicized campus, though what activist politicization exists is largely liberal and on the fringes. </p>
<p>The Review, on the other hand, is something of a cross between The National Review/SCTV/Saturday Night Live, Edmund Burke, H. L. Mencken, The Ramones and Doctor Strangelove. Few get iton campusbut those that do, love it passionately.</p>
<p>We have fun with knowledge and our 4 years at college, believe me!</p>
<p>To understand the Review and its relationship to the administration and campus life, education and college hi jinx (plus the modern history of Dartmouth), I highly recommend this book: <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1932236937/ref=sr_11_1/002-4084745-6724816?ie=UTF8%5B/url%5D">http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1932236937/ref=sr_11_1/002-4084745-6724816?ie=UTF8</a>
Heres the Amazon.com review:
Editorial Reviews
Book Description
In 1980, disaffected editors from the student daily of Dartmouth College founded an off-campus conservative newspaper known as The Dartmouth Review. For twenty-five years, this renegade student publication, funded largely by discontented alumni, has made national headlines through its unique, provocative, and controversial brand of journalism. In doing so, The Dartmouth Review has shined a spotlight on the progressively liberal assumptions of Dartmouth College and of higher education, radically changing the terms of campus debate. </p>
<p>This anthology presents the history of The Dartmouth Review in its own words, featuring the student writings of the leading conservative journalists of the Reagan era to the present. It also presents the story of a newspaper under constant attack by a liberal ideology that seeks to silence dissent--and the triumph of that newspaper over those attacks. </p>
<p>Featuring additional commentary by William F. Buckley Jr. and Jeffrey Hart, this volume recounts an important chapter in the history of campus activism, Dartmouth College, and the American conservative movement.<br>
Another Review in The New Criterion: <a href="http://www.newcriterion.com/weblog/2005/11/dartmouth-review-pleads-innocent.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.newcriterion.com/weblog/2005/11/dartmouth-review-pleads-innocent.html</a>
Here you will see some of my writing: <a href="http://www.newcriterion.com/weblog/armavirumque.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.newcriterion.com/weblog/armavirumque.html</a></p>
<p>fountainsiren, your hostile posts just make dartmouth look bad
please stop talking.</p>
<p>What a very non-hostile thing to say, Sangel. </p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>omg you need to just stop attacking EVERYONE</p>
<p>
</a> That is not only hostile: it is an ugly lie! I've never come close to it, nor would I choose to.</p>
<p>And this is from a non-"oldboys-club" ethnic girl (though as I recall, Sybbie and Slipper felt the same way about your rather nasty post also, as I recall, you did not dispute our mutual disapprobation. Sangel, Im only left to wonder why).</p>
<p>If I have been hostile, it has been toward those who would needlessly diss Dartmouth often to do no more than make themselves feel better, or in some cases better about not going to Dartmouthyou fall into the former category, I assume.</p>
<p>Clearly you are aggrieved that I and others write for the Review. I, however, have no problem with your politics, which I assume to be left of liberalits the common view on campus; I have a number of very, very liberal friends on Campus and in NYC, and politics, amongst friends, is of no real consequenceonly amongst ideologues and blowhards. I do have a problem with your inability to tell the truth. It presents fundamental complications when trying to engage in a debate or discussion...n'importe quoi. </p>
<p>It is but a small school, but there are those of us who love it and defend it. Deal with it.</p>
<p>sybbie, To clarify, my sister transferred into Dartmouth so her experience was shorter and less typical than mine. Most transfer students don't get entrenched in campus culture as much as freshmen inititiates. They graduate before they know it. I don't think she lived on campus but I don't recall (she is nine years older). My parents were on the west coast and separated at the time and later my mom remarried. I don't want to go into needless details about the family's state of affairs, but my mom and stepdad later moved east so they had the chance to visit me more. I don't see any inconsistencies with my post about Cornell social life. I said nothing about one's tendencies to use alcohol and its correlation to having a social life. I said in my first post on this thread that Cornell had the largest frat system in the country. Certainly, drinking occurs in frats and at frat parties there, but the difference is, you can find frats where drinking is not a part of the climate at all; some frats even have some honors affiliations. Cornell has banned kegs and has taken other steps to crack down on underage drinking; I don't know if these steps are successful or not but, as you know, many of the frats and sororities are situated in areas quite a walk from academic buildings and residence halls. I've completely avoided the drinking scene all together at Cornell and found a great niche with kindred folk. I found this very difficult to do at Dartmouth.</p>
<p>you seriously have NO life, fountainsiren</p>
<p>I think the big difference here is that the non-drinkers and people in other scenes tend to find each other over time - its not overnight. I drink and was in a frat, but none of the people in my core social group were in frats. Sophomore summer you meet many people out of the party context, so I think that is where many people find a more alternative culture that fully exists. For these people life at Dartmouth is amazing, it just takes a little longer to find.</p>
<p>why the hostility here? My own experience is very very limited -- visiting Dartmouth rugby parties for a few hours, once or twice a season, for a few years; my own college team was so inexcusably rude and vile that Dartmouth actually banned us at one point. Obviously I do not speak from an exalted place. Still, next to my own team, I'd have to say that Dartmouth ruggers drank more, sang louder, and trashed the ladies more than any other team in our circuit.</p>