Dartmouth vs Cornell

Colleges and Universities A-Z Dartmouth College
41

<p>oh sybbie, you asked why I stopped reading Fountainsiren's post after I found out that she was editor of the Dartmouth Review. I could give you a treatise on that, but to be very succinct, let me <em>quote</em> Dinesh D'Souza, the former editor of the Dartmouth Review and, no doubt, someone idolized by Fountainsiren, whether she admits it or not:</p>

<p>"Slavery was a grave moral crime that inflicted incalculable harm to the slaves. But the slaves are dead, and the truth is that their descendants are better off as a result of slavery. Jesse Jackson is vastly better off because his ancestors were enslaved than he would have been if that had never happened. If not for slavery, Jackson and others like him would be living in Somalia or Ethiopia or Nigeria. The enormous improvement in their condition can be verified by simply asking them whether they would consider moving to one of those places."</p>

<p>This is a verbatim passage from page 59 of his book, "What's So Great About America." </p>

<p>If you are an African American woman like me, you know why I did not need to read her post any further.</p>

42

<p>From celloguy:</p>

<p><<obviously i="" do="" not="" speak="" from="" an="" exalted="" place.="" still,="" next="" to="" my="" own="" team,="" i'd="" have="" say="" that="" dartmouth="" ruggers="" drank="" more,="" sang="" louder,="" and="" trashed="" the="" ladies="" more="" than="" any="" other="" team="" in="" our="" circuit.="">></obviously></p>

<p>This is from an independent person who only visited Dartmouth. Thanks for making my case, celloguy.</p>

43

<p>Sigh...</p>

<p>I'm hoping that this will be my only post on this thread.</p>

<p>First, SorGirl, while you are certainly entitled to your opinion, I do have to question both your motives and a few of the things you say. Your persistence is admirable, even a bit disturbing. You appear "out to get" Dartmouth--something that will win you few points on the Dartmouth forum. Your last post gives credence to these claims--taking the word of someone who admitted he only visited Dartmouth for a few hours at a time, and only interacted with a very, very small subset of the Dartmouth population as "making [your] case." I'm not condemning you for it, but you have to understand how it looks to most people. </p>

<p>As for your denunciation of the Review, that's simply closed-minded. It's akin to me saying I'm not going to listen to anyone from Cornell because Cornell produced Ann Coulter. Or saying that I'm not going to listen to anyone from Yale because Yale produced John Kerry. Or the New York Times because they hired Jayson Blair. One person, though you may dislike him or her, does not merit an indictment of an entire organization. To do so is intellectually facile.</p>

<p>The Review has produced an exceeding bright array of conservative intellectuals, including James Panero and Stefan Beck of the New Criterion, Hugo Restall of the Far Eastern Economic Review and the Wall Street Journal, Greg Fossedal, at the time the youngest person to write editorials for the Wall Street Journal, Alston Ramsay of National Review, Steven Menashi of the New York Sun, and Joe Rago of the Wall Street Journal--to name but a few. None of them should be dismissed lightly.</p>

<p>Continuing down the list, we have accusations of racism and discrimination from Sangel and SorGirl. Those are very hefty charges, and ones that I believe are entirely without merit. The student body president this year is gay. The senior class president last year was black. There's a level of integration that I haven't seen on any other campus I've visited. Nor is Cornell free of such accusations, though apparently those claims have some support in fact (<a href="http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Feb06/stabbing.ssl.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Feb06/stabbing.ssl.html&lt;/a&gt;). Nobody has stabbed a minority while yelling "racial slurs" on Dartmouth's campus in my memory.</p>

<p>I'd also say that I'm very sorry for you, SorGirl, because you obviously didn't see (or didn't want to see) Dartmouth Undying. Instead, you choose to get caught up in your perceptions of campus drinking, which you seem to declare runs rampant among the student body. I've been a student for several years now, and I have been to all of two fraternity parties. This has hardly isolated me from Dartmouth social activities; I've never lacked things to do nor amazing people to do them with. About half of my friends are in fraternities; half are not.</p>

<p>Your statement that fraternities are mostly reserved for the rich white students is an utter falsehood. Dartmouth's minorities are only slightly underrepresented in fraternity membership, and Dartmouth's fraternities and sororities are more ethnically and economically diverse than most other schools I've visited and attended.</p>

<p>Cornell is a fine school for many people; and, Ithaca is indeed gorges. It certainly does have opportunities that Dartmouth does not; but Dartmouth also has many, many advantages that Cornell does not. </p>

<p>Now, I'm putting this thread behind me. I suggest that several other people do the same.</p>

44

<p>wisconsinguy,</p>

<p><<as for="" your="" denunciation="" of="" the="" review,="" that's="" simply="" closed-minded.="" it's="" akin="" to="" me="" saying="" i'm="" not="" going="" listen="" anyone="" from="" cornell="" because="" produced="" ann="" coulter.="" or="" that="" yale="" john="" kerry.="" new="" york="" times="" they="" hired="" jayson="" blair.="" one="" person,="" though="" you="" may="" dislike="" him="" her,="" does="" merit="" an="" indictment="" entire="" organization.="" do="" so="" is="" intellectually="" facile.="">></as></p>

<p>It is not akin to any of these things. This is a poor analogy. You are talking about a paper with a <em>transparently</em> distinct and hardened political ideology, not a university or newspaper that claims to have egalitarian ideals. It makes no difference who the Review's writers were or where they work now. As far as Ann Coulter, she was associated with the Cornell Review, which is as equally contemptible as its Dartmouth counterpart. I would have nothing to do with anyone who writes for that newspaper either.</p>

<p>I do, however, find merit in your suggestion: I am putting this thread behind me too. Bye, all.</p>

45

<p>Sorgirl,</p>

<p>You’re obviously a very hurt person. I sincerely hope that your experience at Dartmouth is not the cause of your current malaise. Moreover, I hope that none of us here has made things worse for you than they already were. Your attack has been relentless on the Dartmouth Forum. It must be exhausting. It may be that getting it all off your chest, as you have done here, will be therapeutic. I hope so.</p>

<p>Still, I’m sure you understand that I am loathe to let stand your obvious slanders, either of Dartmouth or its students, even if they emanate from a great deal of personal pain. </p>

<p>As for me, I have never met Mr. D’Sousa, whom you mention above. I understand he attended Dartmouth in the early 80’s and was one of the first writers at the Review. Even worse, I’ve never read any of his books and couldn’t have named a single title. It is curious to me that you have. Seriously, it can’t be good for you.</p>

<p>It would of course be difficult, if not dishonest of me to claim Mr. D’Sousa as one of my “idols” under these peculiar circumstances. Hopefully his heart is in the right place, and if not that it will be in the future: as with all of us. </p>

<p>But I have to say that such tactics as you have employed here are more common to hate groups than those who fight hatred. </p>

<p>Sadly, certain vicious types once did similar things to the SCLC and many of its leaders, including Dr King--amongst the many horrible things they did. They would find a communist, former communist or someone who was reputed to be a communist amongst his colleagues or followers--it wasn’t hard to do--and then try to tar the whole Civil Rights Movement, Rev King and many of the other leaders of the movement with the same sticky, sickly brush. </p>

<p>Some very august journals of the day took these reports at face value and printed them. The New York Times among them; you’ve probably read it. They would make great claims, such as the lie that the movement was a “tool of the Soviets.” I’m not sure if they went so far as to claim that Trotsky, Stalin or Mao were amongst Dr King’s “idols” and heroes, though--it would have been far too transparent, cheap and obviously mean-spirited to do so, even in the bad old days. Saying this, I do not mean to demean Marxist who, it seems, are taken very seriously within the academy. It would be cruel to ask, “are you now or have you ever been a communist?” You would be quite a zealot to ask, “Have you ever worked at a place that once employed a communist?” Wouldn't you think?</p>

<p>As you no doubt know, as someone who has attended college, what you have engaged in is classically referred to as a logical fallacy. Please don’t try it in one of your papers or you’ll be sure to drop a grade for lazy, if not very bad reasoning. </p>

<p>Sorgirl, time heals all things…if you let it. Perhaps you could put all this energy to something productive. I’m sure you could.</p>

<p>Peace on you and yours.</p>

46

<p>Sorgirl,</p>

<p>You’re obviously a very hurt person. I sincerely hope that your experience at Dartmouth is not the cause of your current malaise. Moreover, I hope that none of us here has made things worse for you than they already were. Your attack has been relentless on the Dartmouth Forum. It must be exhausting. It may be that getting it all off your chest, as you have done here, will be therapeutic. I hope so.</p>

<p>Still, I’m sure you understand that I am loathe to let stand your obvious slanders, either of Dartmouth or its students, even if they emanate from a great deal of personal pain. </p>

<p>As for me, I have never met Mr. D’Sousa, whom you mention above. I understand he attended Dartmouth in the early 80’s and was one of the first writers at the Review. Even worse, I’ve never read any of his books and couldn’t have named a single title. It is curious to me that you have. Seriously, it can’t be good for you.</p>

<p>It would of course be difficult, if not dishonest of me to claim Mr. D’Sousa as one of my “idols” under these peculiar circumstances. Hopefully his heart is in the right place, and if not that it will be in the future: as with all of us. </p>

<p>But I have to say that such tactics as you have employed here are more common to hate groups than those who fight hatred. </p>

<p>Sadly, certain vicious types once did similar things to the SCLC and many of its leaders, including Dr King--amongst the many horrible things they did. They would find a communist, former communist or someone who was reputed to be a communist amongst his colleagues or followers--it wasn’t hard to do--and then try to tar the whole Civil Rights Movement, Rev King and many of the other leaders of the movement with the same sticky, sickly brush. </p>

<p>Some very august journals of the day took these reports at face value and printed them. The New York Times among them; you’ve probably read it. They would make great claims, such as the lie that the movement was a “tool of the Soviets.” I’m not sure if they went so far as to claim that Trotsky, Stalin or Mao were amongst Dr King’s “idols” and heroes, though--it would have been far too transparent, cheap and obviously mean-spirited to do so, even in the bad old days. Saying this, I do not mean to demean Marxist who, it seems, are taken very seriously within the academy. It would be cruel to ask, “are you now or have you ever been a communist?” You would be quite a zealot to ask, “Have you ever worked at a place that once employed a communist?” Wouldn't you think?</p>

<p>As you no doubt know, as someone who has attended college, what you have engaged in is classically referred to as a logical fallacy. Please don’t try it in one of your papers or you’ll be sure to drop a grade for lazy, if not very bad reasoning.</p>

<p>Sorgirl, time heals all things…if you let it. Perhaps you could put all this energy to something productive. I’m sure you could.</p>

<p>Peace on you and yours.</p>

47

<p>fountainsiren, You are a smart and well-read person, which is why you're disingenuous when you claim so little knowledge of Mr. D'Souza. No sensible person would believe you. His name and the Dartmouth Review accompany each other in educated people's minds like William F. Buckley and the National Review. They are almost synonymous. D'Souza Dartmouth Review (these three words) will earn 15,400 hits on google. Perhaps if he spent as much time spewing contempt for Asian Americans as he does black Americans you would have taken notice before you walked into the Review office for the first time.</p>

48

<p><<still, i’m="" sure="" you="" understand="" that="" i="" am="" loathe="" to="" let="" stand="" your="" obvious="" slanders,="" either="" of="" dartmouth="" or="" its="" students,="" even="" if="" they="" emanate="" from="" a="" great="" deal="" personal="" pain.="">></still,></p>

<p>fountainsiren, do me a favor. Stop the sarcastic, patronizing nonsense about my having deficient character, that is, my being hurt and needing healing. Everyone sees through this last-ditch attempt to sidestep truth and assail character. I never attempted to psychologize you, but I could have. Just as easily, I could have suggested that you are a small and unattractive person who compensates for your physical limitations with your poison tongue. How would you have liked that? I respect Slipper far more than you because s/he never resorted to name calling and mischaracterizations like you have. Slipper's reply was sensible and respectful. Speaking of which, who knighted you the champion of all things Dartmouth? This maneuver strikes me as terribly insecure. When I was at Dartmouth, you are the last person I would have wanted to defend me. Give your classmates some credit. Dartmouth students can take care of themselves. Do you think they are not capable? BTW, based on this thread, it seems to me that Dartmouth students don't want you to defend them. Few if any people here have come to your aid, and some accused you of making Dartmouth look bad, including a freshman who hasn't even arrived on campus yet! What an ambassador you make! Geez! It seems as though you have more enemies than friends among your involuntary constituents. </p>

<p>This is my last response. I will never return to this thread to read or post another message. Go ahead and assassinate my character all you want. I know you <em>will</em>, because you're the type of person who can't stand not getting the last word in. Just know that I will not be part of your audience. Bye bye!</p>

49

<p>Sorgirl,</p>

<p>I actually wish you all the best at Cornell. It sounds like Cornell suits you and your needs. We all have them. Cornell suits many people for many reasons. So does Dartmouth. </p>

<p>BTW, I don’t read political books, not D’Sousa, not Buckley…and I’m 5’8”.</p>

50

<p>5'8? Ah well, seems everyone nowadays, no matter what ethnicity, is taller than I am.</p>

51

<p>Thanks, people who responded to my questions :)</p>

<p>Clarification: I have no problem with drinking, frats, partying, etc., and I'm looking forward to what seems like a really close-knit and FUN college community - I just wanted to make sure that SorGirl didn't truly mean/it isn't true that the prevalence of frats and partying led to the "dumbing down" of campus, which I guess (judging from people's posts, and my own impressions of Dartmouth) isn't something to worry about.</p>

<p>FountainSiren, I'm sorry if I offended you - it's totally understandable that you wanted to defend Dartmouth :], but I was just getting irritated by the initial rudeness coming from both sides.</p>

52

<p>Consider you're all still in the middle of bloody nowhere... :-)</p>

53

<p>As opposed to an impersonal montrosity with little community feel or green spaces. </p>

<p>I am constantly suprised with the number of Penn/Cornell or Columbia/Dartmouth app overlaps I read about. People don't think enough about what would best suited to them.</p>

54

<p>I think you're mistaken. I applied and got into both Columbia and Dartmouth. I did it so I could keep my options open so that I could choose which kind of environment I wanted to study in and not be locked into it before I even got my acceptance letters back. I by no means like a rural, outdoorsy atmosphere; that being said, I know fully well that after Dartmouth, I'm going to work in finance in a city like London, Paris, New York, Boston, or San Francisco. I purposely picked Dartmouth, with its "middle-of-nowhere" appeal because I figure that at best I might fall in love with the change of scenery and, at worst, I'll find that a little bit of masochism builds a lot of character, and that a diversity of experiences is vital to intellectual wholeness.</p>

55

<p>Half-baked,</p>

<p>You have hit on one of the best over-all rationales for 4 years of bliss. It was certainly something I factored in. I’m doing an internship in Manhattan right now, between terms, and I will likely spend a good part of my life here in the city after graduation. This is a once in a lifetime shot. </p>

<p>Of course, per this thread, this would likely apply to both Dartmouth and Cornell with the understanding that one is more intimate and traditional than the other, imo.</p>

56

<p>
[quote]
it does have a high number of people who think acting like a drunken fool is what college is all about, and the rest, like me, feel marginalized.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>SorGirl, I'm sorry you felt marginalized, but please don't speak for "the rest" -- I, like you and FountainSiren, am a non-athlete URM girl who doesn't party or go to frats really at all. I have NEVER felt marginalized - I have a great group of friends, none of who party much, and I've had a great experience my first year. Perhaps your experience was not as good because you lived in the Choates (whereas I lived in the River, farther from the frats), or not in sub-free housing (which for me a was a great choice), or because you were just unlucky. It certainly is POSSIBLE for someone like us to have a wonderful time at Dartmouth, and I know of many who do.</p>

<p>Anyway, I'm glad you found a college atmosphere that suits you better, but please share your opinions as your opinions -- don't speak about Dartmouth on behalf the entire non-greek population.</p>

57

<p>
[quote]
I just wanted to make sure that SorGirl didn't truly mean/it isn't true that the prevalence of frats and partying led to the "dumbing down" of campus, which I guess (judging from people's posts, and my own impressions of Dartmouth) isn't something to worry about.

[/quote]
this is one I would strongly suggest campus visits to check out ... in MY opinion schools where frats and drinking dominate the social scene in general have a different feel than schools where they don't. I said different ... not good or bad ... and, for ME, the frat centric social scenes didn't work as well. The other dymamic that the Dartmouth / Cornell comparison raises is smaller versus larger school ... again different ... not inherently good or bad but different ... to ME it seems smaller schools are more likely to have a dominate feel to them which can be terrific if that you fit into that culture (for example, Williams and Swarthmore are absolutely terrific LACs and, in my opinion, seem to provide very different undergrade cultural experiences) ... while bigger schools have more room for multiple large sub-cultures (or said another way less cohesion across everyone) ... again not good or bad ... just different. And for me when I visited schools my preference along these dimensions became crystal clear and I modified my ordering of schools and my new first choice felt like home from the start of my campus visit.</p>

58

<p>Hey I jsut did a crazy college visits tour and I visited both Dartmouth and Cornell. I personally am for Dartmouth at this point, but they both have so much to offer. Went I went to Cornell I was so surprised by how friendly everyone was. I was reading a map trying to orient myself/find something or other and I'm there for a ll of 2 seconds before an engineering student is telling me how to get anywhere and everywhere on campus, and giving me the lowdown on what hotels, what places to eat etc. This coulddddd be because of my outrageously hot bod, but still, it was a very welcoming place. I stayed at the Stratler which is a hotel on campus, and all the people in the Hotel school are working there, and I struck up a conversation with so many of them, and they all just know where we've been in the decisions process and are so nice and helpful. One of the girls even gave me a room with a king sized bed (sweeeet) but charged me for a less expensive room. The academics there seem amazing. (But that's kind of a given lol). On the other side when I went to Dartmouth I just fell in love. I think the D plan is the sexiest thing ever and their whole study abroad program just seems amazing. I also am a fan of greek life (looking into a sorority) so that's a plus for me, i love the wilderness location/community that I think would be there as a result of that isolation lol, the guys at dartmouth are very goodlooking, they're building two new astronomy observatories, I could go onnnn. Cornell and Dartmotuh are similar in that they do seem to focus on undergraduates a lot (D more than C, but that's to be expected given their types) and everyone I saw at both schools just seemed so happy. Oh and the food at cornell is amazing. so is the ice-cream. I would be happy going to either one, it's just I think I personally fit Dartmouth better (let's hope I get in!). You might be the total opposite. Good luck choosing!</p>

59

<p>If you want something that might help you to make a better decision, it would be the WSJ elite graduate school feeder rankings. Dartmouth was ranked as the 7th best feeder college for elite professional school's, while Cornell was ranked 25th. Here is the entire ranking:</p>

<p><a href="http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:EMgwkU7FTkkJ:online.wsj.com/documents/wsj_college_092503.pdf+WSJ+feeder+colleges&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:EMgwkU7FTkkJ:online.wsj.com/documents/wsj_college_092503.pdf+WSJ+feeder+colleges&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Elite graduate school's appreciate dartmouth graduates much more.</p>

60

<p><<elite graduate="" school's="" appreciate="" dartmouth="" graduates="" much="" more.="">></elite></p>

<p>Time for a reality check. This is a faulty assumption based on a very dubious ranking. Cornell sends more graduates to these so-called "elite" schools than Dartmouth in real numbers. This list ranks by percentage, not real numbers; Dartmouth is higher on the list only when compared to Cornell in total class size. It fails to account for the nature of the undergrad program. Many students at Cornell are already in professional programs and have no reason to apply to these schools--for example, architecture, hotel, and a number of "niche" undergrad programs. Dartmouth is a liberal arts college and most graduates apply to graduate schools of the type mentioned here. The list does not account for the <em>percentage</em> who apply to these schools from each college, which is probably about the same.</p>