Daughter affected by "prestige" bug... any advice?

Parents Forum
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<p>parentOfJunior, this is a slightly dated but worthwhile thread:</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/881237-ivy-caliber-safeties-matches-condensed-advice.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/881237-ivy-caliber-safeties-matches-condensed-advice.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The OP was a really bright high school student who very methodically went through the process of finding colleges that would be great matches and safeties for a high-achieving student…which she was (and still is, I’d assume :slight_smile: ). She ended up at Swarthmore, which fortunately offered enough FA to make the school affordable for her family.</p>

<p>What’s great about this thread is that quite a few of the schools mentioned were schools that she would’ve been happy attending. Take a look at some of her visit reports to see if reading them might appeal to your D. </p>

<p>Any specific info on merit aid would need to be verified, of course.</p>

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<p>A little trophy hunting is not a bad thing – I agree this can be one strategy. So much of this crazy college stuff hinges on the kids being able to save face with the peer group. But – kiddo has to be on board with the affordability thing if you let them apply to the non-affordable schools.</p>

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<p>Please, please be clear on what you will pay. My friend’s son had the “prestige” affliction too, and after being rejected by ALL of his top choices, “resigned” himself to a super-expensive private because of the brand awareness. He is not excited about going there and expects to transfer after a year. And meanwhile his family is throwing $50K-plus down the drain because they didn’t set reasonable expectations up front.</p>

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<p>I’m not a big fan of kids applying to schools they have no intention of attending, just for the bragging rights if they’re admitted. That’s just too cynical a game for my tastes. It’s not fair to the school. It’s not fair to the applicant, really, who may think, “Well, at least they’ll let me apply, then if I’m admitted I think I can wear them down and get them to agree to let me attend.” It just sets them up for heartbreak if it doesn’t happen, and it may sour them on schools that are more realistic choices. And it’s not fair to other applicants who may get rejected in favor of an applicant who has no intention of attending. Sure, the school counts on a certain fraction of its admitted students turning it down, and it can always fill that spot off the waitlist; but it really could affect some other applicant who really does want to attend NYU and has the financial capacity to do so, but whose plans change once they’re waitlisted at NYU in favor of an applicant who’s only playing an ego game.</p>

<p>I’d echo what others said, though, about working through the net price calculators and carefully examining a school’s FA policies before writing it off as unaffordable.</p>

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<p>Even though Naviance shows matches for the OP’s D stats, any schools that have below a 30% acceptance rate cannot be considered “matches”, regardless of the financial aspects…</p>

<p>IMO, student needs more true matches (schools that either admit more than 40% of applicants without an Ed admit and/or those where her family can afford to send her)…</p>

<p>One true match and one true safety, again in my opinion, is not a complete college list…</p>

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<p>parentofJunior – It sounds like you’ve done what you can with presenting financial information to her. I’d do this if I were you:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Tell her (again) what you can afford: $X per year, no more, period. She can “make it up” with scholarships, but if she loses those awards later for some reason, she will have to transfer out of her more expensive school.</p></li>
<li><p>Tell her that you will pay for her to apply to three colleges that cost $X per year or lower (her financial safeties), including one academic safety. (You can say four financial safeties, including two academic safeties, if you think that’s better.) After that, you will provide $Y (or she can use her own money) for application fees to any other colleges that she wants, with the above understanding about finances. If she wants to use the $Y or her own money to apply to Ivies, with the knowledge that she may be rejected or may even have to turn them down, then that is her choice.</p></li>
<li><p>Find out about merit scholarships and honors programs at her three or four financial safeties. Even better, research this information BEFORE deciding on these colleges. There are some schools that make a special effort to cater to their top scholarship and/or honors students. They provide everything from small seminars with star professors and scholarships to study abroad to priority registration and free copying.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Best of luck! You sound very conscientious.</p>

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<p>I agree with bclintonk that applying to a school that you have no intention of going to is not fair to other applicants. The school, though, might not care so much, given that they get the application fee. Also, the more applicants they have, the more “selective” they can say that they are.</p>

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<p>We will have 3 in college at one time, so that when DS was applying we gave him a max amount we would be able to cover, which was about what the state flagship costs. He was not restricted as to where he could go, but he would have to pay back any amount over that amount, or get scholarships. He was accepted at a range of schools from “prestigious” privates to a number of state schools. Some offered merit and some didn’t. When he finally had to decide, he had to ask himself if he wanted to take on significant debt or if he wanted to come out debt free. After looking at this together with the minimal difference, if any, in quality of education, he decided that it was best to be debt free. He told us it was his first lesson in business ( he is a bus major). He is extremely happy with his choice and can’t wait for college to start.</p>

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<p>I’d suggest having your daughter investigate schools that give merit … it’s true merit is hard to come by in the top 10 type schools. However there are a lot of really excellent schools that give merit aid (I’m think top 50 research Us and top 50 LACs) … and if someone is will willing to go to the top 100 research Us and top 100 LACs there are tons of options. In addition, while a lot can be said for going to a top school … a lot also can be said for being a big fish in a relatively small pond. IMO the big fish smaller pond may be a better choice for many students for many reasons.</p>

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<p>I will add that the schools my kids applied to were all schools they intended to go to if we could afford it. It was simply that we did not know if they would be admitted or exactly what the bottom line would be until admission. They never applied to a school that we knew ahead of time was out of reach, because if they did get in, another student would be broken-hearted and then so would they when we had to say no. It is also a waste of time for both and money. So I also do not think it is right to apply to a school that you know ahead of time that you absolutely will not or can not attend. Also, once my kids knew that they would not attend a particular school, they notified the school as soon as possible, as we knew someone else was waiting for that spot.</p>

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<p>Hey there! Rising senior in high school here. Here’s a little anecdote to start off my response: My parents lost all of their money in 2008. The money they had left was given to my mother in 2010 in order to make up for my dad getting custody of my brother and I. The $50,000 or so my father had left was spent on attorney fees and giving her a portion of money for owning our home. This left my father with a grand total of about $1,000 in the bank, and barely anything in retirement. He currently works three jobs, three in the school year and two in the summer. Our income level is <$30,000, including child support. We had a good life, and after my parent’s divorce I became aware of the money situation.</p>

<p>I think you should tell your daughter that if she does get accepted to those crazy expensive schools, she will have to take out loans to help pay for the rest of the cost if the scholarships the school offers and what you are offering her do not meet the full cost of living and tuition.</p>

<p>I understand that every person has different interests, but you need to make her aware that the economy is not stable enough for her to take a lot out in loans. I know you may not want her to take out thousands of dollars in loans, but sometimes there’s no other way. By her looking at the state of the economy and the possibility of job prospects after graduation, she should be able to determine that she either needs to work her butt off and apply to tons of scholarships, or she needs to find a job and start saving for college.</p>

<p>What motivated me to look at colleges was that my dad and I set up this agreement that if I made a list of 200 scholarships and applied to all of them, he will pay for the schools that I’m applying to that will not give me fee waivers, and he will pay the deposit fee of the school I end up at. Since for me this is worth hundreds of dollars, I’m more than willing to take it. Maybe you could make a deal with her like that.</p>

<p>If she’s applying to schools just to say that she got in, but none that she necessarily totally likes and could see herself at, then I agree with the other parents on this thread: make her pay for those application fees herself. It’s ridiculous for someone to do something like that. I mean, hey, my dad wants me to apply to Yale to see if I get in. Do I think I would ever get into Yale? Absolutely not. Would I ever want to go to Yale? Nope, not at all. I don’t feel like helping out their admissions percentage either, to be perfectly honest. I’d rather apply to colleges where not only do I think I have a chance at, but where I can see myself going.</p>

<p>I think your daughter has more research ahead of her. You should make her fill out an excel sheet/chart with a ton of information about the school and application process for each on it. If she’s not totally into the school, she will not fill it out because the task is too arduous.</p>

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<p>Have you tried the Net Price Calculators at those pricey schools? If the amounts aren’t likely or may not be affordable, then let her apply to a few of these schools, “just to see,” but insist that she ALSO apply to some schools that you know will be affordable because of lower cost and/or assured merit scholarships.</p>

<p>Some parents use the “Parent Picks” rule, which requires their child to apply to 2-3 schools that the parents pick out. Those can be financial safeties or other affordable schools that you think could work.</p>

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<p>*ith the list of schools which includes exactly 1 financial safety (state flagship), and 1 match. The rest are expensive private schools where (in my view) she is not likely to get enough aid to make attendance possible…</p>

<p>… Do we start the whole affordability talk all over again? Or do we let her apply to all those unaffordable privates and just add more affordable schools to the list?*</p>

<p>Is the COA (tuition, room, board, books, etc) of your state flagship equivalent to the amount that you can afford to pay?</p>

<p>YES…do have that talk with your D again…with dad there as well. Some kids get it into their heads that THEY can take out big loans to pay for schools of their choice…which they can’t. They would need co-signers. So, also make sure your D understands what you would or wouldn’t do in regards to borrowing/co-signing.</p>

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<p>And, please don’t forget that a lot can happen between now and when the applications are actually due. Last summer my niece had a list a mile long that included many outrageous reachy places that give bad aid. My sister gave her a dollar limit for total application costs, and by application time the list was down to five. By FAFSA time she’d eliminated one more. Before acceptance letters were due, one that was finicky about the CSS Profile (the family has very messy small-business finances) was eliminated as well. This meant that when the “Yes!” letters arrived from the remaining three, she could feel good about choosing the cheapest one. She never did have to apply to her in-state public “true safety”, but she would have had time to do so if necessary.</p>

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<p>Girlfriend is infected by prestige bug also… But she has a semester where she failed almost every class. She claims it’ll help her get into a better law school (we both want to go to law school), and no matter what I do or say, she can’t grasp that law schools look at GPA + LSAT, and that the prestige of the undergraduate institution an applicant attended means next to nothing to law schools. So I sort of understand your predicament… Just be straight with your daughter and let her know what you’ll pay, and insist she apply to at least one safety.</p>

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<p>Make sure the safety is truly a safety. I am a big fan of two safeties. We had “safety” schools that rejected my S, and all the reach schools accepted or waitlisted him. It’s been explained to me that it wasn’t a true safety. Maybe so. You want to make sure that your D really has someplace to go. That isn’t always the case.</p>

<p>Bragging rights is a dangerous game because the kids will try and talk her into going.</p>

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<p>Agree that you need to be firm on the budget and make sure she has an application or two somewhere that you feel you can afford and she understands might be where she ends up. After that there might be tears in the spring when the finaid letters come in but you will have been resolute and set the boundary which is what parenting is about. The bigger problem is if you don’t feel you can be resolute.</p>

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<p>There is really no such thing s a match unless you’re guaranteed acceptance for some reason. Kids look at stats or descriptions and assume. In fact, you could be the umpteenth applicant from your region or kid wanting that major, looking like everyone else who does. You could blow your essays or not have the sort of experiences and activities that impess those adcoms. Your LoRs may not shine they way you think they will. You can even lose on a coin toss, of sorts, in the last round. All that before the FA issues. </p>

<p>My D1 applied to, I think, 6 “matches” - based on her specific strengths the strengths of her program offered at those and where we felt they would like her “rest of the story,” (EC’s, her sort of leadership, etc.) Each had been “tested” by DH and me for the strength of the depts and opportunities- and likelihood of offering the right FA. We told her, if the right aid doesn’t come through, no matter what she thought of the school, we couldn’t afford it. </p>

<p>Don’t forget, there’s a lot of growng between now and next semester, then on to 12/31. D1 didn’t even discover her #1 til late October. Keep putting financial reality in front of your daughter.</p>

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<p>The “true safety” meets these four criteria:</p>

<p>1) The student is flat-out guaranteed admission. You know this because the institution is open admission (like a community college) or it publishes the requirements for guaranteed admission right on its website (many public Us do this for in-state candidates. If your kid’s HS has years of records that clearly indicate that no student with your kid’s profile who has applied there has ever been rejected, then that college/university is a pretty solid safety, but you do need to bear in mind that admission policies can change from one year to the next and your kid’s year might be that year.</p>

<p>2) Your family can fully pay for this college/university without any aid other than federally determined aid (FAFSA), and/or guaranteed state aid (Hope, Bright Futures, TAP, Blue & Gold, etc.), and/or guaranteed merit-based aid from the college/university itself that you know your kid qualifies for (see criteria #1).</p>

<p>3) Your kid’s major is offered, or in the case of a community college the first two years of coursework that can apply toward that major is offered.</p>

<p>4) Your kid will be happy to attend if all else goes wrong in the admission process.</p>

<p>Many of us would recommend identifying the “true safety” early on and applying early on so that your kid can get in line for any extra goodies (priority housing, priority registration, un-announced merit-based money) that are on offer. Having at least one “Yes!” early on in what can be a stressful year is a very comforting thing.</p>

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<p>Many of us would recommend identifying the “true safety” early on and applying early on so that your kid can get in line for any extra goodies (priority housing, priority registration, un-announced merit-based money) that are on offer. Having at least one “Yes!” early on in what can be a stressful year is a very comforting thing.</p>

<p>This is very true. Some schools that offer ASSURED big merit have rolling admissions, so you can have acceptance and merit offer in hand by early fall…that makes the rest of the year much less stressful as you wait for other schools’ acceptances and offers.</p>