<p>A lot of folks on CC have praised LACs for their close attention to students, the research opportunities available to undergraduates, and their commitment to students' development of skills.</p>
<p>But I'm wondering about a potential problem with them, one my daughter is concerned about. </p>
<p>Now that my daughter has gotten into some excellent schools and we have some doable financial aid packages, she's in the process of thinking about where she wants to go. When putting together her applications, she picked schools that would be intellectually challenging (but, since she's undecided, without much attention to where there were especially strong programs in a particular discipline), without a major Greek social scene, mostly in 4 season locales, and in places that were urban or college towns. One thing she didn't select for was LAC vs. research university.</p>
<p>So now that she has her choices, she is feeling that the LACs might be too insular. They tend to have personalities of their own. And even though they select for diversity, that diversity might be limited to people from different places and people who look different from each other, but not so much diversity in people's philosophies and approaches to life. She thinks that LACs are more controlling of students (such as in requirements to live on campus for years) and she wants more independence. As a result, she is leaning toward her top research university, despite the disadvantages it poses -- more bureaucracy, larger classes, less contact with professors in lower-level classes, fewer opportunities for research, etc. She also likes the greater choice of programs and classes in the research university she most likes. Her top choice among LACs is in a city, as is her top choice among research universities.</p>
<p>In helping her to make her decision, we (the parents) are not sure if her impression of LACs is correct. What do you think? Is there a tendency to be insular that one would not find in a research university? And, even if this were true, is that outweighed by the benefits of a LAC?</p>
<p>Has she visited her top choice LAC and her top choice U? I would think the questions as posed are too broad to be very beneficial when she has already narrowed the choice enough to have "doable" top choices in both categories. But what a great problem to have , huh?</p>
<p>I understand your daughter's concerns, but I don't think that kind of "insularity" is a handicap. College (no matter which she chooses) isn't the real world, nor should it be. I think that's a good thing; it's a time to explore, to play around with ideas and philosophies and interests. It's a time unto itself, and then students emerge into the real world. </p>
<p>Even students at large schools (with more red tape and fewer residence hall spaces to live in) are somewhat insulated. And that's all perfectly fine, in my book.</p>
<p>Some LACs may not have the diversity she craves, but in my experience LACs are pretty good at putting people in contact with what diversity there is. They may enroll fewer international students (for example), but the chance that you'll be living right down the hall from one, and talking to one on a daily basis, is higher. And even students who come from similar-seeming backgrounds have some important differences, many of which emerge more in college than they do in high school.</p>
<p>I think if an LAC otherwise feels like a good fit, then she shouldn't worry about the insularity.</p>
<p>I'm a little worried that if she is already voicing those concerns, then maybe, yes, an LAC will feel a little too "small," especially after 2 or 3 years. I think a lot of kids naturally outgrow their LACs towards the end - but, hey, that's what graduate school is for! ;)</p>
<p>On the other hand, and I don't know what schools she's thinking about, but my son seems to mix very readily with the international students at his LAC - and that has been really fun in his opinion. I found at the bigger university that I attended there were more opportunities for kids to NOT mix in some ways. They had a "critical mass" of Russian kids, Korean kids, African American kids, or whatever, and it actually resulted in less mixing!</p>
<p>Check into those research opportunities at the bigger places. There may be more than you think. Dh says there's very little meaningful research in the sciences at LACs, because they really need to have post-docs and grad students with the experience to do good research. (Dh even finds training grad students very time consuming - it's ages before they can really be very helpful.) He thinks undergrad research is overrated. (However he may be talking through his hat as he did do research at NIH every summer he was in college.)</p>
<p>Most LACs are smaller than our high school. I have to admit that seems worryingly small to me.</p>
<p>It appears that mathmom's family is not enamored with LAC's. ;) Other families are. ;) This topic has been discussed ad inifintum on these boards. I won't bore you with it now (other than countering the issues raised) because like I said, you should be to comparing one specific school to another specific school. Generalities won't help you now. </p>
<p>"Dh says there's very little meaningful research in the sciences at LACs, because they really need to have post-docs and grad students with the experience to do good research." Dh is ....uhhh..... badly and myopically mistaken. Excellent research opps abound at LAC's. (P.M. me for details of some NSF funded UG research which has landed my first year D at a symposium this weekend where she is part , a very small part, of a presentation). To suggest otherwise shows a lack of exposure to excellent LAC's. </p>
<p>(BTW, I would never suggest as some do that all research U's are horrible for UG research. Some are actually as good as the better LAC's. Research the individual schools. )</p>
<p>"He thinks undergrad research is overrated." UG research is critical for admission to many doctoral programs and is quite helpful for those pursuing a medical school degree. The lack of meaningful research experience is the kiss of death at some programs.</p>
<p>"Most LACs are smaller than our high school. I have to admit that seems worryingly small to me." That bridge should have been crossed by the OP's kid long ago.</p>
<p>Don't let my famiy's bias in favor of LAC's or mathmom's family's preference of U's sway you. Bring it down to your kid, her schools. Help her see the day to day life at the schools she has selected, how they differ. I'm assuming they wouldn't be the top choices if they didn't get her where she wants to go.</p>
<p>My D is finding wonderful research opportunities in the biological sciences at her small LAC. Her research led to a presentation at a national conference in Atlanta last fall, a presentation in Washington D.C. coming up shortly, and possible another national conference next year. With no graduate students around, the undergrads get all the opportunities. She also co-authored a paper with her professor about the reserach.</p>
<p>momfromme, this is a legitimate concern, especially if your D is looking at some of the more islolated LACs in the northeast or Maine (guessing from your nic.) I have a friend who teaches at Colby who often notices that kids simply get bored in these schools, especially in the winter. The result is a great deal of partying/drinking/'fraternizing" -- because there is not a whole lot more to do! His own 2 daughters could have gone to Colby for free. Instead they're at the humongous and urban Berkeley. As my friend says: Colby is the kind of school kids grow out of. Berkeley (and the like) are the kind of school kids grow INTO.</p>
<p>My #1 son is at a tiny rural school and is perfectly happy as a Junior. He has loved the school from minute 1. #2 son is at a medium sized urban U and was not happy as a freshman, but now is quite happy. He had talked to many people before he eliminated the wonderful LAC's (in not so isolated locations) to which he was accepted. He wanted a school that would meet his needs as a senior and even at his lowest moments last year he knew he had made a good choice for 4 years. They are entirely different kids and they needed entirely different schools.</p>
<p>momfromme -- I think it kind of depends on the school. Not all LACs are cut from the same cloth. So I really think your daughter will get the best info from attending admitted student events at each campus, if possible. Because it also depends on the person. </p>
<p>My d. was initially interested in several LAC's, but when she went for an overnight at one the fall of her senior year, she really hated it. I honestly think she felt trapped after 40 minutes on campus. Then she went to visit a friend who attends NYU, and she called me up ecstatic -- she absolutely knew she wanted a large school in a big city. </p>
<p>I guess we're lucky she figured that out in October and we didn't waste any application fees on LACs -- but the point is, it really isn't a question of whether "LACS are too insular" --it's a question about how your daughter feels about the fit. I think that's the concern she is expressing now -- she is trying to envision herself at each college, and she isn't altogether comfortable with the idea of 4 years at the LAC when she contrasts it with the resources of Big U. </p>
<p>So I think this is one question that really can't be answered on this board, at least a framed. We don't know your daughter, we don't know the particular schools. But mostly .... this is one of those things that your daughter will decide in the end mostly on her gut level feeling. </p>
<p>She may waffle back and forth several times during the month, and may also surprise you with her choice in the end. The best thing you can do is listen with an open mind -- let her bounce her ideas and concerns off you, but don't try to guide her decision one way or another, unless she specifically asks your advice.</p>
<p>Insular? My d. helped coordinate an opera production of five colleges, with faculty from each of the colleges participating, and produced the score to be used. It was attended by 2,300 people over three days. It was a paid research assistantship under the direction of one of the U.S.'s foremost proponents of early music - and not resident on her own campus. She had a travel grant to Cambodia, India, and Thailand. She has spent a year in Italy - and because of superior language instruction, her Italian is fluent - and been to Athens, Crete, Vienna, and Prague. She has now been awarded a paid research fellowship where a small number of faculty and students gather over dinner once a week to present papers to each other, and critique each other's research. </p>
<p>I taught at UChicago. There is NO humanities research for undergrads outside of senior theses, and no paid research - that's what I got paid the big bucks for. We asked about similar at Yale, and they told us they had none either. Neither of them had Oxford-style tutorials as they have at my alma mater. Neither had study abroad opportunities with the same level of linguistic requirements as at my d's school. </p>
<p>I am less familiar with sciences. I do know that my d's school awards 40 or so paid research assistantships for the first two years. Many of them are undertaken in a National Center for Genomics Research, and result in published papers. We saw nothing on this scale (for first- and second-year students) elsewhere. </p>
<p>It will depend on the school, of course. You have to do due diligence, whether LAC or large u.</p>
<p>I had thought that coming from a small school in a small, insular town (albeit, 1 hour from NYC), my son would have preferred a small LAC. Instead, his preferences were Berkeley, GWU and Tulane. Looks like he is ending up at Tulane, which I think is a great combination for him: big but not huge school, small class size and attention from profs. He said to me, "I'm tired of being in a small school, I really want to be somewhere larger." I'd listen to your daughter on this one, sounds like she has some good reasons for preferfing the large U.</p>
<p>I think this is a valuable conversation, even if it's been done before: for instance, I'm suddenly interested since my soon-to-be rising junior son has expressed an interest in smaller schools (not too interested in his brother's giant-sized state U). I can understand how if a kid knows what he wants to study going in (like Curmudgeon's daughter) he can check to see if the course offerings and research opportunities are enough to keep him engaged for four years, but what about the kid who is not sure about his major--what then?</p>
<p>momfromme, Your D is certainly asking important questions. I'll weigh in on 2 issues, and second the sentiment that, at this point, she ought to be asking these questions about individual institutions and not at the general level of LACs vs. research universities.</p>
<p>Research ops: I've seen more undergrad co-authors of articles in reviewed journals and prestigious meetings from elite LACs than at research universities. Involving undergrads in significant research is part of the culture and many LACs. (Look for clues like college-wide undergrad research seminars; Honors or Senior Scholar type programs that allow students to devote a whole year to a major research project; required senior theses.)</p>
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And even though they select for diversity, that diversity might be limited to people from different places and people who look different from each other, but not so much diversity in people's philosophies and approaches to life.
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<p>I think that the type of student that you'll find at top LACs and selective universities will be fairly similar when it comes to overall worldview.</p>
<p>Hereshoping....The LAC proponents will argue that for undecided kids, it's a better opportunity than big U's---they are able to get a full exposure to a bunch of different things at a more personal level. I'm trying to keep an open mind...</p>
<p>I have a son at an LAC and a daughter at a medium sized research university. I think they chose wisely for themselves. I also think your daughter's concerns are valid, especially, as katliamom pointed out, if the LAC is in an isolated location. These are exactly the kinds of considerations we want our kids to make when they are looking at "fit." Sometimes kids only get to this level of discrimination once they have already been accepted and they actually visualize themselves on the campus.<br>
My son does love his LAC - the smaller envirorment allows him to get to know everyone, which he likes. His school is also part of a larger consortium,(Claremeont schools) which helps a lot, however, and Los Angeles is accessible if they really want out of their bubble.
Congratulations to your daughter, and good luck to her in making that final decision. It sounds like she is in touch with what's important to her.</p>
<p>She does need to go out and do visits, but has announced that she hates the programmed events, thinks they're "phony," (shades of Houlden Caufield) and would rather visit less formally. Luckily we know people near the LAC, to which she would have to fly, and we can drive to the research university. I'm not sure what that sort of visit would look like other than walking around the campuses and seeing the surrounding areas, but maybe she can get connected with a few students and stop in to see some professors.</p>
<p>I really tried to get her to think about LAC vs. research university when doing the applications, but she claimed she didn't have a preference. One piece is that some of her response is based on what I see as an irrational basis -- that is, she doesn't like the postings of accepted students on the LAC facebook group. What's wrong with what she reads? They are too ready to want to be best friends and come off "phony" in their purported coolness. Of course, managing one's self-presentation is part of Facebook and the people posting are probably not even representative of the accepted student pool. I don't know if she really thinks that this is a good reason to not like the LAC or if it's a rationalization.</p>
<p>I think Curmudgeon has addressed the research opportunities question very accurately. The others--too small or too insular --would depend very much on the specific school I suppose, so I would be wary that you or your daughter may be looking for a single variable label which would simplify the decision process--and it may actually be better to just dive into what is hard about choosing among many good choices, rather than a reductive strategy that forecloses important features. As to "smaller than a high school"--I think this is a benefit in LACs because of how well-integrated (including close contact with diversity) LACs can be. Realistically, how many close friends will you have at one time? I think it is easier to find supportive warm (and often very enduring) relationships among 300 first years than among 3000+--but that may just be me. And while LAC life can seem idyllic or protected in ways university life is not--there is typically a rich array of opportunities to be connected to off-campus and abroad programs as a logical extension of the curriculum and career preparation. From my perspective, for many18 year olds the developmentally appropriate choice is a place they will "grow out of" by the time they graduate--rather than one they may struggle to "grow into" in the next 12 months... Ultimately, it has to do with which actual environment best fits where your daughter is at this stage in her life now.</p>
<p>Momfromme: Your daughter's asking the right questions as she makes her decision. As someone else points out, though, you can't paint all LACs with one brush. My S and I visited many, and the campus atmosphere feels very different at excellent and somewhat isolated places such as Middlebury or Williams and excellent and somewhat accessible places such as Wesleyan or Swarthmore. She should overnight at the schools she declares as finalists.</p>