Daughter frets -- Are LACs too insular?

Parents Corner
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I don't know if she really thinks that this is a good reason to not like the LAC or if it's a rationalization.

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<p>Even if it is a rationalization, her gut is telling her something. I don't think kids need to have strong and well-supported reasons to choose one school over another, as long as both are good choices. The goal here is for her to make choice that she will be happy with. It sounds like she's going through this process in a very normal way - the way kids do, not necessarily the way an adult would. But that's ok.</p>

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<p>here'shoping, D has changed from a Neuroscience with a Spanish minor to bio to a bio and chem double and she's been there less than a year. ;) Granted, she hasn't changed her desire to do medicine/medical research as a career and her major is still science . </p>

<p>I think overall most students have some clue as to their interest, at least in very broad strokes. D looked at the research opps in 4 different majors.</p>

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<p>Her top LAC choice is Macalester, which is right in St. Paul. I believe she could also take classes at the University of Minnesota, to which she can take a city bus. So it's not geographically isolated. She worries about the on-campus feel.</p>

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<p>From what I hear, Macalester is pretty diverse - lots of different, talented kids - plus it has all the cultural benefits of being in a city - don't know much about St. Paul, but Minneapolis has so much to offer. It's an LAC that's in a very different category from a Colby. Your D is asking the right questions, but I bet she'd be fine at Macalester (this is more to calm your concerns, since she is the one who needs to decide.)</p>

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<p>D was set on an urban, mid-size school. She wound up at small rural LAC, and she loves it! Now, if the FA had been better, she would have wound up in the city, and of all her other choices, he visit clinched it for her. And her LAC has already taken the kids in her major fields to NYC 3 times, Wash, DC, supported a trip to the Dominican Republic to help build and educate, and she will be going to Germany and Spain next year. Interestingly, she had to choose between a large city and a small, semi-rural atmosphere city for study abroad, and she was leaning toward the small city with the rural feel. She will be going to the big city, because the program is better, but she really would have preferred the smaller one. But with grad school looming, the program is so well ranked and exclusive, that it will be her "hook." Her physics major friends literally sleep in the lab, because they are doing a lot of research, etc., I can't enumerate all the research grants (and awards) given to the profs the last couple years, allowing students to have the opportunity to do the research. With no grad students, the prof becomes more involved. What a great situation - you really get to know the prof, and you learn from someone who really wants to teach. She just chose, in concert with her department chair, (yes, I said chose, NOT assigned) her major advisor, and his curriculum vitae just blew me out of the water! (World-renowned leader in his fields) This type of prof is usually the grad students' advisor.</p>

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<p>Given her strong preference for a city or college town, Mac certainly fit the bill. And I have great confidence in the quality of the education she will receive. Also, we have friends right in the area who she knows and likes, so she will also have folks to call on if need arises.</p>

<p>The research university she likes best is McGill - Again, right smack in a city, although one that's bigger and more culturally diverse by nature.</p>

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<p>Ah, McGill - one of the best kept secrets in north america :) Beautiful campus, beautiful city, amazing education at a wallet-friendly price. It's no secret to the CC crowd, of course, but let's keep the masses in the dark, shall we. To increase the odds our kids can maybe get in ;)</p>

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<p>This really is a personal preference decision. We seem to have a lot of people on cc who really favor the LAC environment. I'm not part of that group.
But a while back (and I wish I saved it) one of the posters had a long response which compared the Big U / LAC environment to those who compare a Buffet to a Fine Dining Experience. Some people like the intimacy and atmosphere of these fine dining restaurants where the maitre 'd or waiter may guide you along for the evening- vs. the "every man for himself" atmosphere that you encounter at a Big Buffet. I thought the comparisons were very apt for the situation.
I'm kinda partial to the buffet type person- but again on some occassions I may go with the Fine dining atmosphere.
If anyone knows the thread I'm thinking of- it may be appropriate to link it up.</p>

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<p>I did not read this entire thread so I apologize if this is redundant. I attended Macalester and my d has been accepted. I do not believe Macalester is insular in anyway. The student body is so diverse - economically, geographically, politically etc. that there are always lively discussions from various points of view. I agree that at some LAC's, one of which my daughter visited, the student bodies are homogenous, not at Mac. Also, being in the cities offers a multitude of opportunites. Most students are involved in community service somewhere off campus. Another asset is being in the consortium of colleges which allows Mac students to take courses at other colleges in the area, this is a great opportunity and expands the students horizons. If your d has not spent the night at Mac I suggest she do an overnight visit, in my experience that has been the deciding factor for my d. She spent the weekend at Mac last week and enjoyed her time there. She thought the professors were the best and most engaging of any she has seen. She also enjoyed her host and friends who varied from a New York socialite to a farmer from Sleepy Eye to a Native American from New Mexico and I bet they don't all have the same views, values and beliefs!</p>

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<p>marny1, I remember that post, and I'm pretty sure Hanna wrote it. I actually saved the link on my old computer, but after it crashed I lost all of my bookmarks... maybe someone else remembers which thread it was?</p>

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<p>momfromme: I haven't read this entire thread either, but I just want to mention w/regard to research opportunities-- that lots of folks believe that undergraduates will not have a lot of research opportunities at large research universities. One issue, however, that I never see posted here, is that NSF, in particular (and there may be others of which I am unaware) really has pushed having undergraduates involved in research. So when faculty members apply for NSF grants, NSF wants to know that they've included undergraduates in their proposal. So, any school that receives a large number of NSF grants, you can be fairly certain that undergraduates will have research opportunities connected to that (and not just juniors and seniors). So if that's one of her concerns, I'd look at both schools and determine the type of grants typically awarded at those schools and who funds them. Again, NSF really encourages that UG research when they fund these grants.</p>

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<p>Davidban - I am glad to hear that there is political diversity at Mac. My daughter's views, from what I know, are probably right in line with the political norm there, but she most definitely doesn't want to be around people who all agree with each other. She has always had a wide array of friends -- from different class backgrounds, with different points of view. (Although it would be quite hard for her to be friends with someone who she saw as intolerant.) She doesn't want to be isolated on a campus with a group of people who are all quite similar, and she wants a lively town/city surrounding. I think an overnight would be good, but she doesn't want to do it as part of the programs for accepted students.</p>

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<p>See if she can stay for at least one weekday overnight with a current student. She should try going to classes, hanging out, eating in the dining hall, and getting a real taste of life from the inside. </p>

<p>The admissions offices may be able to connect her with a current student who could host her. If not, parents on the Macalester and McGill boards will help you. This is really the only way to know and is especially important for someone who has strong opinions and reactions. What looks like a fit on paper or from walking around the campus may not be when viewed from the inside.</p>

<p>On the other hand, I suspect that, if two very different schools are extremely appealing to her, she might well be very happy at either one. It's just that she will be a different peson if she goes one way rather than the other (and you'll never fully know exactly how those differences manifest themselves), but that is the way with all important choices.</p>

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<p>Grace,
I agree with what you say about important choices! I can think of so many in my life, including how one choice led me to meet my husband. Life is quirky. I am just happy she has done so well with her admissions (6/6 so far) and has two strong choices that we can make happen.</p>

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<p>McGill and Macalaster are really pretty far apart, for being institutions in big cities with roughly the same types of students. McGill isn't just large, it's very, very large. Not only does it not require kids to live on campus, it essentially doesn't permit it after the first year. And you may want to check on the work permit rules (academic and non-) if your daughter thinks she may ever want to work there. Also -- Montreal is waaaay hipper than St. Paul, and McGill is close to where it's happening. Macalaster, I think, isn't.</p>

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<p>jack, that's a very interesting point about NSF. It makes sense. It gives the kids another tool in making the choice.</p>

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<p>Mac is very accomodating for overnight visits, just call admissions with the date and they will set up a host, classes to attend etc.. If my d choses Mac she and your daughter could argue political views all day long. My d's views are pretty far right compared to most of Mac. Admissions actually told her that they like to accept students like her in order to facilitate lively debates and discussions. I, on the other hand, am worried she will get tarred and feathered by the liberals :) I had to laugh, during our visit there was a student organization outside the campus center attempting to get signatures on a petition to legalize marijuana - they were giving away brownies. Maybe I should have eaten one of those brownies, might have made the drive home more mellow. It was also amusing to watch the various parents of prospective students react to the signs and literature that the committee was handing out.</p>

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<p>Here is an excerpt from the Macalester website written by a recent grad. Research opportunities are easily available at Mac, probably more so then at a large university.</p>

<p>Research opportunities for undergraduates are an exceptional hallmark of Macalester. </p>

<p>Graduate schools look for students who have strong research potential. In economics they generally look at three criteria: strong college grades, the graduate school exam and the letters of recommendation. The academic sophistication I developed as a student at Macalester, coupled with its resources, made me an attractive candidate on all three counts for Princeton, where I'm doing graduate work in economics.</p>

<p>At Macalester there is an atmosphere of cooperation in scholarship, where small class sizes guarantee that professors will have time to listen and work with your ideas. In one instance, in an econometrics course, a fellow student and I realized that our final projects for the course would be heavily reliant on a technique that had not been covered in class. Our professor actually set aside a few hours over the week to give us a series of lectures on this method.</p>

<p>Because I worked with faculty on a constant basis, my professors knew me well and could write thorough recommendations on my behalf, something that graduate schools emphasize.</p>

<p>Coming from Macalester I had a striking advantage over many Princeton candidates, because I had done serious research. During the summer after my junior year, I was a paid research assistant for a professor in the Math Department. This was the first opportunity I had to do full-time research and I loved it. This experience confirmed for me that I actually wanted to pursue a graduate education. After I got into grad school the most frequent comment I heard from the Princeton admission staff was how impressed they had been with my research project.</p>

<p>Simply put, there is no way I could have done paid research in a larger university where graduate students receive most research funds. Research opportunities for undergraduates are an exceptional hallmark of Macalester.</p>

<p>When the time came to choose a school, my professors gave me valuable insight into which schools would be a good match for me and put me in contact with Macalester alumni who were attending those schools. The alumni in turn provided me with the inside scoop on the Ph.D. programs I had been admitted to, which made my decision about where to attend a lot less daunting.</p>

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<p>Dear momfromme: </p>

<p>Here's a suggestion -- have your daughter contact one or two current Macalester students who are doing research. I'm sure that the science departments, for example, can put her in touch with some honors students who can discuss the school, research opportunities, faculty contact and support, connections to graduate programs, fellowships, etc. In my son's experience, such students are eager to talk. </p>

<p>If your daughter anticipates a career in scientific research, she will have ample opportunity to do it in grad school at a large university. Hardworking liberal arts graduates are highly prized by graduate programs. I attended law school at a large state university. Though law school isn't really 'research driven,' graduates of LACs seemed as a general matter to be better prepared for the experience. The faculty clearly liked having LAC graduates in their classes. On the other hand, some of the star students were graduates of state universities. </p>

<p>Hope this helps.</p>

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<p>Great suggestions, everyone.</p>

<p>Re: McGill -- It certainly is much larger than Mac, but it is not as large some U.S. state universities like UMichigan and Ohio State. I think the Twin Cities are great, but I'd have to agree that Montreal gets higher points for the hipness factor. And one of my friends thinks that part of what's going on is that she would prefer to be closer to home, within driving range, and some of the other comments are rationalizations. I don't know if she has developmental ability to have self-insight on what underlies her response. </p>

<p>But she is not closed to Mac and I do want her to check it out more fully -- It was her #1 choice at one point in the application process and we even drove down to Boston for a 30 minute interview, so clearly there are things about it that she has liked and still likes (and which propel it above the 4 acceptances that she's not looking at so much right now).</p>