Daughter Hates Her Matches And Safeties

Parents Forum
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<p>but I put it down feeling like, "Dang, we're setting the bar kinda low here, aren't we?"</p>

<p>Life isnt' a high jump and neither is college for that matter- I suggest reading one of the threads about attending schools that offer generous merit aid or " lower ranked" schools.
You would be surprised what an intelligent, hardworking & creative student can make out of attending, " even" a backwater public university.</p>

<p>I had to go back and see if the CTCL had swapped schools like Whitman, Goucher and Marlboro ( & Reed), for schools like _____ fill in the blank U.
Nope</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I wasn't blown away. I can see why it has value for some people, maybe many people, but I put it down feeling like, "Dang, we're setting the bar kinda low here, aren't we?"

[/quote]
With that kind of attitude, I can see why you are having a problem finding matches & safeties for your daughter. Guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. </p>

<p>Sorry. I won't bother posting any more suggestions. If schools like Reed or Rhodes are beneath your consideration, then you and your daughter obviously are looking for something that doesn't exist. Good luck with your continued quest to find reasons to hate more schools -- I'm sure it makes for an interesting college search.</p>

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<p>calmom: I've always read your screenname as "calm-mom"- though that post didn't sound so calm!</p>

<p>The beauty of a forum like this is that in addition to the intended recipient of advice (who may not have the best attitude), there are others who may be more receptive and (as zoosermom put it) are silently taking notes. I have learned from this thread and I'm sure others have too.</p>

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<p>vicariousparent -- I will tell you why I got ticked off. I came in towards the end of a long thread and offered a suggestion of a book. In the same post I also wrote, "I really think that it changed my son's perspective on what to look for in a college way back when."</p>

<p>The response was that the OP had read the book and that "we're setting the bar kinda low here". </p>

<p>So not only does the OP insult me by making a disdainful crack about the book I suggested, but she did it in a context when it was an insult to my son as well. </p>

<p>It seems to me that when a poster asks for advice -- then some good manners and graciousness is in order even if the advice given is unwelcome. </p>

<p>Thank you for reminding me that others might take advantage of the advice even if the original poster rejects it.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
It seems to me that when a poster asks for advice -- then some good manners and graciousness is in order even if the advice given is unwelcome.

[/quote]
I think this is worth repeating, as several well-meaning posters here offering lots and lots of (IMO) helpful advice are feeling like they are whizzing in the wind. It does get tiresome. A simple "thank you for your help- thats an interesting idea and I'll see if I can encourage my daughter to look at it with open eyes" would be nice to hear.</p>

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<p>One last thought before heading into work-- Cindy has indicated elsewhere that they were able to afford AP and Chem tutors for their daughter. With the college safety decision being such a struggle, perhaps investing in a private college counselor would be in order (though its a little late-- at least one consult to pick their brain might be worthwhile). I am, however, braced to have this suggestion rejected too... :(</p>

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<p>jym, I suggested that ^^^ in post 159 but no response.</p>

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<p>Haven't read this whole thread but as a long time informal college advisor with my youngest due to start college next fall- I want to direct this at newbies who may be reading along.</p>

<p>Don't like the term" match- reach or safety". All the school on a student short list should be schools where they would happily attend, it's just that some may have rolling admission and confirm acceptance in October, and some may have very few spots available- perhaps even admit only 10% of apps.</p>

<p>I * like* Loren Pope & I think that CTCL tour and book is invaluable as a tool, although not as unique when first written when emphasis elsewhere, was more about numbers- and big names.</p>

<p>I also wanted to mention that my older D, who attended private prep schools K-12, which were extremely competitive and rigorous, had good stats, fantastic recommendations & great essay, had as her * first* choice one of the CTCL schools. </p>

<p>This college was also a reach, as her numbers were on the bottom 50% of students- more about 30%-20% actually.</p>

<p>However she had other very strong factors in her application, first generation college student, gap year of service and very strong writer.</p>

<p>She was accepted and she graduated from this school a few years ago- and loved the experience, even though it kicked her in the butt.</p>

<p>If it wasn't for Mr Pope's books, she probably wouldn't have even applied because we wouldn't have known much about the school- not having a football team, or thousands or grads every year for PR.</p>

<p>My other child has decided on an instate university, she wasn't thrilled about it initially, she wanted to go out of state- to a school out of our price range. However, the more she is now learning about this other school, the more interested she is & I am confident that she will have a good experience there.
It's about attitude- you get out of it, what you put into it.</p>

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<p>Sorry, youdontsay-- I didnt see your post # 159. Giving credit where credit is due. It is a good idea to talk to a private college counselor. When my older s was looking at colleges, he researched a ton of them and we looked at a ton as well. Non of them were giving him that "I love it here" response that he wanted to feel. We met with his college counselor at the end of his jr year, but she didnt really have any helpful additions to his list (and the ones she suggested were really not at all what he was looking for-- eg she suggested Hampshire for a rather straight-laced engineering kid :eek: ). Anyway, one of the other counselors has a side private consulting service. I asked her if I could purchase an hour of her time. She wouldnt take any $$, but after hearing a little bit about my s, looked at his scores, gpa, etc, she came up with a few wonderful recommendations that he hadn't considered. One is the school he fell in love with and applied ED. He graduated last spring. Granted, this consult was to find the "first choice" school, (and we did this during the summer before his senior year) but none the less, the opportunity to talk to a professional when one needs advice is invaluable. (That said, there have been some professionals here offering useful advice with very little data about the candidate). When one is paying $$$ for advice, they might be more likely to consider it.</p>

<p>EK, small point, which I know you are aware, but for those who dont-- you said you like Loren Pope. Sadly, that should be in the past tense, as he died at the age of, I believe 98, about 6 or 7 weeks ago.</p>

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<p>One of the CTCL is in our back yard. I knew about the school long before I knew about the book. My son happens to love it. Definite drawbacks (no football team) but academically a fit. He loved the personal attention we received there and at a second CTCL we visited that we were told was similar to the first and where many of his school's grads have gone. Based on that, S is researching a third CTCL in another state.</p>

<p>I can agree that they might not be for everyone, but they are perfect for some people. Without a lot of aid, my son won't be going to any of them and will have to opt for a state school, but there is a lot to like at the two CTCL schools we visited.</p>

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<p>The newbie posters here don't remember Jamimom, a long time poster with a big, complicated family. She had many words of wisdom for us.... but one of her favorite sayings was to remind people who were wrapped up in getting their kid into one of 3 or 5 or 10 acceptable colleges was: don't forget that college is part disneyworld, part state penitentiary (or something to that effect). Meaning- our kids are going to college and hopefully coming out enthusiastic and passionate about something (the disney part); and ready to join the human race/be productive adults (the penitentiary part.)</p>

<p>I think if you're lucky enough to have a kid who is excited about Rutgers, UMD, UVA, etc. and you live in one of those states, and your kid has the stats to be admitted, you don't need to worry about disney/prison too much. Likewise, if you've got a kid who wants the Swarthmore/Williams/Princeton experience, and they can get in, you can afford it (or the school will help you afford it) you don't need to worry. But if your kid has a spotty academic record but is still college material, or has some funky interests, or needs a more nurturing environment.... what then?</p>

<p>I think for everyone else, books like CTCL are really really helpful. What's the point of your kid applying to a bunch of schools they can't get admitted to.... or getting in to a school where they'll be miserable.... or just being too de-motivated by the high stakes poker game of HYP admissions to even get excited about college at all???? Even if your kid isn't interested in a particular Pope school, just getting the kid to read about different experiences is a helpful learning process. </p>

<p>So to all of you feeling demotivated on this thread, take heart. There is a newbie parent out there reading this who is getting good ideas for their kid, or just opening their eyes to the range of possibilities.</p>

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<p>This is a very interesting - sometimes great - thread. I had to stop reading at around page 11 because work calls. Here is my 2 cents as a mom with son applying this year. The approach we took towards safeties was to have FUN with searching for them. We did not get in the car - we dug into books and went online. He found one early on, applied in July and was accepted mid-September. Does he WANT to attend that school? Not really - but I have to say they keep throwing money at him which is mighty appealing to me! We have not allowed our son - and I mean we have NOT ALLOWED our son to have an attitude or an ego tied to schools he thinks he should get into/are beneath him/etc. This of all years is not a time for seniors to be super selective about where THEY think they could attend. It's largely a crapshoot. OP - it seems like you've had some good chats with your daughter, and hopefully she'll place her very limiting criterion aside in order to find some real diamonds for matches/safeties. As to other posters, I am amazed at some of the safety/matches that have been suggested. I've heard Gettysburg is big on demonstrated interest, Davidson is hardly anyones safety (esp after NCAA success last year) and Richmond has seen a huge jump in applications already. Additionally, it seems daughter wants a not-so small school - Davidson is small. Conn College is small, as is Trinity. My son loved Bucknell, liked Wake and liked Elon. Another schools suggested to him (that I don't recall seeing already in this thread) is Furman but perhaps that is small too - we never looked into it. I'll keep thinking about this as I go about the day. Good luck!</p>

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<p>bibbist, I mentioned Furman a while back. </p>

<p>I'm taking notes, too -- and thinking that I should try to find someone in the area who knows S2's school program and can help us realistically assess his chances. We have one of those flagships that does a very good job as a safety, but he is not that enthused (yet) -- he hasn't visited, though has many friends who attend. The other catch is that he wants a school where he can play in his sport (D-III) and with an intense intellectual atmosphere, and some of the schools he has liked a lot don't offer his sport.</p>

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<p>Ya know, I happen to be a private college counselor who does this for pay. I like to volunteer on the forum both with my counselor hat and with my parent hat (I have two college kids) and to reach many at once. The OP has given us very little information to go on in terms of her D's profile and her selection criteria (other than the school better be "good enough"). So, it's hard. I see a lot of schools being rejected with no follow up from the OP about those schools and I guess many have been rejected out of hand. </p>

<p>I liked the suggestion that someone made to give the daughter a parameter and limit that she needs two matches and two safeties. The OP can certainly do some research and leave a list of possible schools for her D to look into but also the D should look into others. But the parents should insist on matches and safeties. The D can thank them for their wisdom at a later date, LOL. Again, the matches are important because the reaches are too chancy and if she is not enamored with attending a safety, why avoid schools "in between". I am convinced that an 18 year old could be happy at many different schools (not ALL schools, but MANY). If it means going for more visits, do it. </p>

<p>I'm getting a sense that your D thinks she is too good for a lot of schools out there. I truly don't know your D's profile other than an approximate ballpark for her SAT (and to me, SATS are NOT NEARLY enough to go by). But that's all you "semi" gave. So, let me say that I have a D whose profile was much stronger than your D's (I THINK). She had matches and safeties. None were beneath her. Because she had such a strong profile, she could afford to have safeties that may be someone else's reaches and were still selective. Her safeties were Lehigh and Conn College. By the way, as a valedictorian, all vals in our state are offered a free ride to UVM (a very fine university) and she was offered that and also Honors College (just 100 into Honors College). But she had no interest in UVM as it did not match her selection criteria (not because the school is not good enough...she had particular selection criteria) and so she didn't say, "well, I have a safety school that I'm automatically in at, even with a free ride and Honors College and so I don't need safety schools on my list!" No, no. Ya see, that was not the right safety for her. So, she found two safety schools, Lehigh and Conn College. She didn't even consider UVM to be ON her list, as it was not on her list but the free ride CAME to her. So, she did not want to go to UVM and so she found two safeties for her true list of colleges. She also had matches. She also was not into prestige and she had never viewed college rankings. As it turned out, in the end, after all her acceptances were in hand, she had to narrow the accepted schools down. We decided to do return visits (had seen each one already at least once, and a couple twice) for the accepted student open houses in spring and I asked her to narrow it down to her favorite three acceptances. The kid was accepted at Penn, an Ivy. She knocked it off the list. She preferred two of her match schools (Tufts and Smith) more than Penn. She ended up at Brown. But she was not above ANY school. </p>

<p>I think your D's attitude could use some readjustment and you may have to be the one to get her to readjust it. It does seem that you also think she is above certain colleges. But ya know, the way your D's list is right now, she could be rejected at the reaches and have to go to College of Charleston (not a bad school by any means but she is a stronger student I imagine) or perhaps UMD (which is not a shoe in for her) and she doesn't even WANT to go to UMD but it's just "there." I don't see why you'd be happy if these are the only options she is given. It makes MORE sense to add some matches where she has a realistic chance (50-50) and also another safety that she likes enough about it to attend, even if it is not her favorite dream come true.</p>

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<p>I think it is quite clear that the OP KNOWS that most of the schools on the current list are reaches, and that her D needs a couple of safeties and matches. She gets it. That's why she started this thread.</p>

<p>She also listed the schools that her D has looked at and rejected, which happened to include both of the schools <em>I</em> suggested, as well as many that others suggested. It's not her fault that her kid didn't like them. </p>

<p>She says that she doesn't think she'll get anywhere with her D if she goes back to her with the same schools her D has already rejected. So she has identified a couple of NEW ones from those suggested here and is going to propose those.</p>

<p>I don't see that she deserves all these lectures and all this opprobrium. She knows her D, warts and all. She's working with the situation at hand. Yes, she hasn't revealed her D's stats. She says she promised not to. </p>

<p>I've noticed that many people become huffy if a poster doesn't accept their suggestions--especially if their kid applied to or attends the school. Last year, when I was trying to interest my very stubborn, high-statted and highly intellectual S in realistic safeties, at least one person took great offense that I didn't think my kid would be terribly inspired by a lengthy list of small, midwestern LACs. (His GC said she thought he'd be "bored" at Brandeis after a short while, so his chances of being enthralled for four years at Otterbein, for example, were probably small.) </p>

<p>The OP's D seems to have a lot of issues around peer perception and pride. A lot of kids do. The OP has to work with that, and it seems to me that that's what she's trying to do.</p>

<p>I would concur that hiring an independent counselor for a consult and taking the parent/child dynamic out of the equation is probably an excellent idea.</p>

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<p>Early on in this thread I PMed the OP and followed up several times. I had something in common with her and felt I could provide her some resource specific to her situation. I think some are misjudging her big time. There really are some valid reasons why she did not choose to reveal everything and she has alluded to that. Her list isn't crazy. </p>

<p>As far as the bar being set low comment, I could be wrong, but I <em>really</em> don't think that is what she meant - that the schools themselves were unworthy. I think she was referring to the bar being set too low for <em>the guidebook</em> - that is what she elaborated on after the comment - her honest opinion was that the guides did not do a good job of stressing the negatives as well as the positives of the schools. Any school has plusses and minuses. I have to agree with Cindy in that as MUCH as I valued these books as resources, their purpose was really not to present these schools in an unbiased way. I say that as someone whose D had a CTCL school as a rolling admission safety that was quite high on her list, safety or no. When we were investigating this school we had to dig deeper, speak to students, read the school newspaper etc. to find that, just like ANY place ( including the super selectives) not everything is perfection or all things to all people. CTCL is no Insider's Guide - it advocates for a certain type of school - which may or may not be a good fit for every student. Knowing there are factors involved that Pope does not address for Cindy's D, Cindy went on to say that if you ended up at such a school and then realized later that there was another side to things, that would not be too great. That's all she meant, IMO. I will also say that I did not get the feeling that the OP looks down her nose at any school in the country - to the contrary. </p>

<p>I think it is all too easy in a setting like this to misinterpret posts and people. In real life it is possible to doublecheck meaning, ask for clarification, note attitude, tone of voice and body language. None of that is possible here, so I really like to give posters the benefit of the doubt. I also feel that these threads are really meant for more than just the OP - many people are reading and gather great suggestions.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I would concur that hiring an independent counselor for a consult and taking the parent/child dynamic out of the equation is probably an excellent idea.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>In my line of work, I notice this to be an enormous benefit. While parents can and do help their kids, one benefit of an independent counselor is that the emotional "baggage" is not present. I find the kids will often listen to me more than their parents and in many cases, I likely am saying the same thing the parent would have said but it is different coming from me! :) I'm not emotionally attached. So, that sort of thing may help the OP with her child. </p>

<p>I completely agree that some schools suggested here, the D already said no to before this thread appeared. But I have seen many more schools mentioned and I don't think the OP's D (who isn't here of course) knows the schools enough to reject them out of hand. I may not have followed this closely enough, but I have seen certain schools mentioned that I am not clear if mom or the D have truly looked into such as:
(some are most likely to be matches and some are safeties...as much as we have to go on)</p>

<p>Brandeis
Rollins
Skidmore
Providence College
Sarah Lawrence
Hofstra
University of Rochester
Macalester
Conn College
Trinity
Muhlenberg
McGill
Drew
Syracuse
Northeastern
Seton Hall
Fordham
James Madison
Wagner
Carnegie Mellon
Tulane
Bates
UMiami (Mom suggested, D truly knows too little about it)
Gettysburg
Miami of Ohio
Clemson
UMichigan
Bard
Wheaton (MA)
Trinity (CT)
College of New Jersey
Franklin and Marshall
College of the Holy Cross
Centre College
DePaul
Haverford
Santa Clara
Villanova
Clark
Vassar (reach/match?)
Furman
Whitman
Reed
Colorado College
Ithaca College
Claremont McKenna
Lafayette
Union College
Lake Forest</p>

<p>Again, I suggest the D explore each school in depth and list pros and cons for each and see which schools match SOME of her selection criteria. Right now, she only has to apply, not attend. Come spring, when options are in hand (hopefully), she can pick which school matches MORE of her selection criteria than others. Very few schools match up to ALL of one's selection criteria. If she thinks the school will be too "blond", it may have ten other reasons in her pro column. If she can find ten pros and only three "cons", it is worth applying. If it were me, I'd want clear pros/cons that reveal indepth research before the kid rejects the school out of hand. I am not convinced the D knows these schools enough to make that kind of decision yet.</p>

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<p>her honest opinion was that the guides did not do a good job of stressing the negatives as well as the positives of the schools</p>

<p>I think that the way the books are written- it depends on your criteria whether a characteristic is a plus or a minus.</p>

<p>It's been a while since I read the books- but it is most helpful to determine your own criteria before you start looking at rankings or standings.</p>

<p>For example- older D wanted a small school- to someone else a school of less than 1500, would be a huge drawback ( to her sister for instance), Pope didn't need to elaborate on that- because we each are looking for something different.</p>

<p>To someone that is looking forward to clubs like the Greeks, a list of schools that don't have frats or sororities, is not going to be appealing.
Likewise, if they are interested in big time school sports- I dont' believe that most or maybe even any of the schools in CTCL, are big in sports like basketball or football, many may have strong sports teams, but they are in events like fencing or rugby. ( or ultimate ;) - which I actually shouldn't wink at, as it is now a pretty big sport in it's own right)</p>

<p>To be fair, I haven't read any college guide which pointed out flat out the negatives of a school, Bucknell PR for example doesn't say that Greeks are a huge part of campus life and if you don't participate you will feel left out. It also doesn't say that Greeks have the best housing and that is one reason perhaps for the high participation rate. But all you have to do is read stats- which are best gotten from the colleges websites which are updated more often than books are.
I also haven't read guides that elaborate on what it is like to attend college in a town known just as much for the prison.</p>

<p>It does help to get a range of sources- as long as you understand the perspective from which it was written. Pope has a bias toward smaller schools, that have few grad students, & have most if not all classes taught by profs instead of TA's.</p>

<p>IMO, they are a nice counterpoint to the guides that give higher ratings to schools that have large numbers of alums paying the football coaches huge salary.</p>

<p>This book also has some overlap with CTCL but includes more schools- I agree that a counselor is a great idea- because info from a third party is often heard much more clearly, than when it comes from a parent.
Cool</a> Colleges: Donald Asher 1580088392 $21.95</p>

<p>I wish the OP luck as I know that it can be frustrating to deal with older teens who " know everything".
Leave some books around- even if she doesn't change her list- it may help her to open up her perspective a bit more.</p>

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<p>"Dang, we're setting the bar kinda low here, aren't we?"</p>

<p>The bar is actually set quite high to be included in CTCL. They each have something that sets them apart from the pack. For example, one of them produces the highest percentage of future PhDs in biology in the country.</p>

<p>I agree completely with hiring a good private college counselor. Sure, it's just anecdotal, but we did so for both our daughters; they each developed realistic first choice schools, and then were both admitted to them, including one of the CTCL schools (where she is now a senior, and couldn't be happier).</p>

<p>cindysphinx, you just need to gather a bit more information before you miss a good match for your daughter.</p>

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<p>If your D is willing to go out West, I forgot to add one more: Pepperdine.</p>