<p>I think part of OP's problem is that D's public school wants the final complete list very soon so there isn't too much time to do more research, visits, and probably not enough time to bring about a real shift in D's (or mom's) attitude. </p>
<p>I hereby resolve to help my D (currently a junior) research, visit, and settle on some really good and realistic safeties and matches well before November.</p>
<p>My experience of US colleges being 99.7 % gleaned from CC (How i wished I'd met you folks 2 years ago!), I just want to add that my D acted more or less like the OPs: 3 very high reaches and a match. The only reason she had a match was that we met a very nice woman at a college fair who persuaded ME that it could be a good fit for my daughter, and as there was no supplementary essay, I just sent an extra copy of the recs and grades. Of course she swore that nothing on earth would make her go there, and that the whole thing was a waste of stamps. Come May, she was not even wait-listed at her reaches, and she had the choice of staying in Europe or going to the despised college. two years later, she is as happy as pie and has never mentioned transferring. Your daughter is very probably extremely stressed out by the whole college process, and had managed to infect you as well. Just relax. She may well get into her reaches, and if not, you can always tell her that as she hates all the other schools where she is accepted, you will make the choice for her based on merit aid/Fin aid, and she can spend most of her first semester preparing to transfer while you curl up with a good book (not CTCL!) and a glass of iced tea.</p>
<p>Now we're getting a bit silly. Two of the original criteria were driving distance from the Maryland DC suburbs, and not being Catholic. Granted, the OPD's original list included one school each that violated one of those criteria. But Pepperdine? OK, it's not Catholic. But what are the chances that a kid who has been raised as a Catholic and declares herself allergic to Catholic colleges, and who rejected [Wake Forest?] because it seemed "too blonde", is going to be happy at a heavily Evangelical college that has to be one of the blondest places on earth (excepting Scandinavia)?</p>
<p>Claremont-McKenna a safety??????? Surely thats not what you meant, Sooze!!</p>
<p>Roshke-
You are fortunate to have aditional information that the rest of us do not. You are able to give more directed advice. The rest of us are trying to be helpful and feel like we are getting either ignored or drop-kicked. As one poster suggested, getting a polite "no thank you" feels nicer than a blunt "no way Jose".Thats where the frustration comes in. Plus, it is certainly possible to give ranges of scores, GPAs, rank, extra curriculars, etc without violating a confidence. If a patient goes to a doctor and wants treatment, but is unwilling to be forthright with symptoms, or is vague or cagey, the doctor cannot adequately treat the patient. That may not be the best analogy, but thats what it feels like.</p>
<p>While the OPs daughters "issues" are none of our business, whatever is being witheld is obviously important. There seems to be some additional criteria that requires looking at that we aren't privvey to. Well, so be it, but the way this is being handled has become annoying to those trying to be helpful. Its gone from feeling like an opportunity to be helpful, to having become a game, the rules of which we don't know, and one which now we don't want to play.</p>
<p>vicariousparent...I agree there is no time right now to do the visits before applying but she only has to apply, not attend. The visits can come in winter or spring. She just needs more options as the OP admits to. But I have seen kids (and the OP's D seems like one of these), who have not truly explored the schools enough to say why they LIKE them or why they DISLIKE them. They hear a name and dismiss them out of hand. I would insist on the kid exploring the schools online and in guidebooks and writing out information they gleaned about each school, how that school matches (or not) with their own list of selection criteria, what is appealing, pros/cons. Then, compare who well or not the school matches up with their selection criteria and how the schools compare. Surely D can find two matches and two safeties that have at least SOMETHING about them that matches what she is looking for even if the school doesn't match 100% with what she wants. Then, she applies. She sees her options in spring and can be pickier at that time. I would insist on such notes on each school as lists or on a spreadsheet (as I do with my clients in fact). </p>
<p>For example....OP's D has not yet visited UMiami. She says it may be "too blond." She doesn't know that to be true until she visits. Does the school match any of her other criteria? Size, location, the department she may wish to major in, ECs that interest her, etc. (I am not real clear on OP's D's selection criteria actually). So, let's say UMiami meets seven things D is looking for. She has some hesitation about a thing or two. But it meets enough criteria to APPLY. It compares more favorably to colleges X, Y, Z. Put it on the list. This is just an example.</p>
<p>jym, I was not listing SAFETIES. I was listing both matches and safeties in one list, though in a prior post on this thread, I listed some separately. Not only that, I have no clue what is a safety or match for this kid as we have way too little to go on other than her current list of schools and what they say are reaches, matches, safeties on that list. Claremont McKenna would not be a safety. I suggested it as a potential match. </p>
<p>I did not know that the OP had to be in driving distance of home. She applied to Northwestern. If she is willing to fly to Northwestern, I added some other schools she might fly to. Even the mom said they will now look into DePaul and Tulane. Those are not near DC. </p>
<p>I can understand the mom not posting the girl's specific stats. I have not posted my kids' stats either! But she could give some general information so that we can help her more accurately. She could give what percentage of the class her D may fall in, the rigor of her courseload within context of her HS.....an idea of her academic record.....the level of her EC involvement/achievements (not even specifically what these are), etc.</p>
<p>JHS-
I thought one of the criteria was that the school NOT be too close to the MD/DC suburbs (see this post) <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1061301454-post193.html%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1061301454-post193.html</a> There was at one time, if I recall correctly, a desire to be within a days drive, but then schools in the south were being looked at, and I think the driving radius increased. Maybe the "critical information" that we dont have is that she is afraid of flying??? Just a thought......</p>
<p>*** and Sooze-
I was going by your statement above your very detailed list (nice review of this long, long thread) that "(some are most likely to be matches and some are safeties...as much as we have to go on)" which makes it sound like CMC was on the list of safeties.</p>
<p>From the limited info we have, with ACT being in the lower half of the avg scores of her match schools (I think thats what the OP said-- could possibly been of her reach school, but I dont recall) Claremont McKenna would still be, IMO a reach, especially if you think Vassar is a reach- match. I believe all this kiddo needs to find a few more safeties.</p>
<p>JHS....I believe when you pick schools, they may not match up in EVERY which way you want. If a school is "too blond", it may meet ten other things you want....size, location, strong in your major, offers a particular EC you want, etc. You give in one area to get another. My D applied to Conn College. It was smaller than the ideal size she wanted and wasn't near a city like she wanted. But it had other redeeming qualities....her intended field of study, nice campus, her EC area of interest, selectivity even if a safety school, and so on. It wasn't her ideal school. It was good enough to apply to as a safety and good enough to attend.</p>
<p>Wow, do you guys have alot of patience....especially soozie...I wouldn't even attempt to provide any additional guidance when all are "shooting in the dark", but I give you alot of credit.....hope OP appreciates the help; I know that I would.....</p>
<p>cindysphinx,
If your D is asking you for your sincere advice, than she deserves your sincere advice. If my D would tell me that she does not like my advice, I would tell her that I gave her what she has asked me. It is really your decision where this all will lead. I advised my D and she followed, and she is very happy with it (currently sophmore). However, we had similar precedence, where she went to HS of my first choice, not hers, and thanked me for that many times. So, she had this reason to trust my judgement. If your D is asking you, she must have her reasons to trust your judgement also. So, why not to tell her exactly what you think. I based my decision in both HS and college chioces on what school would be the best fit for my child, not somebody else. The best wishes!</p>
<p>jym, as rodney says, we are shooting in the dark when asssessing the OP's D's chances at schools or even the fit. Be that as it may, I think Cindy said that her D fell in the lowish end of the mid SAT ranges for the reach or top schools, not the match schools. For what that is worth.</p>
<p>Also, when I help recommend schools to students, they fill out an extensive questionnaire for me. I don't just go by SAT/ACT scores (and we don't truly even know what this girl's scores are for that matter or how even her scores are on the subsections, etc.).</p>
<p>"I think this is worth repeating, as several well-meaning posters here offering lots and lots of (IMO) helpful advice are feeling like they are whizzing in the wind. It does get tiresome. A simple "thank you for your help- thats an interesting idea and I'll see if I can encourage my daughter to look at it with open eyes" would be nice to hear."</p>
<p>OK, this is totally not fair.</p>
<p>I have thanked everyone several times already. </p>
<p>I have taken several suggestions on board and discussed them with D last night.</p>
<p>Part of participating in a discussion like this on a board like this is that you might make a suggestion and it might not be accepted immediately or at all. That's the nature of the beast. Surely you can see how it is unreasonable to expect any OP to act on and embrace the suggestions of scores of people in a hundred posts.</p>
<p>I will update you in a minute on how the discussion went (although I'm waiting for a phone call and so might get interrupted). I also want to read the rest of the posts on this thread since last night.</p>
<p>I did think it important to address this one point before an out-and-out dogpile results.</p>
<p>Calmom, my joke about prison wasn't directed at you and wasn't intended as an insult. It was intended as a swipe at the book (once again, assuming I am remembering the same book). I apologize that my remarks upset you, but I did find the book problematic for the reasons I and at least one other person noted.</p>
<p>Cindy -- who gets into trouble all the time because she just cannot resist the urge to make a joke when it is least appropriate</p>
<p>"One last thought before heading into work-- Cindy has indicated elsewhere that they were able to afford AP and Chem tutors for their daughter. With the college safety decision being such a struggle, perhaps investing in a private college counselor would be in order (though its a little late-- at least one consult to pick their brain might be worthwhile). I am, however, braced to have this suggestion rejected too... "</p>
<p>D is working with a retired school counselor from her high school, whom we are paying for her time. She also consults her current guidance counselor at the school.</p>
<p>Sorry that I didn't address this suggestion specifically before. I did mention a couple of times that D's counselor thinks her list is appropriate and that she would be admitted to UMD.</p>
<p>Folks, this is a very long thread. I don't expect everyone to remember everything. Let's be careful about making incorrect assumptions or dismissive remarks about the situation or my approach/motives/intellect/etc. that might turn out to be factually incorrect.</p>
<p>Ugh. Ugh, ugh, ugh.</p>
<p>You guys have written <em>so</em> much! I appreciate all of the efforts to help us with our problems. Anybody still watch Saturday Night Live with that skit they do called "MacGruder" where the guy has seconds to defuse a time bomb but he keeps getting distracted by his life problems? That's how I feel. The bomb goes off on January 1, and things just keep getting more and more complicated!</p>
<p>OK, here's what happened last night.</p>
<p>I told D that I was concerned that her list was top-heavy. I told her I was worried that she might not get into her reach schools (she knew this already). I told her I was worried that some freak thing might happen and she might not get into Bucknell. I told her I was worried that the economic crisis would boost applications to UMD so much that it might no longer be a safety or match for her. I told her I felt strongly that we should try to find 2-3 more schools where she would definitely get in. I mentioned DePaul, Tulane and U of Richmond and suggested we have a look at their web sites. </p>
<p>Her answer surprised me and probably won't make anyone here especially happy.</p>
<p>She said that if she could not be admitted into a school that thrills her, then she would go to UMD (or Charleston if UMD declined). She says she would rather just pay in-state tuition at UMD than be someplace she thinks is less than wonderful. She is not interested in having more choices in April for the sake of having more choices. She says she is prepared to make her worst-case scenario choice right now: UMD (or Charleston, if UMD says no). Period.</p>
<p>This isn't the way I would handle it if I were her, frankly. Me, I'm big on choices, safety valves, options. She isn't, I guess.</p>
<p>Again, thank you for putting so much thought, time and effort to respond to my concerns. As promised, I will update this thread in April. </p>
<p>And I will update it sooner if she changes her mind. I do have to wonder whether her outlook will change if she gets a rejection from her one EA school. . . .</p>
<p>"She said that if she could not be admitted into a school that thrills her"</p>
<p>This feels obvious, but she just needs to do a bit of research to find the other schools that thrill her. There will be many, if she'll just look!</p>
<p>Cindy....here's one thing to bring up.....she hasn't even visited College of Charleston yet, right? (please correct me if I am wrong). So, she might want to appease you and add one more safety option just in case so she is not attending a school by default but out of choice. </p>
<p>Another point I would make to your D is that she strongly prefers the reach schools, right? And if so, how will she be so happy at her safety.....(though this IS possible of course).....but if she cares as much as she seems to about going to a very selective university, it makes sense that she has MATCH schools so that she doesn't settle for her safety necessarily. On the one hand, she can't fathom not going to the ideal schools in her mind that thrill her, and on the other, she is willing to settle for the safety. If she hedges her bets, she can have matches that are more selective (perhaps even more appealing) than her safety, as options.</p>
<p>Does her counselor not suggest matches?</p>
<p>By the way, in this competitive admissions era, and particularly for those striving for some very selective colleges, having just seven schools is on the low side. My kids had 8. Many students do better having 8-10.</p>
<p>Yes, Cindy, this is a long thread. Posters are just trying to give you feedback on how they feel their comments and suggestions have been received. What it feels like to many of us, from this side, is oftentimes dismissive and frequently negative. For example, there was no need, IMO, to take a "swipe" (as you say) at the CTCL book. It offended Calmom and others. For example, rodney's post (# 269) was a positive support of the effort posters have put in to trying to help you. If you have been positive, appreciative, thankful, etc, I must have missed those posts. What we are trying to tell you is that we feel that you tend to reject or punt many if not most of the suggestions with curt oneliners as (and I am making these up) "that one's got bad restaurants" or "that one's not fun enough", ( assumption being you are paraphrasing your dau but are still being equally negative) etc -- Several of us have tried to tell you over and over that your tone often seems as negative and dismissive as your daughter's probably is (Calmom was just the bluntest of those of us who tried to give that feedback). Please try to understand why we are frustrated or annoyed. </p>
<p>All we are saying is you should more often thank people (again and again if necessary) for their effort, even if their suggestions are not helpful. If all people see is the rejection of their ideas, they will stop wasting their time and energy trying to help you. </p>
<p>Sooze has, IMO, shown an infinite amount of patience, still trying to guess at score ranges and trying to make sugestions accordingly (with no other info). To answer her last hypothesis-- you posted that "Her ACT puts her in the low end of the middle 50% of all the top schools". Can't tell if this means the low 50% of her top school choices or all top schools choices (its vague) but to help Sooze out here, for arguments sake, I am gonna guess, looking at the mid 50% range of Brown, NW'ern, G'Town, W&M and also tops schools like Harvard, Yale, etc (for comparison) that your daus ACT was maybe 30-31. That puts her SAT equivalent at around maybe 1360-ish. If thats even close, I think that puts schools like CMC, Vassar, etc on the high match-reach level, and if all you need is a few more safeties, no point in wasting your time with them at this late date.</p>
<p>Oh, and by the way.. you are welcome.</p>
<p>Sounds to me like OP's dau is done. She has made her bed and has chosen to lie in it. The desire to add more schools to the list was moms, not daus, and dau seems pretty closed to the idea of looking at any more. She's chosen UMD and COC as her "safeties" (tho sounds like some are saying UMD is a match) and shes done. She could add UMD- Baltimore Cty as a safety, but doesnt sound like she's willing to. If she has a list of 7, shes done. <em>If</em> her list is well thought out, with all the unknown factors we dont have, then 7 is ok. My kids' school recommends 6-8. Many apply to less (even in this climate). My older one applied to 2, and younger one (last year) to 4. Didnt Carolyn post, many moons ago, that the average # of schools applied to across all college applicants each year (taking into consideration ED, non traditional students and auto- admits to local schools) was only around 2 or 3??</p>
<p>Jym, I think your boys got into their schools either ED or EA and so that may have kept them from applying to more. Each case is different. But for those seeking highly selective universities (which OP's D does have on the list), and for those willing to have a well balanced list of reaches, matches, and safeties, 8-10 schools are usually necessary to yield some options in spring. </p>
<p>I don't know the OP's D's profile. I gave her the results of a client of mine from four years ago from the same area as OP resides who did a full IB program, had good ECs, good grades and likely a similar test score. She got many waitlists. Got into no reaches, one match, and got into all safeties. She did get off the waitlist of one of her matches, Bucknell. She had more than seven schools. Schools that interested her overlapped OP's D's list.</p>
<p>Also, the OP mentioned that her D's essays were less than stellar in the mom's opinion. At very competitive schools, the essays matter. Let me tell ya, I see a LOT of essays for applications in my line of work. In fact, I need to stop volunteering so much time on this thread and others to get back to those who are paying me, LOL. But, I help students on MULTIPLE DRAFTS of MULTIPLE essays for their many applications. Hours upon hours go into this per kid. Even then, they don't all get admitted. But had they submitted their original drafts done on their own, in many cases, their outcomes would have been worse. So, already OP says the essays were so so. If she thinks they are so so, I bet I surely will think so. It is hard enough for my clients to get in after reworking umpteen essays many times over with me.</p>
<p>Another observation I have made is that the OP's D hasn't articulated real specific reasons why she wants to attend each school (I only know what mom posted but her reasons were very vague, such as "cool"...."friend goes there and likes it"). Each of my clients is writing very very very specific Why X College statements. The OP's D, if she has such essay prompts, may not be showing enough specific interest in the school and that is not going to look as good against candidates who have expressed VERY specific interest in that particular school.</p>
<p>I assume that Georgetown is the EA school. If you haven't already looked, the mid SAT range of accepted students in the EA round is a little higher than in the RD round. The EA acceptance rate is very slightly under their RD rate. In other words, the odds are not higher in the EA round at this particular university. Also, 90% of those accepted are in the top 10-15% of their HS class. 83% of those accepted are in the top 5%. I don't know where your D falls in her class but this is a guideline that should be examined. Test scores are not nearly enough to go by. If your D is in the top 5%, she likely has a chance there. If not, and her SATs are on the lower end for Georgetown, and she hasn't taken the most rigorous courses available, or has no outstanding achievements in ECs, her chances will be quite slim. Since Georgetown's admit rate is 20%, that alone makes it very chancy. It is chancy if you fall squarely in the stat range in terms of GPA, rigor of courses, class rank/percentile, and test scores. It is FAR more chancier if you don't fall squarely in those sets of benchmarks.</p>