Daughter Hates Her Matches And Safeties

Parents Forum
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<p>Older s got in ED.. younger s got in well-- sorta rolling.. sorta EA... not really sure of their term. If older s hadnt gotten into his EA school, he only had 2 additional apps that he planned to submit. His safety was the local flagship tech school, and like the OPs daughter (who is comparing everything to UMD) he compared everything to this flagship tech school. A school had to be worth it (financially and academically) to be a better choice/fit for him to apply compared to the tech school-- otherwise he'd choose to go to the tech school (which also notified him early, so we knew he was in-- OP's dau doesn't have an admission under her belt yet, so this is a slightly different circumstance).</p>

<p>Younger s only had one other school he planned to apply to if he didnt get into his safety early. If he handnt gotten into the safety I'd probably have browbeaten him to apply to more, as his list was topheavy too, and he adamently REFUSED to apply to our local flagship U or Tech schools. I think his counselors at school would have insisted as well. OP can either INSIST dau pick one more safety or chill and let the chips fall where they may. Sounds like she might end up at COC (which as you stated, she's never laid eyeballs on). Hope she likes it. My s visited it, along with a special tour of the Honors program, and HATED it. Refused to apply.</p>

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<p>cindysphinx</p>

<p>As a long-time lurker and recent CC joiner I wanted to thank you for starting this thread. My son is just a h.s. soph but he may be in the same position as your daughter one day soon. I have learned a lot from your thread. I also wanted to say that I think the criticism directed toward you is unfair. Some people have overreacted to things that you've said and others have accused you of not being thankful enough. I don't think you deserve any of the criticism, and I thank you for bringing up this subject that affects many posters.</p>

<p>soozievt, with all due respect to you, you could have maybe given a link to one of the many prior posts you've made about your daughters college acceptances. You tend to be a bit repetitious and sometimes its hard to wade through your long posts. Also, it seems a bit ridiculous to say that your kids did not know the rankings of their schools or take prestige into account when making their final choices. After all, their mother is a college counselor.</p>

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<p>"it seems a bit ridiculous to say that your kids did not know"</p>

<p>She didn't say that Mom didn't know! It's to her credit that she didn't influence her kids with that superfluous and irrelevant info!</p>

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<p>One thought for those who are being critical.</p>

<p>On the one hand, you are (justifiably) irked that you lack full information about the situation. That has gotta be frustrating.</p>

<p>On the other hand, you are (not justifiabily, IMHO) angry that some of your recommendations that are based on incomplete information are not being taken on board (or more accurately that the school actually <em>was</em> considered and found not suitable for whatever reason). </p>

<p>See the problem?</p>

<p>I mean, some are acting as though there is something wrong with a child or parent rejecting a worthy school. And taking it one step farther to say that this means that the mother is a beast. What's up with that?</p>

<p>Let's take a deep breath and appreciate what we have here.</p>

<p>Really, you have all done great. You have built an amazing thread that has helped me and has apparently helped others. You did that. I didn't do that. Isn't that reward enough?</p>

<p>We've come quite a long way from an OP of "My daughter hates her safeties and matches, so I think I'll encourage her to apply to more reaches." We are now at a place where D holds no illusions about her chances about her favorite schools, and where she cannot be heard to whine or complain should she winds up with no choices beyond UMD or Charleston.</p>

<p>I couldn't have done it without you.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
it seems a bit ridiculous to say that your kids did not know the rankings of their schools or take prestige into account when making their final choices. After all, their mother is a college counselor.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>purpleflurp, just so you know, neither of my children have EVER seen the USNews College Rankings. Neither were ever interested. I hadn't ever viewed them myself until I read about their emphasis on College Confidential when I found this site in 2002 when my oldest was entering her Jr. year of high school. I do not read college rankings myself. I could not tell you where my kids' undergraduate schools ranked. I have only viewed the college rankings a couple of times in the past seven years. I am not keen on rankings of undergrad schools and don't pay attention to them much. So, I can tell you that my kids are not aware of these (where we live, NOBODY discusses college rankings like they do on CC), and did not use rankings when coming up with their college lists. </p>

<p>As far as taking prestige into account, my kids did not have that as a selection criteria. However, both are very good students and did want selective challenging learning environments. But these were not chosen by rank. As I relayed here (since you say you have read my posts), D1 narrowed her acceptances down and threw out an acceptance to Penn and considered Smith and Tufts over it. So much for prestige and rankings. I guess that is a foreign concept to some CCers. My second child applied to specialized degree programs. There are NO RANKINGS for those. She applied to BFA in Musical Theater programs. In fact, some of the most regarded ones are located in less selective colleges and universities. So, no ranking even exists for what she applied for. So much for rankings.</p>

<p>By the way, our kids picked their own college lists and we had NO influence on those choices. They were allowed to apply where they wanted and we gave no opinion on their choices. We did not find schools for them either. We listened to their choices and rationale and that was it.</p>

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<p>Good point, vossron. </p>

<p>Purpleflurp. welcome to CC. Perhaps if you had put as much time and energy into trying to help the OP you would understand how and why many of us feel frustrated and unappreciated. One poster best described it as a ping pong match. Many posters have started "help me find safety schools" threads (including the OP elsewhere on cc) and they can be helpful to many. I hope the OP and her dau can try to put a positive spin on this process. Would much prefer to hear what one does want rather than what they do not. But thats just me.</p>

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<p>I can't speak for others-- but for me-- I don't care what the behind the scenes issues are-- as I said earlier-- I got weary of the constant negative tone-- the title of the thread is negative, many of the responses from the OP were negative--even when she responded positively it began with "ugh ugh ugh". To me, that's negative (but admittedly I am now hypersensitized to it in this thread). The illusiveness and lack of information with which to make reasoned recommendataions was, IMO just salt in the wound. Not angry at all, just disappointed, frustrated, annoyed, unappreciated (trying to come up with as many negatives as possible:) )</p>

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<p>This post is for Soozievt, especially, as this is your field. I am probably not telling you anything you don't know, but here we go anyway.</p>

<p>Someone a few posts up said their son's approach was [paraphrase] "I will only apply to schools that thrill me more than [fill in blank]." That is what D is doing, essentially. There are risks to that approach, clearly. So I get what you are saying. </p>

<p>To help you understand part of what is influencing me, however, I will need to tell you a little story.</p>

<p>I went to a cocktail party this summer. It was hosted by a family we know. Oldest son is about to graduate from Yale. I know he was admitted to Oberlin as well (big music talent, big brain). Nice kid; always a pleasure. He did not attend the party.</p>

<p>He has two younger siblings. I spent a lot of time talking to the middle son, who I had never met before then. About the only thing I know is he is <em>not</em> a big music talent. He is a junior at Fairfield, IIRC, in Connecticut (?). I asked him how he liked it. He said he liked it. He told me about the things that interest him there (art history) and how he fell into that. He said he wants a career working in a museum or auction house. He impressed me so much. He seemed like a balanced, sane kid and had many good things to say about his school.</p>

<p>He then asked what D is thinking. This was in the summer, so we had no test scores to go on and hadn't done many visits or anything. And he said something very surprising to me. He said if he could go back and re-do the application process, he would apply to Yale. And several other highly selective schools. He said that he did not apply to any of those dream schools, believing that he would not be admitted. He said his counselors and all the experts said it would never happen. He said he has this nagging feeling that he sold himself short, that getting a rejection would have been better than wondering whether he missed out on something. His advice to us was different from what many here at CC say: "Don't sell yourself short; go for it."</p>

<p>So.</p>

<p>Ideally, D would apply to more matches and more safeties. On account of how that would be <em>sane.</em> But we are left in a spot where, if nothing else, she is not selling herself short. And we are left in a spot where she will probably attend UMD next fall. Either way, she will not have any regrets, and I seriously doubt she will be racked with regret that she didn't spend a bit more time (or talking herself into) about DePaul, U of Richmond or Tulane. </p>

<p>So you know. Let's cut her a break. She rejected a whole lot of lofty schools (Stanford, Duke, Penn, Yale) for the precise reasons she is rejecting DePaul, U of Richmond and Tulane: They do not thrill her.</p>

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<p>IMHO this thread is instructive not just about match and safety schools but also about forum etiquette- how to ask questions, how to respond to them and how to thank people who help you out. </p>

<p>This thread is a good example of how people here are willing and able to put in a lot of thought and effort to help a total stranger during a difficult time and all they want in return is a little politeness and sensitivity.</p>

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<p>I think folks are investing a little too much emotional energy into this one thread. If you want to continue to help the OP's kid, stick around and keep posting. If for whatever reason you find the thread or the posts by the OP unsatisfactory, stop posting or reading and move on. There are dozens of other parents and especially kids on CC who are asking questions and need help.</p>

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<p>Jym, just so we're clear:</p>

<p>"Ugh, ugh, ugh" was not meant to be an insult to anyone here.</p>

<p>It was meant to communicate the frustration of trying to get a teen to do the sensible thing only to find yourself criticized for not trying to get a teen to do the sensible thing.</p>

<p>It seemed a better way to explain myself than vomiting on my computer screen. :)</p>

<p>Could I suggest that perhaps <em>you</em> are focused on the negative and have had some trouble appreciating the positive ways in which this thread and my own situation have moved forward?</p>

<p>College counselor? Check.</p>

<p>Research into a ton of additional schools? Check.</p>

<p>New discussions and recommendations to D? Check.</p>

<p>See. It's all good. Just because the end result is not what many have recommended (applications to additional schools) does not mean this thread has been negative.</p>

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<p>With all due respect, Cindy, the negativity is not on my part. The frustration I'll own, the negativity seems to belong squarely to you and your dau. To your credit, however, whether purposely or not, I do see you reframing things in a positive light now, which is pleasant, and all we are suggesting is that you model that for your dau. Her focus on what causes her to reject a school is not healthy, IMO. If you plan to make her find one more school to add to her safety, tell her you ONLY want to hear good things about the school she finds. You can help her reframe her thinking. Don't accidentally allow or encourage her to focus on the negative.</p>

<p>As for the person who said their kid compared each school to the the flagship school that met financial/academic goals, that was me. the difference between my s and your dau is that he was using this strategy when he was ALREADY ADMITTED to that school. It was a safety and he was in. So he had the luxury of using that strategy. Your dau is in a slightly different situation. Hopefully she'll have lots of choices and can use her "reasons to reject schools" approach when she has several admits to choose from. Good luck.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
IMHO this thread is instructive not just about match and safety schools but also about forum etiquette- how to ask questions, how to respond to them and how to thank people who help you out. </p>

<p>This thread is a good example of how people here are willing and able to put in a lot of thought and effort to help a total stranger during a difficult time and all they want in return is a little politeness and sensitivity.

[/quote]
Well said, VP!! Thank you</p>

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<p>BTW, I totally agree with the sentiment expressed in post#288 of "don't sell yourself short". That is why I said in my first post on this thread that the surest way to not get into a school is to not apply to it. </p>

<p>I personally would much rather attend a match or safety school after getting rejections from 10 'dream' schools than from only 4 of them. Assuming, of course, that my qualifications did put me within striking distance of those dream schools in the first place. That is probably why it is so important to know if a school is merely a 'reach' or truly an 'out of reach'.</p>

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<p>cindy, </p>

<p>I know a lot of people are participating on this thread. But in your post #288 to me...I just want to clarify that I am NOT one of the people who say NOT to apply to reach schools or that they will never happen!! Gee, I hope you did not come away with that idea at all (but it seems you may have?). I am ALL for reaches.....realistic reaches that have a remote chance of happening, as your D's reaches likely are (though I can't be sure as I have too little to go on). Everyone should have reach schools! I am not into what I call FAR REACHES where a student has zero chance of being admitted (I have had many students with very low stats....example: SATs CR/M combined of 900-1000, class rank in the lower 50%tile, GPA of 3.0 with NO Honors or AP classes even though they are offered, no significant achievements, etc. ....who want Yale, UCLA, Penn....etc......those would be FAR REACHES and will NOT happen). But I am into reaches where a student's profile HAS been accepted to that college. If you have determined that your D's profile does get admitted to Northwestern, William and Mary, Brown, and Georgetown, she should definitely try to get in as her reach schools! </p>

<p>But I believe every kid should also have match schools and safety schools, no matter how stellar of a student. And if these schools do not thrill your D enough, I feel there is a problem. I feel she doesn't know them well enough or she is poo pooing them over their not being perfect in each way. Not every school will match up 100% with what she wants. And she hasn't even visited. She just has to like some things about it enough to apply and then see what options she is handed.</p>

<p>It seems to me that on the one hand, she wants a prestigious selective school that "thrills" her (though frankly, even some of those on her list she hasn't even visited), and isn't willing to settle for schools that are beneath her or don't thrill her but by the same token, she may end up at College of Charleston (likely quite a bit below her stat level) or UMD (local and way bigger than she wants) and that seems silly to me because she is picky on the one hand (has a right to be of course) but then is willing to settle for these two schools that I don't think thrill her. So, why not add schools in the middle that thrill her a "little"? </p>

<p>I realize you are dealing with a teenager. I realize you see wisdom in what we are suggesting (and you did come to the forum to get more matches and safeties I think as you saw a need there). But I don't see why you can't insist that she explore some schools (clearly I suggested many as did others and I don't believe your D has truly explored EACH of those in depth and is knocking them out off the bat...may not know the schools, whatever), and add two matches and two safeties that she likes SOMEWHAT. That leaves options for spring....it can't hurt. I'd have her list information she has learned about each school and pros/cons. Without that kind of note taking, I would not be convinced of any reason to knock a school off other than by its "name". She should be doing that for ALL of her schools, not just any additional ones. When my students present me with a tentative list of schools, they must prepare a spreadsheet with notes in different categories and pros/cons, etc. If they can't do that, it is hard to discuss the schools with any meaning and the schools are just names. And honestly, if your D is doing GOOD apps, her apps should have statements that are very specific as to why she wants those particular schools. If she cannot articulate that, then she doesn't know those schools (or additional ones we are suggesting that she has not yet visited or looked into) that well. You gave her reasons for each school on her list and they were extremely vague reasons. I hope the statements she is sending to colleges are more specific. Regardless, she should have to be able to tell you why she doesn't want a certain school or why she wants other ones before dismissing them. That's just my opinion. I have seen many fine suggestions of schools on this thread and I can't imagine your D has looked into them all. </p>

<p>I know your D is a teen. But my D's were realistic. Your D needs some of that and you may have to be more of an influence in that way if she isn't on her own. You may have to tell her that it is a big decision to pick a place for four years and she needs to know the schools very well in order for them to be ON the list or have reasons for dismissing them (beyond "I know a kid who goes there that likes it" or "I heard it is cool" or "I think it will be too blond."). Explain how if a school matches five of her criteria (not sure I know her criteria) but doesn't match two of her criteria, it is enough to at least apply. She is not committing to attend. Then, at least she may have options in spring and be glad for it, even if she doesn't get this...YOU do. </p>

<p>As far as the boy who went to Fairfield....there is a HUGE difference in selectivity between Fairfield and Yale. Was he remotely in the ballpark for Yale? If he had been, he should have given it a shot. If he wasn't, I see no point in applying to schools that are FAR FAR out of reach for a candidate. With a school like Yale, it is hard enough to get in IF you HAVE the stats and profile, given the very low admit rate. If you are not even close, you won't get in. So, reaches are GREAT. FAR REACHES that are impossible make no sense. I will have to assume that your D's reaches are reaches within her grasp. If so, I SUPPORT that she applied to them. I never said to reach low. I believe in reaching HIGH. I also believe in well balanced college lists for ALL candidates, even top candidates. I do not know if your D is a "top candidate" or not (you have chosen to not share elements of her profile). My kid had a top profile, No schools were beneath her. She wanted the more selective schools, but she was realistic about the odds (due to low admit rates, not her qualifications) and so she put in at a range of schools. I believe every student needs to do that. Hopefully the counselors whom you are paying, are advising your D of this. Reaching high is GOOD. Being REALISTIC about the odds is also important. Thus build a balanced list accordingly. That's my view.</p>

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<p>WOW! Twenty pages of posts in mere minutes.</p>

<p>Cindy, it's November. Of course your daughter hates all the colleges she's applying to. That's because she hates the entire application process at this point, and so do all her friends. She hates the test taking, the fact that her teachers are all talking about how important all of this is, and so are you.</p>

<p>It would be great if your daughter could identify one "okay" school near you that has rolling admissions or EA. There are some nice public schools in Virginia and Maryland. My nephew's daughter goes to VCU and LOVES it, for example. And a friend's daughter is at St Mary's (in Maryland) and loves that. </p>

<p>A match/safety is a school that your daughter can get into and likes something about (even if it's that it has a great year abroad program and she'd only have to be there her freshman year to participate).</p>

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<p>
[quote]
With all due respect, Cindy, the negativity is not on my part. The frustration I'll own, the negativity seems to belong squarely to you and your dau. To your credit, however, whether purposely or not, I do see you reframing things in a positive light now, which is pleasant, and all we are suggesting is that you model that for your dau. **Her focus on what causes her to reject a school is not healthy, IMO. **If you plan to make her find one more school to add to her safety, tell her you ONLY want to hear good things about the school she finds. You can help her reframe her thinking. Don't accidentally allow or encourage her to focus on the negative.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Jym (or perhaps I should address "The Ghost Of Jym"),</p>

<p>I would guess that 50 schools have been mentioned in response to this thread, all with good reason and heartfelt support. What am I supposed to do with that?</p>

<p>There are only three possibilities:</p>

<p>Ignore the suggestion, accept the suggestion, reject the suggestion. We have rejected (for the moment) 47 of the 50 specific suggestions. I have accepted three (I was prepared to find a few more, but subsequent conversation with D suggests this probably be futile), which happens to dovetail nicely with the number I think would be reasonable additions to D's list. I personally have accepted other "process" suggestions (like ditching the lottery ticket approach, having a counselor). You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but I think I've done a fair job of expanding our universe here.</p>

<p>I also disagree with the bit in bold. Rejection is, almost by definition, a negative thing. You reject something because, on balance, you find its qualities to be not what you want, which usually means you find the negative qualities to outweigh the positive ones. You accept something because, on balance, the positives outweigh the negatives. One cannot engage in that balancing without thinking about the negatives.</p>

<p>Sending D to her room and telling her to come back with some new schools <em>and</em> telling her that she may only tell me positive things about the schools she finds? I know what the answer to that mandate would be: "No."</p>

<p>
[quote]
As for the person who said their kid compared each school to the the flagship school that met financial/academic goals, that was me. the difference between my s and your dau is that he was using this strategy when he was ALREADY ADMITTED to that school. It was a safety and he was in. So he had the luxury of using that strategy. Your dau is in a slightly different situation. Hopefully she'll have lots of choices and can use her "reasons to reject schools" approach when she has several admits to choose from. Good luck.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Your S is smarter than my D about this process. So stipulated.</p>

<p>I think it is fair to say that my D will never be able to employ the successful strategy your son employed. There isn't going to be any decision-making, any weighing of schools, any evaluating of positives and negatives, in April. She will either be into a selective school, or she will be going to whatever school took her in the end.</p>

<p>It's not what I would do, but hey, it's not my life . . . .</p>

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<p>Cindy...I'm saying something different. I am not saying that negative comments about a school should not be allowed. I'm saying she should not put a school ON the list unless she can articulate very specific reasons why she wants to go. Likewise, she should not dismiss the suggested schools unless she can find many specific reasons why they don't match up. I can't tell if your D is doing that for all the great suggestions that have been made. Does she have a pro/con list for many schools? In depth notes on those schools? Otherwise, they are just names and "reputation". Does she have a list of selection criteria that is specific? Then for each school, she should find how many ways the school matches that criteria. If it matches some, but not all, it may be worth putting an app in. She isn't committing to attend. She is increasing her options come spring. Since she has yet to visit some schools that are even ON her list, let alone the suggested schools, she doesn't yet know if they thrill her or not. She doesn't know enough to say. That's why I would have her articulate notes on each school as to how it meets or doesn't meet her criteria and pros/cons about it. Sometimes when that is written down, it becomes a lot clearer. And if you are gonna spend all this money to send her, she should look into each school in depth anyway. And if she is going to get into selective schools, she need to articulate TO the schools on the apps, very specific reasons she wants to attend that differ from school to school. I would also review the point that if a school doesn't match up in one facet, sometimes you give in one area to get in another. A school may have less than her ideal location, for example, but matches lots of other things she is looking for in a college. Then it is worth putting on the list. She doesn't have to attend. She'll be glad to have options in spring. Then she can be as picky as she would like with the cards she is hopefully dealt.</p>

<p>She's just a teen. She may need this advice from you that I just described (that is if you subscribe to it yourself). It is also hard sometimes between a parent and a teen as the teen doesn't want your advice cause you are the parent. But the college counselor you are paying should be sharing this type of advice, in my opinion.</p>

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<p>Sooziet, thank you for that!</p>

<p>Everything you wrote is totally reasonable. I have one quibble.</p>

<p>There seems to be an undercurrent of "you should make her do this and that." It's the "make" that is the problem. I can suggest, I can explain. I have done that. I can "help," by narrowing the field and not presenting all 50 schools suggested on this thread but by presenting three good possibilities. Bottom line: There are times you know your child is headed over a cliff and you pull out every tool in the box to stop them. This isn't one of those times. She is either making a mistake, or she isn't. The consequences of making a mistake are well known to her and aren't all that severe. She might like the place she winds up, and if not she can transfer or skip college for a year. So I will have to suck it up and leave it be, instead focusing on helping her get her apps as good as they can be.</p>

<p>I will tell you a little story from today. D likes psychology and one of her recs is from her psychology teacher. I wrote the teacher and asked if she had any ideas on colleges with good psych departments, figuring this might open up a hook and might interest D in a new match or safety. She wrote me back today saying she'd think on it more but that she had one suggestion: Berkeley.</p>

<p>At which point I had to restrain myself from pulling my hair out in chunks!! :)</p>

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<p>Now I am a ghost?? Whats up with that?? You got me on that one...</p>

<p>You dont have to accept/reject or ignore suggestions (though I'd recommend you at least look into them before punting). My suggestion was what Vicariousparent so eloquently stated-- that you thank people for their suggestions. If you put them in file 13, that your business. But to reject them without so much as a "thanks for your effort" is just not very nice.</p>

<p>I dont think anyone is saying any student should try to grab for the golden ring. That attitude is a healthy one. One should have goals, have drive. I just feel like we are at a fancy ladies dress shop, people are bringing out dresses one at a time for your approval, and you are waiving them off with little consideration. At least consider saying "thats pretty-- thanks for showing it to me".</p>