Daughter Hates Her Matches And Safeties

Parents Forum
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<p>On post 298,</p>

<p>Sooziet, all of that sounds like wonderful process. It would be a very sane and mature way to make a decision, no?</p>

<p>I think part of what is going on here is that D puts a lot of stock into what she hears from people she trusts. That is one of her main research mechanisms. That is how you can wind up with "Northwestern" on the list, even though she hasn't visited. That is how you can see this curious comfort level with Charleston.</p>

<p>:shrug:</p>

<p>What can you do? Who is to say her way is wrong and a more fact-driven approach would be right for her? I mean, we are talking about a kid who doesn't even know what she wants to major in or do for a living. The best she has been able to do is decide there are certain things she <em>doesn't</em> want in a major or career.</p>

<p>Uh oh. She knows she doesn't want science or math as a career or major. There I go with the negativity again! :)</p>

<p>Cindy -- who had no idea that decision-making through the process of elimination was held in such disrepute</p>

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<p>cindy, I realize you face a problem with your D about this. I'm just saying that you could tell her that she needs a balanced list. She chooses the schools. If you really want, you can hand her the long list I posted today on this thread from either my own research or the consolidating of other posts I went through to find the schools. I'd ask her to give specific reasons why she likes it or not. To dismiss it out of hand is just not good enough. I'd say that even about the schools that are currently ON her list. She needs to have REASONS that are specific. Then, you can discuss them, though the decisions are hers to make as to WHERE to apply but your guideline is that she has 40% reaches, 40% matches, 20% safeties on the list. That is not really making her do anything that stringent but is the advice her counselor also should be giving. </p>

<p>And yes, the suggestion of Berkeley would have made me laugh or cry too at this point.</p>

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<p>Cindy, with regard to #131 since we cross posted....
I think your D is truly picking schools by reputation and word of mouth. That is a good starting point but not enough. And as I already have mentioned, even if I put aside that her college selection should have some solid reasons for its own sake.....she MUST have that in order to articulate to colleges why she wishes to attend. If you find she can't articulate that to you, how is she doing that on her apps? These schools are quite selective. The apps are important. I know Northwestern and Brown as I have students applying to these and they require Why X College statements. I can't tell your D's reasons for applying. If you could say what those were specifically, it would also help gear the college suggestions for her more appropriately.</p>

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<p>Soozievt,</p>

<p>We completed the one app to Georgetown already and had to deal with the dreaded "Why Georgetown?" question. This was the hardest one for her to answer. The reason, of course, is that she wants to go to Georgetown because it is in a cool area, it has cool sports, it is the right size, many of the classes sounded fascinating, she thought it was pretty, she thinks she could get a job upon graduation, she has actually heard of it before this process. </p>

<p>Uh, none of that makes for a very good essay, eh?</p>

<p>So we combed the curriculum and the web site. She thought about it. She finally nailed it down, in the process finding this first-year program where you take your humanities in a big lump instead of one by one. She liked that. So she wrote about that.</p>

<p>Will it work? Will it impress the AO? Is it even a good answer? I don't know. But it is a truthful one, so it will have to do.</p>

<p>I assume she will go through the same soul-searching and web site-searching process on the other apps too.</p>

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<p>Cindy-
Sooze is giving you very sage advice-- If you dau digs a little deeper she can find which schools have strong psychology programs, which will have a boatload of core courses that she doesnt want (that will have lots of science and math) and which will have more flexibilty in her course selection. that said, if she wants to be a psych major (psych? neuroscience? developmental?? social??) she will have to take math and science courses, obviously. And statistics. There are several excellent psychology undergrad and grad programs. I have degrees from 2 of them :) (hence my honing in on the negativity in the posts and encouragement to reframe your thinking in a positive way to model it for your daughter...)</p>

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<p>Sorry- I am off to a meeting so have only scanned some posts-- but I did want to clarify something. I didnt say your dau couldn't think about the reasons to reject schools-- that is the problem-- she sounds focused moreso on the reasons to reject rather than to accept or to look further. As sooze pointed out, once she looks past the reputation of the schools as offered by her friends, she may find things that help her to form her own opinion. I didnt say she couldnt think about the reasons to reject a school-- I just suggested that you should tell her you dont want to hear them. You want to hear what she LIKES about a school. that will help her reshape her thinking. You dont want her to be like the " Debbie Downer" character from Saturday Night Live - you want her to see the glass as half full, not half empty. You can help with that. If she likes psychology, tell her to read up on cognitive behavioral therapy. She (and you) might find it interesting, and helpful.</p>

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<p>Cindy, does your D have a friend whom you know to be approaching the issue a bit, er, differently, to whom your D might listen?</p>

<p>"CindyD, I'm guessing that you have about five match schools, like the rest of us do. What are yours?" :)</p>

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<p>Good suggestion, vossron.</p>

<p>By the way, Cindy, the answer to my suggestion that she look further into "which schools have strong psychology programs, which will have a boatload of core courses that she doesnt want (that will have lots of science and math) and which will have more flexibilty in her course selection. that said, if she wants to be a psych major (psych? neuroscience? developmental?? social??) " could be the topic of the "why XXXXXXX school essay.</p>

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<p>Cindy, your description of how your D went about the Why Georgetown essay is exactly what I mean. At first, your D had very general answers that you could say about almost any school or that any kid could say about Georgetown. And no, it would not have helped her application. It sounds like she dug into her exploration deeper. Good. But that's what I am saying needs to be done BEFORE she puts the schools on her list. There should be concrete reasons why each school made her list. This is a big decision. I'd insist on it. Likewise, with the many schools lots of us suggested here, I would ask her to add two matches and one more safety. She can pick. But before she says "no" to a school on that list, she needs to explore it enough to say I don't like X, Y, and Z about it. It does meet A and B of my criteria though. And then look for ones that meet MORE criteria of hers than less but she needs to realize that most schools won't meet EACH of her criteria. That's OK. she is ONLY applying, not attending. When spring rolls around, she can be pickier. Right now, I can't tell why your D picked these schools other than reputation. This is a big decision as to where to go to college. She needs to explore deeper so she is choosing as wisely as she can for herself. </p>

<p>Well, I have devoted way too much time to this thread and am now behind in the work I have to do with those who are paying me, LOL. So, I don't know that I have helped you, Cindy, but I hope someone who is reading has benefitted in some way.</p>

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<p>If your D is so stubborn about her college app list, perhaps the best thing to do is to let her do what she wants, and then let her learn from whatever results. Some people do learn best from experience. There are worse things than her having to spend another year at home.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
the best thing to do is to let her do what she wants, and then let her learn from whatever results

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I agree. After all, at some point SHE has to make the major decisions that effect her. Might as well be this one.</p>

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<p>Cindy, I think you've explained your thought process very well and I applaud your ability to let your daughter proceed and accept the consequences of her decisions. You are a good example to me.</p>

<p>I just want to clue you in on a dirty little secret of senior year... it ain't over even when it's over. I think it's Heron, the poster who has kept us in knots for a year about her daughter who was/is so ambivalent about her college choices. Then there are the rest of us who pick up the pieces from our kids when they either make a rash decision or a dumb decision or an unaffordable decision. Etc. If your daughter has a pattern of accepting the consequences of her choices with alacrity and good grace then you guys are fine- good show. If she has a pattern of second guessing and doubling back and passing the buck- then you're in for a stressful couple of months in April unless her dream schools come through for her (and of course I hope they do!)</p>

<p>Now this isn't the end of the world- certainly not, god forbid, like a kid being diagnosed with a terrible illness or whatever, so I'm aware that we need to maintain perspective. However-- the back and forth you engage in with your daughter now for sure is going to set you up with a pattern for how the two of you deal with each other for the next couple of years.</p>

<p>You seem OK with the dynamic- which is great. You've told her your opinion; you've gotten her outside, unbaised advice; she's made her own decisions which you've agreed to respect, and you'll all move on. However- it's worth making sure that she perceives this in the same way. I have a sister-in-law who unfortunately has gotten into a similar pattern with her daughter.... until the daughter claims after the fact, "Why didn't you insist on X" or "Why wouldn't you intervene when I needed help with Y" etc. So the adult thinks she's backing off appropriately, and the child (a young adult but for sure a child still psychologically) keeps waiting for mom to push the emergency button which she doesn't do, and then the kid blames the mom for whatever ^&*^ ensues.</p>

<p>So I respect your approach- it's her life, it's her college experience, she needs to drive the boat here so to speak- just make sure she's not secretly waiting for you to insist that she add Fordham (Catholic), Hampshire (isolated but plenty fun and cool), or Bryn Mawr (not isolated, not Catholic, but all female) to her list.</p>

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<p>There are some very wise posts above!! NSM and 07Dad make EXCELLENT points that the decisions are your D's to make, Cindy, and she has to live with her decisions and you have to step back at some point. You can guide her, of course; that's your job. But if you have to push and push and she is not responding, then live and let live and have her be prepared to live with the outcome. </p>

<p>But I also think Blossom above has written a wonderful consideration. If you advise your D and she opts to ignore that advice and goes about it as she sees fit, make sure to be very upfront that she owns these decisions and with that, the consequences of those decisions. Blossom mentions something that SOME kids WILL do which is to later say, "why didn't you insist I add more schools?" or something to that affect. So, offer your advice but tell her that she owns this process in the end but she also owns the outcome. Be real clear about that. </p>

<p>I would not MAKE my kid apply anywhere. I'd offer the guidance about the importance of a realistic balanced list to ensure options in the spring and let her pick the schools herself. If I have heard about a school, I could pass it on, but she makes all decisions. So, you could again explain the importance of having a couple matches and another safety, especially as she hasn't even visited her safety or some of her schools and that it just may create an easier situation in spring, just in case and how it can't hurt but only help. But if she is adamant against it, then don't push it. But explain she must live with the very realistic outcomes that are possible under the current scenario. Tell her you want her to make the decision herself but also to live with it. Not much more you can do. The kid needs to drive this process. The parents can only guide and facilitate, not run the show.</p>

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<p>Can I make a suggestion, Cindysphinx? This is a very serious one and I hope you give it consideration.
I do agree from what you describe, your dd is starting out "from the name of the school" as opposed to "what she wants her college to be like." And that's why - hey, there are some very appealing schools on that list; what's not to like about Brown or NU?</p>

<p>What if you tried this approach?
In my next post, I am going to give you a list of potential attributes that one might consider when looking at a school. (Some of them are written from our kids' standpoint of being in the Midwest and wanting Jewish life on a campus; you can easily adjust them to your needs). These are by no means all-encompassing and you or your dd may have other criteria in mind.</p>

<p>Anyway, create 6 piles for your daughter:
Absolutely must have
Would really like to have
Nice, but not critical
Don't care either way
Don't want, but could live with / deal with
Don't want at all</p>

<p>Got it? On to the next post.</p>

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<p>OK. Now, write each of the following ATTRIBUTES on an index card, one to a card. Again, feel free to customize as you see fit, but this is a comprehensive list of attributes that one might desire in a college experience -- both academic, campus-related, and intangible ("feel" of campus, prestige factor, etc.).</p>

<p>Have her take each index card and sort it into the piles I identified in the previous post. Don't say a thing; just let her do it, even if it takes an hour or so.</p>

<p>Hopefully, it will help her think about what she cares about and doesn't care about; and then, from there, you can have discussions based on her must haves and wants, starting from THAT standpoint, as opposed to "Brown? Do you like it? Georgetown? How does that sound? Tulane? What about that?"</p>

<p>Make it about the criteria, not the college. You may be surprised with what she truly wants, and what things she is neutral about. She may be, too.<br>
Good luck!</p>

<hr>

<p>Small size (under 5000 students)
Medium size (5000-15000)
Large size (15000+)
Lots of students just like me
Lots of diversity - not just students like me
In a rural area
In a suburban area
In / near a small city (like Indianapolis, Iowa City)
In / near a medium-sized city (like St. Louis, Minneapolis, Seattle)
In / near a big city (like Chicago, Boston, NY, LA, Phila, San Fran)
In / near a very unique city like New Orleans or Portland, Oregon
In a college town that is really geared towards students
Campus is small / easily walkable
Campus is large
Must live on-campus all 4 years
Can live off-campus after freshman year
Has really neat architecture
Has typical college dorms
Has dorms that are more high-rise / apartment style
Has a Greek system, but not very big
Has a big Greek system, most students are in it
Has no Greek system or a very small one
Has a big party scene
Has only a few students from my area
Has hardly anyone from my area going there
Student body is mostly wealthy
Student body is a mix of all income levels
Student body is preppy
Student body is less concerned with style / image
Student body is known for dressing well / being stylish
Student body is mostly from the suburbs
Student body is mostly white -- not a lot of diversity
Students have unique interests - not just cookie-cutter
Students have mainstream interests
Students are more on the serious, quiet side
There is a big drinking scene
Students love to party
Students are really dedicated to their studies
Students are very intellectual / like to think about things
Offers a really wide range of majors and classes
Students are mostly heading to grad school (business, law, medicine, etc.)
Students are mostly heading to work / corporate world after college
Students are relaxed, easygoing
Students are known for balancing work and play
Has a lot of athletes
Has students from all over the country
A lot of student diversity -- kids from other countries and different ethnicities
Kind of place where students feel really loyal to it
Kind of place where students keep to themselves
Has a lot of sports to watch (football, basketball, etc.)
Is a top sports school -- other people know their teams
Has a lot of school spirit
Has a lot of sports to play (intramurals)
Students typically don't care about sports
Has lots of things for students to do (like a student center, etc.)
Has a strong Jewish presence
Has a moderate Jewish presence
Has very few Jewish students -- will be unusual to be Jewish
Has opportunities for Jewish life (clubs, etc.)
In an area I want to eventually live in
Students who go here tend to stay in this area after graduating
Is well known -- most people will have heard of it
Is well known among people who know about colleges but average person may not have heard of it
Is ranked high nationally
Students are very competitive with each other
Students aren't competitive -- really help each other out
Is near other colleges so I can take classes / meet other kids from nearby colleges
Has mostly small classes
Has a mixture of small and large lecture classes
Has an involved faculty
Has a lot of opportunities to do research / interact / work for faculty
Campus is in a city / downtown environment -- all the activities of a city are steps away
Campus is in a neighborhood type environment
Campus is in a wooded / forest area
Campus is in a rural area but not wooded
Campus is in an area with a lot of natural beauty, waterfalls, etc
Campus is in a flat part of the country
Campus is in a hilly part of the country
Campus is on / near an ocean, lake or river
Campus is on / near mountains / skiing
Campus is very picturesque / beautiful
Campus has really old charming buildings
Campus has newer, more modern buildings
Weather has all four seasons (like Chicago or NY) -- will get snow
Weather is moderate all the time (like in Seattle or San Francisco)
Weather is warm / hot all the time (like LA or New Orleans or Florida)
The area / city is very progressive and liberal (like Seattle, Portland or Austin, Texas)
The area / city is very conservative (like parts of the south)
There are a lot of colleges in the immediate area (like Boston or Philadelphia)
Students tend to do everything on campus / rarely go off campus
Students can easily go off campus / into a town (like Evanston)
Students stay on campus on weekends
Students go out to nearby towns / cities on weekends
Students go home on weekends
The town / city right around the campus has a lot to do
Easy to go walking / hiking / camping / outdoor activities nearby
Close to home
Far from home
Really far from home :-)
Can drive there easily from home (within a 6 hour drive - like Minneapolis, Indianapolis, St. Louis)
Need to fly there (like the coasts)
Other students from my high school often choose this college
Specializes in what I want to study - and only that
Offers a lot of different options
Is a liberal arts school -- with general education requirements
Does not require me to take general education courses
Gives me chance to study abroad / overseas / do exchange programs
Requires me to study abroad / do exchange programs
Gives me chance to do internships
Will serve me well if I want to go to grad school, law school, med school, etc.
Has graduate programs as well
Campus is in a part of the country I have always been interested in
Has a lot of unique traditions special to that school
Really good programs in English / writing / journalism
Really good programs in history / political science / psychology
Really good programs in math
Really good programs in science
Really good programs in the arts (filmmaking, TV, radio, theater, etc.)
Really good programs in foreign languages
Really good programs in something else that interests me
Is in a very specific part of the country (write in what that is)</p>

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<p>I would also add, Cindysphinx, that if you came back and said what she really wants is such-and-such, she's neutral towards such-and-such, and these other things are deal-breakers, then CC folks could be more helpful in suggesting colleges that won't just get shot down. Because I think some people feel as though they've been guessing at the criteria.</p>

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<p>Now I know why I have been following this thread for the past two days......the above post is a "keeper"....thanks Pizzagirl!</p>

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<p>You're welcome - I wish folks like mini and tokenadult could see it, just because they might find the list useful in their work and might have some interesting additions to it.</p>

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<p>Cindysphinx, as a senior applying to college, I BEG you to follow Pizzagirl's strategy.</p>

<p>I did roughly the same thing with school software. I knew I wanted a research institution that was medium-sized, not rural, etc. I went through a very basic filtering system that gave me a huge list of schools - 30 or 40. I read about literally every single one of them in Fiske. I was, to some degree, negative here. If there were major problems, I would dismiss a school. But these were based on more subjective criteria. For example, I wanted a residential campus and a not-overwhelmingly liberal student body. I dismissed Columbia for both reasons, and many large LACs for the lack of intellectual diversity that I was seeking. But I still had concrete criteria, which also included the roles of sports and fraternities.</p>

<p>From there, I read about all the remaining ones in Barron's guide and focused on the POSITIVE. I picked out the ones that seemed most interesting to me, with environments and ambiances that felt right. College visits (I've only visited a couple of schools) really helped. </p>

<p>I would try following Pizzagirl's advice, and then reading through Fiske as I did once the preliminary list of colleges comes up. At least her rejections of schools will be well-founded there. Plus, if she finds one she likes, she isn't forced to attend Charleston, a safety-safety, because of a rejection from Georgetown, a reach-reach.</p>

<p>It's hard. It's still hard for me; I'm applying to top schools with excellent stats -- just like 10,000 other people (or more; I don't know how many HYPS-ish applicants are actually qualified). But I realize the necessity of having schools I want to attend. I could go to the local state university, but I would much rather go to a school I'm excited about. If your daughter is fired up about UMD/Charleston, great. But, and you know her better than I, so pardon me if this comes off as presumptuous or offensive, make sure she isn't playing you because she's convinced that she won't need to resort to her current safeties.</p>

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<p>Pizzagirl, you might finance a few college educations if you packaged and sold these cards!</p>