Daughter Hates Her Matches And Safeties

<p>OK, my oldest kid is a junior, so I have NO experience in this myself just yet, but I've been lurking/posting on cc for a while, and maybe it's time to employ this strategy I've read about on here:</p>

<p>I've heard many on cc say they apply to schools sight unseen and visit them AFTER they've got an acceptance in hand. Help her find a few more schools to apply to and don't let her worry about them being a perfect match just yet. Make her do it to humor you. Doesn't seem money is an issue, so what's another $60, $120, $180 to ensure she has some real options when decisions start coming in? Once she has a couple of acceptances to these currently "undesirable" schools and she's feeling some love from them, I'm guessing she'll be more open-minded about them, especially after receiving some rejections from her supposed dream schools. </p>

<p>Additionally, get the college counselor in your corner and have her insist to your dd that she needs to broaden the horizons a bit.</p>

<p>I'm sure your dd (and you!) are stressed to the max. If you've already visited 18 schools, I don't blame her for not wanting to keep looking. Just find some matches/safeties that look good on paper and apply.</p>

<p>My daughter's friends who are at Ohio University are enjoying it a great deal. Maybe it would pass your daughter's "fun/lots of school spirit" and "not too big" tests. (Go Bobcats!) :)

[quote]

42 residence halls housing 7825 students
340+ registered student organizations
<a href="That's%20about%20half%20of%2016,000%20or%20so%20undergrads%20living%20on%20campus.">/quote</a></p>

<p>I am quite fond of Brandeis, which would meet your daughter's "city" and "not too big" tests. My daughter's friends who go there like it but there is not a lot of school spirit there.</p>

<p>I love DePaul as a safety/match school and I think it meets all of your daughter's criteria but gets booted out by her resistance to all Catholic schools. My daughter's friends who go there say it is so much fun. We had a great visit there. It is in a great funky urban neighborhood, and there is good school spirit for basketball...</p>

<p>I do see what you are up against! I'm with YouDon'tSay on this one - how about sending out a few more apps and visit later if necessary? I believe that these three schools all have pretty easy admissions apps, for example.</p>

<p>I'm still unclear if Cold wind's 1300 numbers are real. If so, I'd have to agree with the poster who says she's in for a big fall. </p>

<p>My oldest had a counselor that approved an unrealistic list of schools. She meant well, but her information was a decade old. We were not as savvy then about college matters and DD applied to a very unrealistic list with 1 state school safety. Guess where she ended up? Not getting it right the first time caused agony for all until we got her transferred.</p>

<p>I would sit DD down as a family with common data sets on the table. Look at how many of Brown's 1300/1350/1400/1450 actually were accepted last year. When we did this with second and third children, the lists became reasonable.</p>

<p>From our big public high school not a single kid was admitted to Northwestern with SAT scores under 1300. Brown the cut off was 1350. I concur that American or GW might be worth a look. American is the right size (GW is twice as big) and it's in a residential part of the city so it really doesn't feel too urban.</p>

<p>cindysphinx, have you read this thread? (a collegeconfidential classic)
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/47867-we-re-picking-up-pieces-but-what-went-wrong.html?highlight=great+threads%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/47867-we-re-picking-up-pieces-but-what-went-wrong.html?highlight=great+threads&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>MidwestMom, I wasn't aware of that thread (geez, reading that thread is like driving by a 10-car pile-up, huh?), but it doesn't take much imagination to see how and why such a thing can happen. Which is why I'm worried that the current List Of Seven stands a significant chance of failure. Expanding the top would reduce the chance a little; expanding the bottom would reduce the chance a lot.</p>

<p>I think I am going to try something I rarely do but that works when I have done it in the past: I'm taking over! :)</p>

<p>Seriously, I will tell her that she <em>must</em> apply to three additional schools of her choosing. If she doesn't come up with three, I will. If it turns out to be a waste of time because she gets into a reach, she can lord it over me for life. She can tell her children about silly old grandma who <em>forced</em> her to apply to Villanova, and they can all have a good laugh at my expense.</p>

<p>OK, so what should those three schools be? </p>

<p>One should be Wake Forest (although that struck me as a high match last time I checked).</p>

<p>Two left. Hmmm. I think Villanova and University of Miami. I'd be mighty surprised if she didn't get into those.</p>

<p>What do you think?</p>

<p>I know it sounds insane that I would handle it this way, but time is growing short. The endless sessions at the kitchen table ("Please mom. Tell me some more schools to apply to! Ya gotta help me! This is killing me!" followed closely by "No way! I can't go there!") have got to end.</p>

<p>^^^ Would be a good idea to also link to the 'one year later' follow-up of that story- the kid ended up taking a gap year and going to MIT one year later, with financial aid. </p>

<p>Much better outcome IMHO than going to a suboptimal safety.</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/192395-no-acceptances-one-kid-s-story-year-later.html?highlight=safety%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/192395-no-acceptances-one-kid-s-story-year-later.html?highlight=safety&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<br>


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<p>Along with two repeats:
Swarthmore
Yale ( added at the last minute due to pressure from a friend there )</p>

<p>He decided to get new recommendations from his senior year teachers since they would be more recent. He wrote new essays and did the applications from scratch. Didn’t re-use anything. Put ample time into every question and let his personality show through more. He didn’t retake any SATs or SAT IIs. He did add new AP scores (even thought they’re not supposed to count) and had some new awards he had received at the end of his senior year.</p>

<p>Results:
Accepted at all the new schools . Every school offering merit aid awarded him a generous scholarship and he received need-based aid from the others. Brandeis awarded him a full-tuition music scholarship. Case was also generous. CM, MIT and Vassar awarded him need based aid.
The two repeat schools both turned him down, but by this time he was ready to move on and with all the good news he hardly noticed the rejections.>>></p>

<p>I believe that knowing you'll be the butt of family jokes at T'giving for years to come because you made your dd apply to State U is a small price to pay to make sure she's not hosting those T-giving dinners in your basement. :)</p>

<p>I read through the whole thread, and maybe I missed this: What does your daughter plan to study?</p>

<p>i'm a teenager, hopefully i can offer some help here w/your daughter</p>

<p>perhaps show her scholarships and some of the perks of being a higher student at a safety/match?? that really made me get excited about my schools! </p>

<p>also, i would push the staying in basement/getting a job option. </p>

<p>Lastly, if you are REALLY desperate, maybe suggest a college trip of her and her friends after she's been accepted? Tell her you won't let her go until she finds some safeties/matches that match her criteria. </p>

<p>Anyway, good luck! Hope it works out in April</p>

<p>Wake Forest is not very "safe" school as a safety/match, I don't think. Have known some very good students not get in there.</p>

<p>She plans a rigorous course of study in "I have no idea."</p>

<p>Seriously, she likes psychology very much. Just not enough to commit to it. :) If there were an undergrad school with an amazing psychology program, that might help. </p>

<p>We can rule out math, language and science as possible majors.</p>

<p>In response to Post #53: I suspect, but do not know, that the SAT scores were a bit below 1300/1600 as the OP confirmed on an old thread that another poster's guesstimate of 1300/1600 was about right. The problem in this thread is that the OP is not offering enough hard info. such as SAT scores, GPA, class rank, APs, etc. Even geography is a significant concern. If the OP & student live in the D.C. area, then they are aware of nearby universities & competition is much more intense for admission to selective Eastern schools than if the OP's student were from South Dakota or from DC & applying to schools in Texas, for example.</p>

<p>I would say that you should dig in your heels and INSIST that she apply to TWO true safeties. (A true safety is a school that she is 100% sure of being admitted to and your family can definitely afford). (Technically a person only needs ONE.... but the 2nd is backup in case you are mistaken about one of the schools). A substitute for a safety can be a school that has rolling admission or an EA program that will give her an answer before apps are due in the RD round -- once she's in, she's in. </p>

<p>Do not worry about whether a school is labeled a "reach" or a "match" -- in either category, it's a school that your daughter might not get into, so there's no point in trying to work up enthusiasm for, say, a school where she has a 3 out of 5 chance of being admitted as opposed to a school with a 1 out of 5 chance. (My daughter was accepted into most of her "reach" schools, waitlisted at schools she thought were "matches"). </p>

<p>And don't worry about the "love" if it isn't there. That's your daughter's problem, not yours. You are simply laying out the safety net. You can make it clear to your daughter that if she is rejected at every other college, the safety is where she will end up -- so it helps to choose wisely -- or even add more safeties, sight unseen, just to keep more options open. But the point is -- she'll have a choice.</p>

<p>Do NOT under any circumstances add more "reaches" to the mix simply on the hit-and-hope rationale. This is not a random process; you cannot depend on luck and you will not increase chances by buying more lottery tickets. Your daughter will do better to focus more effort in fashioning strong applications to the schools she does like than spreading herself thin. (My d. got into the "reach" schools where she put some extra effort into the application and into the short essay responses tailored to that school -- where she had a good picture of what she liked about the school, what she had to offer the school and what the school would do for her). </p>

<p>The problem with applying to more reaches is that you invite more disappointment. Will your daughter feel better about attending her safety if she has been rejected by 8 other schools than she will if she has merely been rejected by 3? Every single reach college should be one that she truly wants to attend, given the high likelihood of rejection.</p>

<p>Regarding her hard data . . . </p>

<p>I gave an inkling in the OP (she's at the low-ish end of the 50% middle for the very best schools). I don't want to get more specific. She recently took the ACT and did better than the SAT, which is why my hints about her scores in a prior post are no longer accurate.</p>

<p>Regarding tailoring to the specific school, I think that is excellent advice. She already applied EA to one reach school she adores. Honestly, I think she isn't going to get in. I didn't think her essays were up to scratch, although she did work very hard on the "Why do you want to come here?" essay. </p>

<p>She will have to do better on the next ones. The essays are close, but they ooze a certain feeling of exhaustion. As in "I could write a better essay if I could summon the strength to put my fingers on the keyboard just one more time."</p>

<p>She does know Georgetown is catholic, and isn't vilanova also?</p>

<p>I would suggest that she apply to BU, although it may be a bit larger than she would think ideal. Boston is hog heaven for students. Assuming that her SATs are as stated earlier in this thread, they would place her in the upper portion of the middle 50%.</p>

<p>She also might want to look at Elon. It's about the size she wants, it is not cold, and her stats would probably place her in the top 25%.</p>

<p>Op- my sympathies. It is really tough going by the end!</p>

<p>I am concerned that people who weren't around during the Andison days take away the wrong message from the 10-car pileup. The learning is not, "hey this kid didn't get in anywhere and then he took a gap year and got into some fantastic schools including some with merit money". That's true- but a bit of an overstatment. Andi's son was a tippy top candidate with a weak application strategy. People should not extrapolate from this that an above average candidate can replicate these results by taking a gap year and then a do-over. Even Andi's son did not get into the schoools which had already rejected him... which is sort of the way the system works. If they weren't buying what you were selling last year, 12 more months isn't going to fundamentally alter the outcome.</p>

<p>To the OP- I think your D has every right to feel burned out right now. My suggestion is that you all table the discussion of more schools until she has done her absolute best to complete the applications of the schools that are already on the table. Give them all her best shot. Then- say around December 5th when everything is in, you guys can kick into high gear to get a few more matches and at least one safety that she'd be enthusiastic about attending. Chances are that it'll just be a cut and paste job by then- as long as her college counselor commits to getting the paperwork done in time, and then you need to order up some more school reports, let the teachers writing the rec's know the extra schools, etc.</p>

<p>This way she does her absolute best right now to her "November favorites" and then shoots in a couple of more realistic applications to her "December favorites".</p>

<p>I think the phenomenon you describe of kids being unduly swayed by who else is applying is a very common one. The only solution is for the two of you to agree that:
1- you won't force her to go anywhere she's not enthusiastic about when she comes back from the preview weekend in April;</p>

<p>2-she won't reject schools based on who is applying but it's ok to reject them based on the kids she meets there who are actually attending;</p>

<p>3-both parties to agree that life is full of trade-offs. Some gorgeous campuses are in cruddy neighborhoods; some interesting and challenging schools are in boring cities or rural areas; many rigorous schools are in places where you just never want to study since there are so many exciting options of things to do outside the classroom. She will absolutely find a good trade-off for her if she's willing to keep her mind open.</p>

<p>4- You will continue to treat her like an adult as long as she behaves like one. If a grownup interviews for "the job of their dreams" and isn't invited back for a second interview, they don't get to decide that they'll sit home and watch All My Children for a couple of months. They try and figure out what they loved about the dream job, and then continue to explore opportunities which has some or many of those elements in it. At the end of the day, your D must realize in her heart that Brown and Northwestern also have elements that she'll probably dislike if/when she gets there- and that perhaps the less dreamy school, while missing some of the B/N charm, may well have none of the things she'd dislike.</p>

<p>Climbing College Hill in the snow is no fun.</p>

<p>Also want to point out that while a school with 5,000 students feels fundamentally different from one with 2,000, I defy you to feel the difference between one with 5,000 and 8,000. Especially if the difference is made up by large grad or professional schools, or by things like a school of music which have a campus in a different place in the same city.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Which will leave Univ of MD (our state school) as a match and Univ of Charleston as a safety.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The way things are going over at UMD, she had better have close to a 1400 (CR + M) on the SAT to consider it a match. SAT scores there are getting higher every year, and the admissions office places a heavy weight on those scores.</p>

<p>The standard one-step-down schools for Maryland kids who are concerned that they might not get into UMD are Virginia Tech and University of Delaware, both of which are easier to get into from out of state than UMD is from in state.</p>

<p>I've been following this thread and hardly know where to begin but I feel you have gotten excellent feedback by many members. </p>

<p>For one thing, it is hard to get too specific with you without knowing your D's profile (which goes WAY beyond her test scores....which we don't truly even know) in order to advise you about schools. There are her actual grades, the rigor of her chosen curriculum, her GPA, her class rank or distribution, her essays (they need to be great at very selective schools), her achievements in and outside the classroom, her ECs and level of involvement, role played in those endeavors, and achievements in those pursuits, her recommendations and much else. So, no advice that I or anyone else can give you is truly geared to your D individually with so little to go on. </p>

<p>But I can mention some GENERAL things. I feel your D's list is very foolish. Everyone should have reaches (that are remotely possible and not impossibly out of reach). But a candidate's list MUST be balanced with reaches, matches, and safeties. It will differ from kid to kid but let's say roughly 40% reaches, 40% matches, and 20% safeties will make up her list. </p>

<p>I believe in having TWO safeties. For one thing, a lot of time there is not a guarantee even if a very strong likelihood. Also, if the scenario turns out that she only gets into her safeties, she is left with a choice. Options are nice to have so you don't attend a school by default. A student should put a LOT of thought into her safeties and like them enough to attend (even if not her most favorite schools) and they should not be chosen just because she can get admitted. I see a lot of people have all reach schools and then tack on their state U "just because" they can get in. Nothing wrong with state U, but it makes sense to put the same amount of care into selecting the safety as any other school on the list and that the safety meets one's selection criteria, and not simply a school one can get into. Without knowing more about your D, it is hard to say what a safety will be but what about Goucher, Drew, Hofstra, Syracuse, UVM, Penn State?</p>

<p>I believe your D needs match schools as well. The chance of getting into reach schools is not good (but worth applying to) and so if the reach schools do not come through, why does she have to jump down to her safeties when she has a reasonable chance to get into some schools in between? It makes sense to have schools in between where the student has a realistic chance of about 50-50, where one's stats fall right in the middle of the school and the admit rate is at least over 20% if not more (depends on the student). I can't really accurately suggest match schools for your D without knowing more of her profile. But since you mentioned her reach schools, and going ONLY by that, then I think she should look for some matches such as (and I can't say these are truly matches for her based on way too little information): Skidmore, Sarah Lawrence, Conn College, Lehigh, Muhlenberg, American, Brandeis, UMiami, Elon, Northeastern, Tulane, Bates, Dickinson, Trinity, James Madison, Wheaton, Fordham. </p>

<p>Your D's selection criteria isn't really that defined either. She says no to snow, yet she has Brown and Northwestern on her list (both quite snowy). She says no to outside the Northeast but has Northwestern on the list. When students select where to apply, they try to match schools up with their selection criteria but not every school will match up just so with each of their selection criteria and so sometimes they have to give in one area, to get something in another. And right now, she only has to decide where to APPLY and not where to ATTEND. Once she sees what options she is handed, she can then afford to be picky! </p>

<p>Lastly, your D needs a shift in her outlook. In my job as a college counselor, I have run into this "attitude" your D seems to possess where they knock out lotsa schools as "not good enough"...."I don't want to go to a safety school!" or "If I have to go to a safety school, why bother if I am not good enough for the schools I really want to go to?" Believe me, in my job, I have heard it all. This is a poor attitude. I have two D's a little older than your D. My oldest applied to some top schools (she attended Brown in fact, where your D is applying). But she had reaches, matches and safeties on her list. And I don't know your D's profile but based on the little bit you shared, I believe my D had a much stronger profile. Even still, as ellemenope posted, schools that accept less than 20% of applicants, even if your stats fall in the middle or at the top, are STILL REACHES for anyone. We considered these types of schools reaches, even though my D's stats were very strong for these schools and so it wasn't like your D where you say she falls in the lower mid 50% with the SATs (that's all the info. you provided and so I don't know the rest). I'm saying for kids with extremely high SATs, perfect GPAs, valedictorians, many EC achievements, academic awards, etc. etc......schools like Brown are STILL REACHES BY THE FACT OF THEIR VERY LOW ADMIT RATES. So, the odds at these schools are very low for ANYONE. They very well may be even lower for your D if she is in the lower half range of their published stats. Reaches are fine. </p>

<p>Your D will be served well by finding matches and of course safeties. She is too caught up in thinking that her reach schools are the "best" and nothing else is good enough. She needs to find SOMETHING she likes about any school. If she likes a few things about a school, that is reason enough to apply. She is only applying, not attending. I would have her find some, apply, and visit. She may be turning her nose up at schools that she very well WILL like. And she very well may end up attending these schools, as nobody can count on the reach schools that you mention, even top students (is your D a TOP student?). It pays off to find schools you like even just a little as matches and safeties because the odds are high that you'll end up at these schools. To only have reaches and one safety is playing with fire. She is highly likely to end up at the safety. Why not expand the options she'll be handed in spring with some matches and another safety? You and she will be glad you did.</p>