Daughter wants to attend Art college....EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE

Paying for College
221

@maintainin, Some people are very, very good at wearing others down until they get their way. I have a shirttail relative who is extremely good at it. Some observations I’ve made over the years may help you.

  • If you discuss your reasons for saying no, the opportunity to get you to say yes still exists.
  • If you continue to research whatever the topic is (in this case, the school) when you clearly know enough to have made what you, and every reasonable person around you, agrees is a wise decision, you're giving them the opportunity to get you to say yes. Especially if that research includes making a call to someone who is clearly, and strongly, on that person's side.
  • If you respond to name calling in kind, you're continuing the discussion and giving them the opportunity to get you to say yes.
  • If you allow either you or your mother to be seen as a possible funding source, ever, you're giving them the opportunity to get you to say yes.

If you really mean no, you must say NO.

@Lookingforward is right. No matter what they say, you’re response must be short and simple:

“I’m sorry. We’ve discussed this. The answer is no.”

Then stop talking. If they move on to other topics (other schools, the weather, whatever…) fine. Chat. Have a lovely discussion. If the discussion comes back to this school at all, repeat your canned response and add:

“Sorry, I have to go. I’ll talk to you soon. Love you (unless it’s to your ex). Bye.”

Then hang up. Put your phrases on a note card and keep it in your wallet if you have to, but do not keep engaging them on this topic or it won’t stop.

And I think your idea about not sending money directly to your ex once your daughter turns 18 is a good one. Open up a 529 college account for her (just be sure it’s set up so she can’t use it for schools like these.) Maybe even put it in your name so you have to draw the money out…ask around on this board because someone will know how to put your money somewhere safe where your daughter can’t get it against your wishes. And I agree with making sure your mom knows not to give money directly to your daughter. If, at some point, she helps your daughter with college costs, make sure the money goes through you so you know what’s going on. Your mom doesn’t need this stress.

Actually, your daughter’s SAT and GPA aren’t moot. YOU can’t research viable options for your daughter (and we can’t help you), unless you can get them. If she won’t give them to you, maybe her high school guidance counselor will. You have a right to her high school records just as much as her mom does, don’t you? I wouldn’t put any money out anywhere if my child withheld her high school grades and test scores from me.

222

^^Good!

223

If the D is generally an honor student in HS then she would probably be able to get into a 4year college (after a gap year for sure).

224

@austinmshauri. Very good suggestions. Thank you.

Her mom just got her very last check for child support this month. She will be getting no more money from me. Honestly, I don’t care if I never talked to the woman again. I’m serious about that. And as of May 30th legally I won’t have to.

225

Regarding 529 funds, SAA may actually qualify to receive those. It certainly participates in the federal student loan program.

From the IRS website regarding 529 plans:

Q. What is an eligible educational institution?
A. An eligible educational institution is generally any college, university, vocational school, or other postsecondary educational institution eligible to participate in a student aid program administered by the U.S. Department of Education.

Also, 529’s are considered “parental assets” in all circumstances. However, in the case of divorce where the adult child is still a dependent for tax purposes (i.e. are a deduction on one of the parent’s income tax return but perhaps not the return of the person setting up the 529) it might get a bit complicated. In this case OP might be more like a grandparent or kindly friend than a parent (i.e. no custodial rights or rights to declare the student a dependent but certainly free to set up a 529 with DD as the beneficiary). I would think, however, that the assets remain with the setter-upper, as opposed to the beneficiary. This is not the same thing as a trust or an UTMA/UGMA. Furthermore, OP can change the beneficiary any time he pleases. As long as the funds are going toward legitimate educational expenses (including food, housing, transportation, tuition for credit courses to an eligible degree-granting institution, etc.) there aren’t many other restrictions or complications.

226

@maintainin, I haven’t commented before but have been reading the thread. By fifteen pages we know members have very strong opinions on your situation and almost all seem to be on your side. I think you have been respectful of your ex wife and daughter and I see no reason why you shouldn’t send them a link to this thread. You don’t need to discuss it further. You have heard from knowledgeable college counselors and working artists. All seem to say this school is a bad deal. Her credits won’t transfer to a real college.

There’s a for profit school in my city that was shut down by federal loan auditors. It shut its doors suddenly and the students find their credits don’t transfer and they are on the hook for thousands in loans.

I hope you can talk your mom into not supporting this insane plan. Seniors are prime victims for fraud. This school is a fraud.

I would never contribute money to a child who is not transparent with SAT scores or GPA.

Maybe you have an app on your phone where you can ignore texts from ex and daughter. It’s as if they have been inducted into a cult. You are not arrogant and your ex crossed a line by insulting you.

Fifteen pages of members support your position. It’s a shame your child is too selfish to see your love for her. Good luck.

227

<<<
I am done. I’m not talking to my daughter about this(meaning anything to do with this school) anymore and I’m not talking to my ex about it anymore. If they keep bringing it up I will, as I’ve done countless times, tell them I don’t support it. I’ve turned my phone off as I have plans this evening and am not going to allow this to ruin the rest of my day. If I have to I’ll just temporarily block her if it keeps up. I’ll stop with posting the texts. I’m not trying to make out like my ex is a bad person and I’m some saint. But she clearly is not thinking very straight with all of this.


[QUOTE=""]

[/QUOTE]

Well, the ex may be claiming that “her mind is made up,” but the fact that she’s continuing to harass you means that she know that she doesn’t have the means to make this all happen without you “on board.” So, you can stop this from happening just by sticking to your guns.

If the wife had “all her ducks in a row” (current husband on-board, knows that they’ll qualify for the loans, knows that DD has her living expenses covered, then she’d be leaving you alone and proceeding as she sees fit.

but…her excessive harassment just indicates (to me) that she needs YOU onboard to make this happen. Maybe it’s because her own H has said, “We will ONLY borrow the second year. Your Ex-H needs to borrow the first year. I don’t want to borrow first in case your DD ends up not liking this school.”

So…you don’t need to discuss this anymore, except maybe to clarify when Granny’s Money will get applied (I like your idea of only using Granny’s money for Year Two! that is the best way!

228

There are an ex-H & W in our extended family who don’t talk, even though they share a child over 18. Makes it hard on everyone. I hope you’ll find a way to communicate civilly on occasion with your D’s mom once this situation has resolved. It will make things much more bearable for the daughter you two share, and she (your D) will perhaps even eventually appreciate some of the wisdom that you have.

229

This art school she’s chosen sounds like a scam. Everything these days is done on computers/digitally. Go anywhere she can afford and take classes in Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign- whatever people use- and plenty of artists are self taught or one can access classes online. Skillshare.com is one site that will teach these digital programs for a very modest fee. There is no magic art college. Talent, drive, ability to network and self promote are more important than any degree. That’s my advice as a self employed artist with an art school degree & over 30 years experience.

230

I finally did a little google on the school. From this Dec 2014 article it sounds as if they are having a hard time meeting the fed’s gainful employment ratio. If not in compliance by July 1, 2015 they won’t be eligible to receive payments though federal loan programs:

http://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/news/2014/12/24/school-of-advertising-art-expects-graduation-rate.html

231

http://www.antiochmidwest.edu/studentstories/jessica-barry-2013/

Jessica Barry is a 1997 graduate of SAA and also the President and Owner of SAA.

Apparently she felt the need for more than a 2-year degree and studied management at ‘Antioch Midwest’.

232

I wish this site had way to respond directly to a quote from a fellow poster. If it does I don’t know how to do it. You know, hit reply to their post and have it highlighted.

***@maintainin, I haven’t commented before but have been reading the thread. By fifteen pages we know members have very strong opinions on your situation and almost all seem to be on your side. I think you have been respectful of your ex wife and daughter and I see no reason why you shouldn’t send them a link to this thread. You don’t need to discuss it further. You have heard from knowledgeable college counselors and working artists. All seem to say this school is a bad deal. Her credits won’t transfer to a real college.

There’s a for profit school in my city that was shut down by federal loan auditors. It shut its doors suddenly and the students find their credits don’t transfer and they are on the hook for thousands in loans.

I hope you can talk your mom into not supporting this insane plan. Seniors are prime victims for fraud. This school is a fraud.***

@OspreyCV22. I may end up giving them a link to this thread. This place has been awesome and I appreciate so much all of your all’s guidance and support. I’ve actually copied and pasted many things mentioned here in texts because you all can explain it better than I ever could have. I just don’t think any of it is getting thru.

I don’t think my momma supports any of this either. I think she 1) is trying to do something nice for her granddaughter she loves very much. 2) Was trying to gauge where my ex really is with all this. Trying to see if she’s really willing to sign on to all that debt her and my duaghter are going to take on. This second point remains to be seen.

She won’t be a victim of fraud in the sense I guess. She is not cosigning any loans. She just mentioned writing a 15k check(to go directly my daughters tuition). I explained to her today that if she wants to do that she should not do it until the second year. I regret even bringing up the fact to my ex wife that my mom is willing to even do that.

IDK, theres still alot left to happen. They may get denied any loans. My daughters best friend, who also seems to be in just as much with this crazy plan, may get her bubble burst. At which time my daughter may suddenly lose interest. And there may be another ally unbeknownst , my ex’s husband, who realizes this is all a load of horse**** as well. He’s always seemed pretty reasonable and wasn’t on board with this for awhile.

But I know I’m done talking about this school with them. I’m taking the hard hard line.

233

Please, PLEASE make this student take a gap year and look at different options or have her enroll at the local university/CC.

234

^^
He’s not the custodial parent. He can’t “make” her do anything. If the mom and stepdad go along with the co-signing, then that’s going to happen.

however, fingers-crossed that the stepdad was hiding behind the desire for the dad to “borrow first”. If so, then the stepdad may end up saying, “no”.

235

In case your daughter reads this thread:

FAQ from this artist http:// Treimanized • FAQs! (please read before sending me questions)

"I want to go to CalArts, is it worth it?

I will try and summarize the very complicated issue of “is art school worth it”. I’ll be blunt. CalArts is expensive. A lot of (but not all) graduates wind up in industry jobs. But CalArts is not the only gateway into the industry by any means. There’s this notion that big studios will ONLY look at your work if you went to CalArts and it simply isn’t true. We had the benefit of industry connections already put in place for us, but really… that’s it. (NOTE: Connections do NOT mean instant jobs. We all still had to do the work, build portfolios, apply… and qualify. Information for most studio internships can be found online… just a Google search away!). Any art school you go to, the work you do and how much you learn is only going to be as good as effort you put into it. These days there’s so much art education available online for a fraction of the cost of a big art school. Feedback and peers are the most valuable things you can have in an art education, and those aren’t hard to find if you look! Short answer: you don’t have to go into crazy debt over art school. If you can swing it financially and it sounds like the kind of experience you want, go for it, but there are lots of other options out there."

If selectivity means anything, I’m going to guess that CalArts is a good, well known art school. If prestige means anything, CalArts is probably better than SAA in terms of job placements (even if only by a smidgen!) But let’s say they are equal: substitute “CalArts” with “SAA” and it really leaves you wondering if it’s worth it. I think she says it well: it’s expensive, and there are many other options. Please take all of our advice and reconsider!

I know it may seem like we’re all against you, but we simply want to keep bad decisions from being made.
It’s BECAUSE we know you’re an honor student, you’re talented, and you have potential, that we don’t want to see you fall into a trap of debt, because as working parents (or in my case, a student worker), we know how hard it is to earn money.

I’m sorry you are caught up in a financial mess. My dad has threatened me financially more than once: if I don’t get good grades (yeah, as a second semester senior, ugh), he won’t pay for my college, etc etc. I’m glad to say that your dad isn’t like that; he’s not trying to control you financially or anything, thank goodness, but rather knows that it’s just wayy too much debt to deal with–he cares! If I had gone to UIUC, I would have had a debt of 35k (per year), and I know that even as a comp sci major (let’s say, a starting salary of 70k), it would still OVERWHELM me.

I know you don’t want to give up your dream just yet, but I hope you’ll be open to our words, and even though we’re strangers, we still care (cuz, ya know, we’re all humans). If you ever want to talk to a senior girl, I’ll be around, and I promise I won’t be pushy about anything. Take care!

P.S. do you have a blog or somewhere you post your work? I’d love to see it :slight_smile: My friends are artists so I’m quite appreciative of any art!

236

***He’s not the custodial parent. He can’t “make” her do anything. If the mom and stepdad go along with the co-signing, then that’s going to happen.

however, fingers-crossed that the stepdad was hiding behind the desire for the dad to “borrow first”. If so, then the stepdad may end up saying, “no”.****

I’m not the custodial parent and really at the end of May my ex won’t be considered one anymore either since my daughter will have graduated high school and will be considered an adult. The only way she goes to this school is if my ex helps her to by cosigning loans for some ridiculous amount. It was quiet thru the weekend.

It really does piss me off when I think about it. They(meaning my ex and daughter) have NO right to tell me what to do with my finances and credit. Then turn around and try and hold it against me. I think its just a general lack of respect on my ex’s part.

237

<<<
I’m not the custodial parent and really at the end of May my ex won’t be considered one anymore either since my daughter will have graduated high school and will be considered an adult. The only way she goes to this school is if my ex helps her to by cosigning loans for some ridiculous amount. It was quiet thru the weekend.


[QUOTE=""]

[/QUOTE]

For financial aid purposes, your ex will be considered the “custodial parent” even tho the legal obligations will cease.

Also, if your daughter lives with your ex during breaks/summers, etc, then your ex will have more influence over everything she does.

that’s what I meant when I said that you can’t “make” your dau do anything.

238

Keep in mind, too, that someone is probably declaring her a dependent on a tax return somewhere? And that when she filled out FAFSA she probably provided her mom’s financial information at the very least?

And unless you had communicated your intent to stay out of your daughter’s college decision process, the very fact that they bring you in at the last second merely to bankroll a crucial part of it shows a general lack of . . . a bunch of things. I wouldn’t blame your daughter because the kids usually don’t understand the costs. But your ex should have been on top of the situation from the start. And she’s your daughter as well - surely you would want to know how she’s getting along with college decisions? That would be your ex’s responsibility to communicate as much as your daughter’s. Did they not think you would be needed in some capacity here?

It may have been malice underlying the decision to withhold information till the last second but actually the fact that they didn’t even have a financial aid meeting till early May sniffs of a real lack of organization and thought. Not a good sign for making any college decision, let alone one as controversial as this one.

239

We shared the claiming of dependent every other year. I haven’t been asked to fill out anything.

I never communicated my intent to stay out of it. They have just never came out at me with anything besides this school.

I for the most part understand my naïve 18 yo daughter with big dreams not realizing the burden she would be putting on herself. I don’t appreciate the guilt trip and manipulation she has tried though.

I’m VERY disappointed in my ex. Who as a 38 y.o. should know better.

240

FYI to OP: Kid will be deemed a dependent by college financial aid offices until age 24.