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Let’s be honest here . . . until such time as mom or daughter has an epiphany, the OP is screwed.
Either the daughter won’t get to go to art school at all, and will blame him, or will attend and be forced to drop out at some point due to lack of funds, and will blame him.
Or, best case scenario, she’ll complete art school, be amazingly successful, pay back all her loans, and still blame Dad for not supporting her!
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Possibly, and there are also a couple more likely scenarios…She will either finish with $50k debt and have trouble paying back the debt even with a job…or drop out at some point (because she doesn’t like it or she’s not “cutting it”) and she will have an even harder time paying back the loans.
Again…there is a likely hidden problem that the mom/daughter likely haven’t shared with this dad because it would further scare him…the DD will likely already have $27k of federal loans.
lol…with the best case scenario…yes, after she wins the lottery.
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I’d recommend that the OP make a detailed list of all available and affordable programs that he can possibly find and send it to daughter. I’d also recommend that if he’s willing to provide “matching” funds for pre-enrollment earned income, that he put that offer in writing and send it to his daughter, too.
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I agree that the dad should do some homework so that he can offer alternatives rather than just say, “no.”
If he can find out what Wisconsin schools will offer (if the DD can get instate rates there), and what the Ohio schools can offer.
I know the father lives in SD. My point is…there are colleges in Ohio too that would be affordable. She is instate there too.
this is a “for profit” school
School of Advertising Art is a very small two-year, private for-profit school with 115 students enrolled.
What types of jobs were these students placed in?
The job placement rate includes completers hired for: Jobs within the field
Positions that recent completers were hired for include: Graphic Designer, Web Designer, Photographer
When were the former students employed?
100% of graduates eligible for career services, who began the program on August 31, 2011 (35 of 35), gained employment in the advertising field by July 2014.
only 35 students, who began in Aug, 2011, completed the program??
I don’t see a mention of actual salaries, but salaries are often quite modest for photographers, web designers, and graphic designers.
Just say “No”. If she’s been hearing it her whole life, it won’t be life-altering; if she hasn’t, its time.
AFAIK this is the only option that my daughter has ever looked at. My impression is this…My daughter has only had thoughts of attending this school and my ex has just been blindly and naively cheerleading her on with this without thinking about the amount of debt and reality of the situation. I find it incredible she was willing to cosign 25k if I would.
There’s a lot of questions you all are asking that I’m just not sure of at this point. I expect all of this to play out in the near future. But I do appreciate your all’s input!
And I know I will get blamed. I fully expect to be the scapegoat. But I’m fine with that. Because I know I’m doing the right thing and actually doing everyone a favor. Even if they don’t know it yet. For all I know maybe my ex was hoping deep inside I would say no to cosigning. It’s a lot easier to put it all on dad halfway across the country. But like I said, I’m fine with it. I hate to say this but it’s the truth…if my daughter gets upset with me and doesn’t want to talk to me…well things really won’t have changed that much.
At this point, I would really like her to take her time and look at other options. And find a job somewhere for a little while and see how hard it is to make money. Have her start paying for some things her own self and see how much life costs. She has no perspective.
I think if the mom truly is hoping for you to say, “no,” then mom would have also encouraged “back up” safety schools, yet none seem to be on the horizon.
More likely it’s a bunch of short-sightedness going on.
If you have any need to borrow within the next 5-10 years, then you could legitimately just say, "I can’t co-sign because my credit rating will take a hit, and then I won’t be able to borrow to pay for X, Y, Z…while that loan is still outstanding.
I am the same age as your daughter, and I just want to say that I have many, talented, artistic friends–they do commissions, post art on tumblr/deviantart, win competitions and awards, etc, and ALL of them are either planning to major in something other than art, or double major…because they know majoring in just art and earning a living afterwards is hard. I hope she jumps the bandwagon and find a backup because, if she was my friend, I would be scared for her.
I mean, I understand how she feels: its something she loves, something she is excited about, and we teens have a tendency to be stubborn once an idea holds. But please let her know that there are other ways to follow her passion without going to an art school:
- double major
- Get herself known by posting art, networking, joining or getting invited to sharing communities such as Dribble (a site where designers advertise themselves to potential employers), find internships
Of course, she’ll want to improve her skills, which goes back to point one.
Please ask her, what if it doesn’t work out? What if she can’t find a job? Then what?
Plus a degree in another field might actually improve her chances. who knows, maybe a degree in computer science will get her into a company, and from there she could share her work (networking, basically).
My advice would be to acknowledge her passion, and her desires to go, but financially, it is unfeasible (my mom made me create an Excel worksheet on interest accumulation for the next ten years if I were to have loans for a so-and-so college–something like that might kick her into reality) and that, at the end, you’ll still support her with what you can, within reason, so it is best to find other options.
Also, the irony: School of ADVERTISING art perfected their advertising…who would have thought.
I hope it works out!
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School of ADVERTISING art perfected their advertising…who would have thought.
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ha ha…excellent point!
What I did when my kids were younger and wanted an item that was outside our budget was to find a less expensive item that had similar features. That’s the approach I’d take here. Saying no to THIS school doesn’t mean saying no to all schools. I’d research the classes this expensive school offers and try to find comparable ones at an accredited traditional college. They can’t be the only school offering drawing, graphics, etc. I would search out schools until I found similar, but less expensive programs, then create an excel spreadsheet that shows the debt payments for the expensive school as well as a couple of reasonably priced colleges so she can see the difference.
And I’d use the schools’ marketing materials to help me. She’s a 17-year-old girl. Surely there’s something at a ~5,000 person campus that could hold her interest over a 115 person student body. If she were my daughter, I’d suggest she take a gap year so we could shop around. Ask her to help you plan a couple of proper college tour trips. Taking some inexpensive road trips is far less expensive than $25k and is likely to save your daughter thousands more. If she gets a job for spending money, you have the added bonus of her seeing how hard it is to make money.
I think you could certainly be more supportive of looking at other options for her and with her. It doesn’t matter if you are farther away, with phones and internet. That is just a copout. You can discuss why that amount of money is too much. Have her look at Univ of Cincinnati a public. and tuition/fees only 11,000. It is on the same list of best graphic design schools as the one she is looking at. The list I linked earlier, so it’s design program should be investigated and the school has a 73 pct admission rate overall.
^^^ Good suggestions, but please put in writing. That will will be far more effective than trying to “discuss” with a child who doesn’t want to listen.
There are a large number of four year colleges where this student could do the same and get a four year degree.
Is there some reason why this student did not apply to colleges with graphic design programs? RIT for example has one. There are plenty of others. They teach not only the art portion but also the business end, as often these folks are freelancers.
I am a strong supporter of degrees in the arts. I think this student didn’t do her due diligence in terms of seeking out ALL the different options.
I feel for OP, as he obviously cares about his D’s future. I also feel for his D, who in addition to having the hardship of a broken home, might have been put in the position of choosing between parents - the fact that she doesn’t seem to have a particulary robust relationship with her bio dad, regardless as to any reasons beyond geography - is sad.
I would recommend to the OP that he print out this entire thread, and leave it for her to read when she comes to visit him later this month. She may throw it back in his face, or still want to blame him, but if she realizes that there are dozens of other parents who universally agree with him that this simply is not in his, but more importanly her best interest.
Best of luck to you
*I think you could certainly be more supportive of looking at other options for her and with her. It doesn’t matter if you are farther away, with phones and internet. That is just a copout.
A copout? Wow. Not really. Just because I refuse to cosign a ridiculous loan and don’t want my daughter burdened with ridiculous debt doesn’t mean all this is suddenly thrown in my lap and it’s my responsibility. “Gee dad, you wouldn’t let me go 80k in debt so now you need to figure out what i have to do next…” “Hey ahole, you just crushed our daughters dreams so now you need to figure out whats she’s going to do…” Ummm, no. I don’t. The people she interacts with ands talks to everyday have failed her. They are the ones that shouldn’t let it get to this point. And now dad, who she hardly ever talks to and hardly ever sees has to figure all this out? You really don’t understand my family situation and I don’t appreciate your words. You don’t know my daughter and you don’t know her personality. Yes, it would be extremely difficult to talk about this over the phone and the internet.
And as mentioned before. I do plan in discussing with her when I see her at the end of the month.
This is, unfortunately, a bit of closing the barn door after the cows have gone. Sounds like OP only recently discovered this was the plan.
OP, at various points, we have all had to be the bad guy. When we have considered and thought it out rationally, sometimes, we just have to stick to our guns.
But do try to keep a relationship with your daughter. If she’s reluctant, you can still keep in contact, even if it’s one-way, even if it takes years to see results.
Ive got a superior art college near us, quite expensive- and the motivated, talented kids do well, post-grad. I’ve got the equivalent of a state branch nearby, maybe 1/5 the cost- which happens to have a superior art program. The motivated, talented kids do well, post-grad. 20 miles away, another state’s branch U, also cheap, same story.
My first question would be: does this young gal even have art talent? Is she motivated?
Not sure why this discussion needs to wait until when she visits. Perhaps opening the discussion now would be better.
And could she have gained admission to a 4-year college (GPA? ACT?)?
Text I just received from my daughter:
Hey dad I want to talk to you about the whole loan situation. I know you said you didn’t feel comfortable co-signing but I don’t think you understand how important this is to me to go to this school. Because if you don’t cosign then there’s a pretty good chance I won’t be able to go and it’s already May so it’s not like I have other colleges waiting. It’s too late and I don’t want to go to a community college like Edison or something and do something I don’t want to do for the rest of my life. I have the talent to go to this very good school. You probably think that since it’s an art school I’ll just be learning how to draw and paint and my career will be sitting in a room all day selling painting for like $50 but that’s not what this school is. It’s a graphic design and advertisement school. I’ll be making advertisements for possibly big companies that are world wide and it’ll be like I’m selling the product and it’s advertisement. It’s all around the world and it’s not something that’s just gonna go away. I know it’s an expensive school for just two years but it’s gonna be expensive anywhere I go. I don’t know if you thought that I would just never go to college and work at McDonalds for the rest of my life or work in a factory but if that’s what you thought then you’re completely wrong. This school is expensive because it’s a good school. They had a 100% job placement last year and the past years had 93%-100%. The school is connected to big business and they help their soon to be graduates find a job before they graduate. Right now the students graduating are on their internships and let’s say if I don’t like what I’m doing at a certain place I can go back to SAA and they will help me find another place. I know I can’t rely on the school for everything but it’s a good start. So it’s expensive because it’s a good school and what they do and it’s nationally recognized. So it’s not like once I graduate I will be looking for a job for months and not be able to pay off my loans. I understand that paying them off is my top priority. The average starting salary is $39,000. I don’t know how much you made annually but That’s a lot for a 20 year old who just graduated from college. And no one is asking you to cosign for the whole two years. Mike and my mom said if you could do the first year then they could do the second. And I get you’re uncomfortable but you’re not even giving me a chance. I’ve never let you down before and I’m a responsible child. And I think if you just hear me out or maybe research a little about the school then maybe you’ll be more comfortable. This is my future and it’s very important. And I want to do it for myself and to prove you wrong.
I hate this whole situation 
Obviously mom has made you the bad guy OP. I understand it’s not fair to you but don’t change your mind based on heart tugging. Edison and Sinclair CCs both have art programs. If that’s what your D really wants to go into she can find out how in a more affordable way.
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I have faith in myself to be able to take the responsibility of my financial debt. I was hoping you would have faith in me as well. College is expensive for everyone. I’m not asking you to pay for my college. I’m asking you to cosign. What am I suppose to do? Live with mike and my mom forever? Don’t you want me to be successful. And to my like I just picked a school and didn’t take the time to look it over.