dd cheerleader ivy bound?

<p>Marite,</p>

<p>I agree that leadership is not all that they look for and is not more revered than other attributes. I think things like you mentioned such as commitment, self-motivation, passion, drive, work ethic, collaborative skills, achievement, initiative, responsibility, passion/depth in an interest area, as well as leadership are attributes they look for. How those are accomplished is not as important as having those attributes. And leadership need not be the main attribute, nor even necessary, if you have a bunch of these other attributes that can be shown through your endeavors.</p>

<p>Just want to add that many feel they need to be a "captain" or "president" of some activity and that is not so. Leading, initiating, making significant contributions and achievements can be more noteworthy than a title.</p>

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Just want to add that many feel they need to be a "captain" or "president" of some activity and that is not so. Leading, initiating, making significant contributions and achievements can be more noteworthy than a title.

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<p>I agree. While both of my kids have/had several official leadership titles in h.s. activities, in some ways they may actually have led more in those activities in which they didn't have any official title. Leading by example, such as in work ethic or integrity, is important, and they found that teachers and coaches recognized that type of leading. When a coach sees younger players stepping up their game because of the example of a hard working senior, it doesn't matter that the senior may not be captain. He surely is leading.</p>

<p>Also, with regard to how colleges view leadership roles, when my S attended an information session for a big scholarship that is intended for high achieving leaders, the person giving the session rolled his eyes at the mention of student body president. According to my son, the guy said getting elected student body president is a joke at many schools, so they aren't impressed with the title alone; rather, they want to see what the student body president actually did. I think colleges (and apparently this scholarship program) are onto kids who collect leadership titles but who do little more than hold the titles.</p>

<p>I also wonder about students who "passionately" pursue something until they realize they won't be captain or president and then drop the activity. I think colleges want students who can lead but can also follow or just be team players. The same student who may be president of one organizaton may be a valuable member and worker for another.</p>

<p>Leadership is overrated if a college "requires" it for admission. I would hope that most schools don't and instead look at the overall package; everyone has strengths and to require "leadership" on the resume is as arbitrary as requiring "varsity letter".<br>
It can make up for other weaknesses, though. For example, my son has a friend whose test scores were relatively weak, and is an average student. However, he is an outstanding leader. He is charismatic, a great speaker, good with people, unbelievably motivated and enthusiastic, the whole kit and kaboodle. He ended up at a LAC in our home state and from what I understand he is already involved in student government and other organizations. That's just the type of person he is. His gift will more than make up for not being an academic whiz kid or great test taker.</p>

<p>Also, some teachers write about students being leaders when these students initiate or take a leading role in class discussions, get others to do/finish projects. In other words, one does not have to found a club for the sake of being able to say one was founder/president of the Podunk High School Club for the care and feeding of rednosed reindeers or some such.</p>

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And there is no "guaranteed" tip factor at the Ivies.

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Want to bet? If you are heavily recruited by the coach of a major sport in the Ivies, and you don't fail to meet certain minimum requirements, you are definitely given a tip toward admission, beyond that provided to non-athletes. It's probably the biggest hook left at the Ivies.</p>

<p>As an anecdote, respected CCer molliebatmit cheered at MIT and is now doing her PhD at Harvard.</p>

<p>These schools need cheerleaders, and they also attract fewer cheerleaders. I would think that the leadership issue is really a non-issue. The real issue is filling spots in clubs that tend to have a shortage.</p>

<p>I agree that initiative, dedication, and talent are at least as important as leadership. Artists are one example of kids who tend not to be so invested in leadership. Colleges are thrilled to get brilliant sculptors, poets, actors, and vocalists who were never elected president of anything and never directed the show; for the most part, arts activities just don't operate that way. When you're cast as Hamlet, you're not expected to help the director coach Rosencrantz.</p>

<p>I do wish people would read what I actually said before jumping all over me, but maybe I wasn't clear enough: cheerleading is a perfectly fine EC, like many other ECs. Like all ECs, there are some drawbacks if it is your only or primary EC. The fact that you are involved in cheerleading--even a very successful cheerleading squad--will show that you are committed to your activity, but, without more, it will not show other qualities, such as leadership, academic ability, etc. It MAY show leadership if either you or a recommender are able to explain why it does. If you are the captain of the squad, that suggests leadership, as it does with any other sport--but again, as with other ECs, having the title only goes so far. I agree that leadership is only one quality, but it is one that colleges say they are looking for.</p>

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The fact that you are involved in cheerleading--even a very successful cheerleading squad--will show that you are committed to your activity, but, without more, it will not show other qualities, such as leadership, academic ability, etc.

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I don't think anyone has suggested that "without more" it would show those other qualities. You had previously said you thought cheerleading and sports were
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unlikely to show much leadership (since the coach is the primary leader),

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That's what people took issue with, as you could really say the same about most school clubs. Does a foot soldier in Beta Club or Key Club show any more leadership than a varsity athlete? Without more, probably not, but I don't think anyone has suggested that.</p>

<p>Why should an EC show academic ability?</p>

<p>S1's main ECs were: karate and joining a discussion group. In fact his essay was about joining that group. He made absolutely no claim to leadership. Perhaps the adcoms saw that he had started karate at a very early age and had stuck to it through brown belt. He was admitted to top ten schools.</p>

<p>Well, presumably the discussion group showed academic interest, at least. I guess I'm just resisting the idea that any EC is just as good as any other for showing whatever qualities a person may have--I just don't think that's true, although a motivated person can make the most of any opportunity. I also agree that students should generally choose their activities based on what their passions are, and not what will look best to colleges--but we shouldn't pretend that all ECs look the same to colleges. If your daughter were deciding, say, between karate and cheerleading--says she likes both equally--and asks you which one you think would help her most for college, what would you say?</p>

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we shouldn't pretend that all ECs look the same to colleges.

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That seems to be a strawman argument, because I don't see anyone suggesting that they all do look the same.</p>

<p>As for helping a child decide between karate and cheerleading, I'd recommend she try to find a way to keep up with both. Short of that, I'd recommend that she consider which one she enjoyed the most and perhaps which one she thought she might want to continue in college. If she is inclined to pursue one mainly because of how it would look to a college, I'd suggest she drop that one. All ECs are surely not viewed equally in colleges' eyes, but an individual student's particular level of engagement has so much to do with how the EC is viewed that I don't think one can just look at an activity and form a valid opinion about which "would help her most for college." As with so many other decisions, it depends on so many individual factors that I don't think one can generalize here about which activities would be more helpful or which would look better.</p>

<p>Well, my example assumed that she claims to enjoy both activities equally, but you're not obligated to accept that hypothetical. Still, perhaps you're saying that you would respond to your daughter by saying, "How it looks to colleges shouldn't be a factor in deciding what activities you do." I have no problem with that position. Or, if your answer is, "It's impossible to say how any activity will look to colleges, because you don't know what you will be able to accomplish." I'm OK with that too, although I don't think that's the answer I'd give my kid if he were deciding between the Science Club and the Comic Book Club.</p>

<p>Hunt, I understand what you're saying, too. And my first answer in these situations would be to tell my daughter to find a way to continue both activities. If she truly loved them equally, she'd find a way. That really seems to be what kids who end up at the top schools do. It may be impossible in some instances, but in the examples you cited, I think it would be feasible.</p>

<p>I recall seeing on the Princeton admissions website a couple of years ago that they were really interested in seeing that students were really busy and engaged in high school ECs to show that they could handle a rigorous academic load on top of the heavy EC load. They specifically said that they knew lots of students would drop the h.s. ECs and pick up something entirely new in college.</p>

<p>Hunt, I still disagree with much of what you wrote. For one thing, it doesn't matter if the EC shows leadership as that is not the only quality adcoms are looking for. Leadership is a nice quality but so are other things such as initiative, drive, dedication, organization, making a significant contribution, achieving at a high level of the endeavor, creativity, etc. So, an EC can look mighty fine to an adcom sans leadership. Besides the point, I still see NO difference in someone rising to a leadership role in cheerleading than almost any other group or sport. There may be elected positions who are responsible for organizing things. There may be someone in charge of creating new routines. In any grouping, certain people act as leaders, which can be demonstrated by what they accomplished and documented in recs, etc. Further, the nature of cheerleading itself involves some degree of leadership because they are trying to raise spirit among the student body at events, in front of others, etc. But again, leadership is but one quality and not the most important for college admissions. I see no difference in the long term dedication to this activity which is very physical and technical and involves being outgoing, collaboration, and sometimes competition, than many other groups. </p>

<p>You mention if your kid had to choose between karate and cheerleading and she asks which one do I think helps her most for college, what would I say as a parent. I can't imagine my kid asking such a question as they did what they did out of pure interest and strong desire to do their ECs and we never discussed which ones they "should" do. I suppose if this question came up, I'd say, do the one you love the most if you only have time for one but if you want to do both and can make it work, that's fine too. Put your all into it and achieve what you can. Only do it if you love it. Nothing more. We never evaluated our kids' ECs. They just begged to do them and most were began at a very young age and they fell in love with the activities and it was their choice which ones to do.</p>

<p>I still do not get your point about the EC showing "academic abilities." ECs are not necessarily meant to show academic ability. ECs are endeavors outside the classroom in one's interest areas. Sometimes, for some kids, their ECs are related to academic subjects...such as literary magazine, math club, robotics, etc. But there is NO way an EC needs to be connected to academics and those ECs have NO MORE value than ones that are not academically related. NONE of my kids ECs were academically related and they were very heavily involved in ECs every single afternoon, every single evening, and Sat. and Sunday. They showed their academic strengths in their academic work. Their ECs revolved around interests not connected to subjects studied in school (with the exception of music). These certainly were not "lesser" ECs because they don't demonstrate academic abilities. They demonstrated academic abilities by taking the hardest classes possible, accelerating, going beyond the HS curriculum, doing independent studies, getting top grades, ranked very high (one happened to be val), and doing quite well on standardized testing. Their ECs showed OTHER qualities and traits beyond academic abilities. This is not to knock those who have EC interests that are related to academics as those are just as good but just happen to not be what my own kids did but I would value an academically related EC just the same. </p>

<p>I don't think anyone suggested that all ECs look the same. However, I did suggest that WHAT the endeavor is ....is not as important as the qualities demonstrated....the contributions one has made, initiative, drive, dedication, making an impact, achieving highly, leading, creating, etc. Those qualities can be shown in a myriad of endeavors and I see cheerleading squads as no different. There is a lot of commitment in that activity. Lots of collaboration. There can be achievement (such as in competitions, selection for something, awards). A student can lead the group and take on certain organizational responsibilities. A member may create by creating the choreography. The student tries to lead school spirit. A member may initiate something that has an impact. This can happen in any group. I see more worth in this dedicated activity than a "club" that meets once a week and accomplishes nothing. It is what you do in the activity that matters, not what the activity is. </p>

<p>Further, as mentioned earlier, colleges want all types of students who will contribute to activities on their campus. If they have a cheer squad, they will want outstanding cheerleaders for it, just like members of the orchetra, school newspaper, theatrical shows, and soccer squad. You may be valuing other ECs over this one but I don't see adcoms doing so. Karate is not better than cheerleading. It is more about what you did in that endeavor and what it demonstrates about your qualities then the topic of the endeavor itself. And I would not pick and choose an EC with college admissions in mind. I would have a kid follow their passions and achieve in those areas, maybe even start something of their own, but I wouldn't care WHAT the topic or interest area was, as long as it was something they were really genuinely interested in. The rest will follow.</p>

<p>Hunt, I cross posted with you. Our HS barely had any "clubs." Most ECs were significant endeavors that required big time commitments such as sports, band, plays and musicals, etc. There were some smaller commitment ones like student government or NHS. We didn't have things like Comic Book Club. Comic Book Club is fine. However, where I would say that ECs are NOT equal are ones that meet once a week for an hour and don't accomplish much and ones that may involve 15 hours per week with many achievements along the way. It isn't the topic (such as cheerleading, karate, comic books) that matters but the level of involvement and contribution and achievement. If my kid wanted comic book club, not a problem. I would think she could ALSO get involved in something else that takes up more time and involvement and do both. </p>

<p>Frankly, I have never had a discussion with my kids of "what EC do you want to do?" It never came up. Actually, they were begging us to be able to do so many ECs of their own initiative that our lives and theirs were SOOOOOOOO full of these commitments as they kept wanting to take on more and more as they didn't want to give anything up and they created new additional opportunities that they wanted to do of their own initiative. They are exactly like this now in college. Their schedules are mind boggling. But now I don't drive them 100 miles per day to do all this. :D</p>

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I don't think that's the answer I'd give my kid if he were deciding between the Science Club and the Comic Book Club.

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I'll assume you'd tell your kid to keep the Science Club. But, to be a contrarian here, I'd suggest the Comic Book Club. It'd show that he can engage both the right and left sides of his brain. Academic prowess can be shown through class selection and class achievement.</p>

<p>So there are multiple ways of looking at the same situation - and admissions counselors know how to do that.</p>

<p>But of course, in the end, there is more to high school than trying to get into college. Kids have to try to get some enjoyment and pleasure out of those 4 years. EC's should be designed to give them that enjoyment and pleasure in whatever venue is appropriate.</p>

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EC's should be designed to give them that enjoyment and pleasure in whatever venue is appropriate.

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<p>Bingo! That's how I view ECs. My children LOVED their ECs. They were part of their identity and had been lifelong interests. They wanted to continue them in college. One of my kids even made her EC endeavor her college major and lifelong career interest! :D The value of their ECs were immeasurable to me and as much a part of their development as their academic learning. They got a lot out of their ECs. And they happened to not be academically related. They happened to also be high achievers academically but ECs were about something else in life. I am completely certain if my kids had never been college bound, that they would have done exactly the same ECs as they did. They did the ECs for their own sake. When they applied to college, they simply documented what they were involved in. They would do these things if college were not in the picture. As well, they strongly desired to continue these EC endeavors IN college, not to get into college. </p>

<p>Next year, when D1 is in grad school, I think she is going to miss some of these ECs very much as they are not part of the grad school experience. She can still lead some groups related to her major as she does now, or be active in various organizations and leadership roles as she does now in college, but her unrelated ECs that she has done her entire life as well as in college, will not be part of grad school. :( Some are lifelong interests that she can continue to some degree on her own but not in organized ways. My other D made her EC passions her career and so she won't ever have to give up her ECs! They are her life now.</p>

<p>Of course cheerleading demonstrates a lot of leadership. They are called cheerLEADERS, right? QED.</p>

<p>;-)</p>

<p>^^^right! They have to get up in front of thousands of school and community members and lead the crowd in cheers and school spirit. It takes a certain personality to feel comfortable in front of a group and well, "leading."</p>