<p>
Sure they do. People use real estate agents and brokers to help find and negotiate a home purchase. Their fees are built into the price of the house. Some people use auto brokers to find and purchase cars for them. I am not referring to the car-buying services through AAA, Costco, etc (though in essence those services are also being paid for) but people do contract with individuals to find and buy cars for them.</p>
<p>“Its quite possible that the full pay families end up in worse financial shape than the need-based families”</p>
<p>except that as far I can tell, holding all other things equal (metro area, number of kids) thats just not true. If you have a higher income before COA, than you will have a higher income AFTER COA, despite need based FA. </p>
<p>There will be some people who are hurt by the formulas not reflecting special circumstances, of which a good example (and one that has been debated here) is metro area cost of living. I dont consider that kind of complaint in the same category as a generic “lower income people have it easier”.</p>
<p>Look, ISTR hearing about non-profit orgs with hard cutoffs for financial assistance. Those can leave someone with more income worse off (if its a significant expense) and can create really perverse incentives. College FA, at least at the typical schools, does not work that way. It is a percentage “tax” that leaves folks with more post COA $$ when they earn more income. A fortiori if their wage is above the FICA maximum.</p>
<p>Income is only one part of the formula, BBD. You are being very short-sighted. And COL is, as you know very different, so you really shouldn’t hold all equal, because they arent.</p>
<p>"People use real estate agents and brokers to help find and negotiate a home purchase. "</p>
<p>Thats for search help in general, and to NEGOTIATE a price down.</p>
<p>Its not like for a particular house, to buy it at list price, you need an agent. You don’t. </p>
<p>The better comparison would be to a place like NYC, where folks use paid brokers to get access to rent stabilized apts. Or even pay a bribe to the superintendent, IIUC. And that, of course, is precisely because the price is NOT a market clearing price. </p>
<p>With cars, I am not familiar with that, but I assume that is also help with search, and with negotiation. Not that you need assistance in showing the seller that you are, say, a good enough driver to get the most out of their car.</p>
<p>No, the home price is padded to cover the cost of the real estate agent. So they are spending money to pay for the privilege of researching, finding and buying the houses. Your circular logic is fallacious.</p>
<p>“Income is only one part of the formula, BBD.”</p>
<p>I didnt say it was not. How many times do I have to keep saying ceteris paribas? </p>
<p>" You are being very short-sighted.m And COL is, as you know very different, so you really shouldn’t hold all equal, because they arent. "</p>
<p>I have argued in support of the idea that it would be good if colleges could find some way to take COL into account (though I do not see their doing so as “obligation” or “entitlement”) </p>
<p>I am NOT arguing that FA formulas are perfect or cannot be improved. I am simply stating, that, in general, all other things being equal (which is what ceteris paribus means) its HARDER to afford college on a lower income than on a higher one.</p>
<p>At a grad school mixer one of the new PhD candidates came up to me and said, “Most people don’t like me. My problem is that I’m so smart and so pretty that people don’t know how to handle it.”</p>
<p>I wanted to laugh out loud. The perfect rejoinder came into my head, “Oh really? I hadn’t noticed.”</p>
<p>Now, forgive me, but I thought I was pretty darned smart and pretty myself, but I couldn’t help but hear the braggart’s comments as asserting that she was uniquely smart and pretty. And I’ll concede I have never been 5’8" with the perfect figure.</p>
<p>There are subtexts and resonances in so many of these posts, and it’s human nature to envy those with more and resent those folks whining about their lot.</p>
<p>Is this always fair or accurate? Certainly not.</p>
<p>Do jerks exist in affluent neighborhoods? Hm. Do bears s**t in the woods?</p>
<p>Do jerks exist in impoverished neighborhoods? See the above comment about bears.</p>
<p>People are jerks, and it hurts to see others have/get more. </p>
<p>Still, I have to admit my sympathies will usually go to the less advantaged person with FA than the more privileged person complaining about paying full pay.</p>
<p>It’s hard to sympathize when one would have loved to be in that category and able to pay fully. It’s no prize to see one’s children rejected from need sensitive schools with average stats much lower than theirs. It’s no picnic counting every penny (which I’m sure many full pay families do as well) to make each tuition payment or putting off every vacation and every home improvement. Part of this is because COL is so high in metro NY. But I’m not complaining. Really. My kids have the benefit of a college education from two wonderful institutions who are need-blind, one no loan for the window DS attends.</p>
<p>anothercrazymom: It is hard to hear about two houses, endless vacations, trips to all continents. It’s not fair to judge you or yours by them; I am sure your S is a very deserving fellow. Still, you have to understand how difficult it is for momma-three and others to hear you detail this. And no, you don’t have to apologize for your good fortune, just empathize with those who don’t have it.</p>
<p>I still think coal miners work harder than CEO’s so the idea that anyone “works hard for their wealth and is entitled to it” still rubs me the wrong way, not that anyone said that. I think it is an undertone of our still Puritan society.</p>
<p>Now I am going off to teach the CC students in my classes how to write an English sentence – a worthy, though not especially remunerative occupation. We are not even eligible for tuition exchange like many of our colleagues at privates. Still, I am so fortunate to see the smiles on my kids’ faces when their acceptances and FA awards came, the gratification of DD at graduation, and the continuing excitement of DS at all he is learning. Right now he is in a full semester course on ULYSSES, and my only complaint is that he will emerge knowing more about it than I. Sigh.</p>
<p>But isn’t that the way it’s supposed to work?</p>
<p>“No, the home price is padded to cover the cost of the real estate agent. So they are spending money to pay for the privilege of researching, finding and buying the houses. Your circular logic is fallacious.”</p>
<p>The commision goes to the sellers agent, who splits the amount with the buyers agent, if there is one. </p>
<p>And of course the agents commision is a fixed percentage of price, without regard to any other measure of desirability. As you would expect in a market with market clearing prices. </p>
<p>Its really not comparable to paying for SAT prep, say. Its more like paying the application fee, or for HS transcripts. which are costs to apply ANYWHERE. SAT prep, tutoring, etc are costs to get the PRIVILEGE of paying list price (generally) at PARTICULAR desirable schools. </p>
<p>Private college counselors I suppose could be seen either way. Folks DO use them for general search, and I presume they use them if and when they negotiate FA packages. Those uses ARE comparable to a RE broker. But my sense is that at least 70% of what folks get them for is to help spiff up applications, which is not.</p>
<p>If that is true and the profs are paid so little then why does it cost so much?</p>
<p>Colleges have to spend a fortune on facilities…on labs, on keeping things “state of the art,” for campus security, for new/improved buildings, etc.</p>
<p>BBD- Have you ever bought a home using an agent? The price of the house is inflated to cover the cost of the agent(s) so the buyer and seller are PAYING for these agents as the buyer is paying more and the seller is getting less. And when repairs need to be done after i the inspection, who do you think is expected to lower their take-home money-- the seller (or the buyer is expected to waive some of the repairs and ultimated pay for it themselves later). The Agents want their $$$ and often will not lower their commission to close the deal. </p>
<p>But you are just arguing for the sake of arguing and to steer way from your insulting cracks about fullpay families. Blech. Double blech.</p>
<p>Don’t know who the fullpay families are that have the multiple homes and take luxurious trips. Seems to me that there arent many of them around here, but people think there are more than really are. I suspect most of the fullpay people have worked just as hard and made just as many sacrifices as the need families. Why are we going over and over and over this?</p>
<p>*It was frustrating to me because I very much ran into what some of the earlier posters mentioned - deceptive college marketing practices and guidance counselors that were clueless about helping us find realistic choices that did not involve heavy debt. *</p>
<p>Very true…I remember when my brother and his son returned from visiting some top schools. They all made it sound like you didn’t need to worry about ability to pay because they give away millions each year in FA. They didn’t clarify that THEY get to decide your ability to pay…and they did believe that my brother’s ability to pay was higher than he felt comfortable with 4 younger children who still had to go to college.</p>
<p>And, GCs can be even worse. Many don’t consider cost/affordability at all when making college suggestions to students.</p>
<p>
I think a good many education and policy analysts believe we’re already on that road. The question is how much farther down it will we go.</p>
<p>
We do seem stuck, don’t we? I think because it’s human nature to believe that we deserve whatever good fortune comes our way, even when we’re grateful for it. Whereas bad fortune is something that’s visited upon us from the great beyond, out of the blue and for no discernible reason whatsoever. 
I mean that about the viewpoints on both extremes on this thread and all the gradations in the middle. (I certainly apply it to myself.) Makes it hard to see the other guy’s POV.</p>
<p>“BBD- Have you ever bought a home using an agent? The price of the house is inflated to cover the cost of the agent(s) so the buyer and seller are PAYING for these agents as the buyer is paying more and the seller is getting less.”</p>
<p>I did not mean to imply that the agents provide their labor for free. Of course someone has to pay for their services, and the buyer and seller, who presumably get the benefit of a better match, are naturally the ones to do so. What this has to do with SAT prep services, I am not sure.</p>
<p>“But you are just arguing for the sake of arguing and to steer way from your insulting cracks about fullpay families. Blech. Double blech.”</p>
<p>No, I am trying to explore the question of whether the full pay COA at the tippy top schools is a market clearing price. That is actually a slightly different discussion from the earlier one about the most “just” FA policies.</p>
<p>"Don’t know who the fullpay families are that have the multiple homes and take luxurious trips. "</p>
<p>You seem to have me confused with a different poster. Please point me to the post where I said anyting about multiple homes or luxorious trips.</p>
<p>anothercrazymom… I don’t know you so how could I possibly dislike you? You made a comment and I replied but in no way was I showing distain for you or your lifestyle. I lived well so I am not a stranger to good fortune but as I said life happens and sometimes we need to change course. I am not envious of anyone because most of my dreams have been fulfilled. We have had some difficult times but for the most part we have emerged better than before. I have been fortunate for the most part with my children…some great moments and some low times but again overall I can’t complain. Everybody regardless of their financial circumstances have their own personal ups and downs…that is life. Why you thought I was talking to you I don’t know. I am talking to anyone who will listen so that the next time they hear of that kid in their childs class that made it into X school who comes from this family or that family, wish them well, and know that there are many paths that go to the same place. My family was proof of that and we are not poor we just had four kids in school at the same time. Our tuition rises every year and we are paying more than what most pay for one kid to attend full pay. We do not make alot of money but we have been careful. We are more careful about what we think and say. The years and our experiences have taught me to be more empathetic and non judgemental of others. I just see that even on this forum there are many who forget that on the other side of their computer there is a person reading and sometimes the posts can be downright hurtful.</p>
<p>
I wasn’t talking to you specifically in my comments, BBD. I was sharing my thoughts about several comments/posts. Additionally, you said
and I responded, with explanation about the cost of using real estate agents. You digressed to talking about SAT tutors and such, no one else did that.</p>
<p>"Do people spend money for the privilege of being allowed to buy a particuylar car or house? </p>
<p>and I responded, with explanation about the cost of using real estate agents. You digressed to talking about SAT tutors and such, no one else did that"</p>
<p>if you go back to that post, you will see that was stated in contrast to the way people make substantial expenditures to gain admission to specific elite colleges - expenditures not necessary for other colleges, or for general search - a behavior that does not make sense if the college COAs represent a market clearing price. I was following up to Erikaatbucknells excellent post. I am sorry if I did not make that clear.</p>
<p>"You seem to have me confused with a different poster. Please point me to the post where I said anyting about multiple homes or luxorious trips. "</p>
<p>“I wasn’t talking to you specifically in my comments, BBD. I was sharing my thoughts about several comments/posts”</p>
<p>Oh, I see. I got the wrong impression from your post, I thought that was addressed to me. I am sorry I didnt read your post correctly.</p>
<p>You are still confusing the points, BBD. You asked ME what MY comments about using real estate agents had to do with SAT tutors. I never spoke about SAT tutors, so my comments about real estate agents would have nothing to do with SAT tutors. They were in response to your question about whether people spend $$ for the privilege of buying a car or house. The simple answer is YES THEY DO.</p>
<p>Frazzled’s post #695 is well said. No one here knows anyone else’s circumstances or what it is about our personal life experiences that peppers our opinions or thoughts about any particular topic. Our family happens to be very committed to community service and volunteerism. We have donated countless hours, money, items, etc to those less fortunate. We are happy to do so and consider it a blessing. But when some person feels they are entitled to what we give them, that turns my stomach. We went to see a show a few months back. Some street guy was busily trying to “help” people park and was hustling them for money. MY DH, the softie that he is, gave the guy $2. The guy peered into my DH’s wallet as he was pulling out the $2 and said “I see another dollar in there”. My husband said something like “well yes you do, but this is what I am giving you”. The unmitigated gall of that guy. Now maybe that isn’t a great analogy, and I am no fan of giving $ to homeless people on the street (I prefer organized charity and working in the homeless shelters directly) but that struck me as entitled. He saw another $, he thought he was entitled to it. Um, no. </p>
<p>I hope that everyone’s kids get to go the the best schools they can. And I hate that many schools gap families so that they cannot afford tuition without big loans. But business is business. Higher education is a business. Why pretend it is anything else?</p>
<p>momma-three – I appreciate your first post this morning. Thank you for clarifying your perspective. Maybe I’m being too sensitive, but some of the things you say, or perhaps the way you say them, do come across as having disdain for those whose families are full pay. In your last post you say
Yet you speak very negatively about the people you live near and seem to generalize your local experience to all full pay/upper income people. I don’t know where you live, but if I lived near the people you speak of in your neighborhood, I would move. They are not a reflection of the full pay families I know.</p>