declined from conservatories...devestated

<p>thanks for the clarification on certificates, fiddlestix and violadad - i was speaking from a strictly academic perspective, not a musical one.</p>

<p>violadad --</p>

<p>A little more about the "performer's certificate". I don't know about other schools, but at Indiana U - Jacobs School, it is treated somewhat differently from what you describe. The standards for audition are significantly higher than for the B.M. diploma requiring a recital-like performance. To receive the diploma, a recital is required and it is judged at the level of a MM. It takes one year to achieve and is used in two ways:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Some students go in for it out of high school. They are already playing at a very high level and often go in to study with one of the preeminent professors on their instrument - sort of "passing through" on their way to an early career. They are required to participate in ensembles (orchestra and chamber), but they are exempted from all the liberal arts requirements and from most of the academic music requirements. I don't know how many students pass through this way, but more than a few.</p></li>
<li><p>Some advanced BM students switch to the performer's degree midstream or do it in conjunction with their BM.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Once achieved, it is considered the equivalent of a Masters in performance (distinguishable from an academic Masters), whereas the "Artist's diploma" is considered to begin at the Master's level and go beyond. In either case, there is quite a lot of prestige attached.</p>

<p>The important difference is that both of these degrees allow the student many hours of practise free from academic constraints. This is a plus for some, but a minus for those who might eventually be interested in teaching, etc.</p>

<p>stringfollies, thanks for the clarification on IU/Jacob's specifics.</p>

<p>It reinforces the disparity in program names, as well as the criteria. The devil is in the details and you have to dig into each to find the info in comparing equivalents. The nomenclature I used was from my knowledge of about two dozen programs. Unfortunately, Jacobs was not among them.</p>

<p>It leaves even those of us that think we know what we're talking about scratching our heads. :confused:</p>

<p>Again, a warning to all. Just because you see it on an internet forum, confirm it with your own research.</p>

<p>Stringfollies has it right re Indiana! I know several students currently in or who have completed the Artist's Diploma (pre-BM) from IU. All I can say about their playing (especially out of such young players) is - WOW! And, as Stringfollies suggests, they entered the program for the teachers they wanted to study with without undue academic demands in addition to applied study.</p>

<p>I've known other players completing similar certificate programs at other schools, NEC, Juiliiard, etc, both before and after a MM. The key in all cases is not where in the degree sequence the certificate is falling, but in the quality of the playing that allows the student into the certificate program in the first place.</p>

<p>It may be IU's website - or perhaps another school's - that indicates that acceptance level playing for one of these non-degree certificates is the ability to compete on an international competition level. I believe it's Colburn's or perhaps Juiliird that indcates such programs are appropriate for those with professional careers and limited time. I have never heard of a Performer's Certificate, Artist's Diploma, Professional Studies Certificate, or what-ever-else the institution terms it described as a technical degree.</p>

<p>Again, don't know the requirements for other than classical folks!</p>

<p>wow i did not know there was so much to the performance certificate!..or at least different opinions or understandings on them, to me i thouhgt it was just specialized training for people with who have their bachelor's in any program, not just music!</p>

<p>but i know this will be at least a few years from now but does anyone know if the masters in music usually designed for people who want to teach privately or at the undergraduate level?</p>

<p>thanks</p>

<p>Private teachers come from all walks of life. Some have degrees, even advanced degrees, and some do not. The only thing required of a private teacher is the ability to attract and retain students. If you can do that, you could set up shop tomorrow with no degree at all.</p>

<p>College teachers come in several varieties. The ones who are professors (full, associate or assistant) in a more academic area like music history or music theory almost always have some sort of doctoral level degree. The ones who frequently teach undergrad music history and theory, at least to freshmen and sophomores, are frequently grad students working toward a Master's degree or a doctorate. Some schools have faculty members teaching those courses. Applied music teachers can vary all over the lot depending on the school. Some schools will not require a degree from a well-known artist who has lots of connections in the industry and will bring in a steady stream of applicants. Others pay more attention to academic pedigrees and may be looking for teachers with a graduate degree. Some schools that are not particularly known for their music departments may be willing to hire adjuncts with any sort of bachelor's degree, so long as they play or sing reasonably well, show up for all of their lessons and generate sufficient demand among the students for what they teach.</p>

<p>You may be thinking of graduate programs in Music Education that eventually lead to a Master's degree of some sort plus a state license to teach music. Those programs are mostly for those who want to teach in public schools for grades K-12.</p>

<p>I'm just catching up on this thread, but Djalabingo raised some important issues in his original post; fears about not being "good enough"...In fact, it seems that there are very VERY few openings at most schools these days, and it's helpful to find out from the start how many spots are available in a given school (and studio) . That information can really put things into perspective: if there are only two slots (as is the case for flute at a number of schools this year) and if the spots are open to all (grad and undergrad) then it is really not surprising that the pre-screenings are especially tough. Knowing this in advance could help enourage applying to a broader range of schools.</p>

<p>nycm, I think you are absolutely correct about the value of understanding the number of openings at a school for each studio (instrument). Unfortunately, we found most schools did not want to release this information. Sometimes, this information was available via the rumor mills, but not always. I know my D wasted one audition because there were no openings for her instrument (well, actually there was one but that went to a current student of the studio head). I am not sure why you believe there are very very few openings these days. I am not aware of any conservatories or music schools cutting back on the number of students. In fact, financial considerations motivate schools to operate at capacity. Another big issue has always been for the individual student to try to pick schools where their skill level will be appropriate and competitive. This is sometimes tough even for academics where SATs and grades can help. For music it is often very difficult. Sometimes music teachers can help, but unfortunately many just don't have a clue. With all the applause and positive reinforcement we give kids, it is easy to be mislead.</p>

<p>"With all the applause and positive reinforcement we give kids, it is easy to be mislead."</p>

<p>edad - I agree with this; however, as a parent who is somewhat new to the game (and the mother of a jazzer at that), I have found myself stumbling through most of this process. I never imagined that the 13 years my son has spent getting ready for his next step would essentially be decided by 15 minutes in an audition room. He attends a large public school where the guidance counselors have 175 or so kids to shepherd through the process. Few students, if any, apply to music schools, so there isn't a trail of breadcrumbs to follow. Sure wish I had found CC about three years ago!</p>

<p>And to djalabingo, I just want to say hang in there and keep trying.</p>

<p>The issue of the 15 minute audition is always a concern - partly because it is so stressful. There are cases where the audition is just not going to work. Colds, flu and other illnesses could qualify. In spite of often firm sounding policies, I believe most schools will make accommodations and schedule alternate times for exceptional cases. For the vast majority, I believe the 15 min audition does work very well. Usually one musician can evaluate another musician playing the same instrument in a very short time. The 15 minute audition is probably way more time than is needed. In fact often the actual playing is a fraction of the audition time.</p>

<p>I would certainly agree that the typical guidance counselor is not going to be helpful when applying to music schools. A very important step is for the student to gain some understanding of how their skills rank on a national level. The typical HS music teacher is not likely to be helpful. My D was lucky enough to take precollege classes at a conservatory. That can be a humbling experience. She was able to pretty accurately predict how she would rank in auditions at different music schools and conservatories. Failing at the audition tape level is usually a sign that the student does not have an accuate self assessment or they were applying just to see.</p>

<p>Following on the above, thank goodness for CC. My son attends a tiny public high school with great college counseling--but no knowledge of the arts. Fortunately, a friend recommended CC to me a couple of years ago, and I would not have known anything about this process without all of you. Moreover--and very importantly--I don't have a peer music parent in real life to compare notes, vent, anguish (thanks, again, Allmusic!) and ask for advice. The support and advice I've gotten here has been amazing. And, as I am the head parent volunteer in our college center, I hope to pay it forward to others arts-loving kids at our school in the future.</p>

<p>Even high schools with very strong performing arts/music departments (like ours) are clueless when it comes to conservatory/music school admissions. We got very well-meaning (but totally wrong) advice from my son's GC, who thought Naviance might give us some information. Ah. No. Test scores do not indicate who will be admitted to music programs.</p>

<p>And my payback, for the massive help I have gotten here in the past (Spelmom and Mom55 , in particular, were terrifically helpful to me, since their sons had been through jazz admissions before mine) is to offer the same to whomever I can. I am delighted to an ear or shoulder (or eye!) for SJ and anyone else!</p>

<p>Add me to the "very grateful and ready to helps others" list! I was completely lost when I found this forum in September 2007. You all helped me to help my son find his way.</p>

<p>I also think that it is important to remember that it is not always the end of the road. Son has a friend from high school who was a fine violinist but not really conservatory material. He did not even think about auditioning at that level. He did receive a music scholarship to our state flagship and attended with double majors in music and computer science. But he found the music too compelling. At the end of sophmore year, he dropped the CS major and moved from the BA program in music to the BM degree program in violin performance. He worked very hard and spent an extra year at the undergrad level. He is now finishing his MM at Rice in violin performance and be auditioning for orchestra positions this spring. </p>

<p>Overall, he had excellent training as a youngster, but not the drive to really go to the next level. Once he did, he had to work very hard to get to the next level, but he found a way to do it. This is not going to be true for every student, but I guess I want people to realize that it is possible sometimes.</p>

<p>Count me also among those who have come here for advice and sometimes sympathy. As my son gets further away from his college studies, I suspect my "help" will be less helpful as the landscape of music auditions and schools change. </p>

<p>But there is still DD, the non-major...</p>

<p>It is very disappointing when one does not make it past the pre-screening however you must have perspective. A school may receive upwards of 1000 pre-screening CDs for each instrument or voice type. Out of the 1000 CD's they will audition perhaps 120 for a class of 20 or so or frequently less, depending on instrument or voice types. For example if no flutes are graduating then they will certainly not be looking to add flutes. For a class of 20 vocal students broken down into 4 voice types, you are looking at perhaps 5 soprano admits or 5 tenor admits for that year. For conservatory admissions you are not only competing against students musicians from the US, but worldwide. For my daughter's regional Oberlin audition in NY, there was a prospective composition major that had flown in from Venezuela and of course they do audition in Asia as well. It is always good to have some non-CD prescreening schools. The SUNY schools are good options and I would add Fredonia to that group unless too late to do so.</p>

<p>Don't forget that SUNY Purchase pre-screens and is just as competitive as the rest of the top level conservatories. Perhaps the other SUNYs are less competitive.</p>

<p>It's so important to have a range of schools.</p>

<p>Dj, it is wise to have an audition coach to help you through the process. You need to find someone who is familiar with the process and can help you pick the materials for your cd and introduce you to the right person to record you. My son naively did his own cd with a friend with dj equipment and thought he sounded just fine. When his voice teacher found out, she immediately insisted that he schedule a session with a professional who does these cds all of the time. She listened to his first cd, made suggestions. What a difference in quality.</p>

<p>Purchase is trying very hard to be among one of the top schools.
It still has a lot of kinks to work out. I was a student there so I would be a good person to ask any questions.
PM me if you have any questions!</p>