<p>As much as the physical separation of income, assets, and payment of bills seems like a good psychological measure for building a sense of self, in most states all assets become joint property in legal matters, so all separating of assets does is separates the administration of the assets. If it helps in marital decision making (a predetermined power structure based upon acccount balances?), I guess it works. Ultimately, couples have to agree on financial objectives and the behaviors necessary to achieve them. Come divorce (absent pre-nup) time, most states divvy up the stuff (assets and debts) on a predetermined basis, so that negotiated separation of monies that substitutes for a living shared repsonsibility for shared assets (and liabilities) doesn’t really achieve much in community property states.</p>
<p>I do laud you encouragement to your daughter to be independent. I have done the same for mine as well, as life has too many pitfalls to be an adult dependent upon someone else. However, if one is going to truly share their life entirely with someone else, finances will follow regardless of how we do the accounting during the relationship.</p>
<p>*Why not keep the house in one person’s name, if the other spouse is able to accumulate savings in another way? *</p>
<p>Because in MANY states, if community property money (job earnings) is used to pay the mortgage, then that asset (the home) is jointly shared and would be split if a divorce happens. (Think about it, there are couples where the wife has never earned any money…would that home be HIS??? NO!!! ) The income is community and when it was used to pay for the home (even if it’s only in his name) it’s a shared asset. </p>
<p>If the home is purchased before the marriage, a value is determined at that point, (say $200k) and any later increased equity is equally shared if a divorce later happens. </p>
<p>In community property states, you can’t purchase/pay for something out of your earnings and expect it to be solely yours…even if your spouse squanders his/her earnings on whatever. </p>
<p>The only way to avoid that in community property states is to solely pay for that home out of non-community property money (inheritance money for instance) that has NEVER been mingled with community property money. That would also mean that all costs of upkeep of the home must also be paid with non-community property money (that’s hard when a family is actually living in the home.). The other spouse can claim that he/she helped with the upkeep.</p>
<p>It’s easier to with investment property. That came up during the presidential election. Cindy McCain owns investment property purchased from her inheritance. The McCain money is not mingled with her investments.</p>
<p>*This one falls under the “for richer or for POORER” clause.</p>
<p>You married her and her debt, so you start in the “poorer” part of this clause. </p>
<p>I married a woman with a load of credit card debt. Knew it going in and paid it off within 30 days of the ceremony. Put a big ding in our (key word here is our) savings. Been rebuilding our wealth (key word again is our) ever since.</p>
<p>And the woman I married has developed long term health issues. I married them along with her. That one falls under the “in sickness and in health” clause. I plan to be there to help with those as time goes along as well, even though it won’t get any better. </p>
<p>Just part of the bargain. You may have a plan of buying a house, etc., but “we” are not divisible in marraige. You don’t get to choose which part of the spouse to keep and which part to set aside. The college debt does not go away, therefore it is YOURS (in the plural possessive sense of the word). You may as well start making the payments. *</p>
<p>This is a man who understands that he’s married.</p>
<p>Ok, this post got much more deep than I was expecting it. All I wanted to know is whether or not if a spouse’s school loan goes unpaid, is the other spouse legally liable for the debt as well. </p>
<p>Maybe some of my statements were misleading and made it seem like I don’t know what marriage is about, but that is far from the truth. I believe in every single part of the marriage vows that I swore to uphold. I knew I was taking on some heavy burdens from the beginning.</p>
<p>I have no intention on letting any of our debts go into default. I was just trying to find out what would happen if that were the case. </p>
<p>She had been attending school until recently (in-school deferment) and then was unemployed (lender agreed to extend deferment for a while longer). Sometime this year the deferment will end and we will start making payments. </p>
<p>Expenses, hers vs. mine: My income pays for my school loans, both of our cars, the rent, all utilities, food, medical bills, car repairs, etc. After those expenses I can’t afford to pay hundreds of dollars per month for daycare. So when she decided she wanted to work full-time I told her that her paycheck would have to pay for the daycare. I don’t see any problem with that.</p>
<p>The reality is that if money was the number one priority I should have waited many years to get married. After I got married I had to take on the burden of thousands of dollars in medical bills for her and my child, tons of car repairs, commuting long distances to work so she could have shorter commutes, etc. While these debts would not exist without the marriage I have never once thought that I would be better off single. Should I have waited longer to get married? I don’t know. I decided to get married sooner rather than later and build our life together instead of waiting until we both had careers. It comes with its blessing and burdens and I accept them all as part of the package.</p>
<p>Goaliedad and Mom2, I find your information about the rules of communal property very interesting. Do a lot of states besides California work this way? I thought MA worked differently, but I’m not sure as I’ve lived out of the country my entire adult life. I remember a financial advisor there once saying, though, she absolutely believed in separate property ownership because if one spouse got sued, all joint property would be at risk. </p>
<p>In the country where I live, there are two options for handling marital finances. Either communal (default) or you can opt to sign a standard agreement for separate assets. Which means all your wealth/liabilities are handled indiviually, (you can switch from the first to the latter by divvying up communal assets equally when you sign a paper). Of course, you can still have as much as you want in joint accounts for mutual expenditures. If there is a divorce, this arrangement facilitates the financial aspect, but it also protects the family because if one spouse gets into financial trouble, the others’ assets are safe. </p>
<p>In any case, financial independence is one reason I have told my daughters I wish they would never get legally married. If it were up to me, they’d live in sin their entire lives, even if (hopefully) they found their soul mates for a life-long relationship. Of course, I know they may feel differently, when the time comes.</p>
<p>OP, I didn’t see your last post til after I wrote mine. Sorry that we went off on a tangent but this has opened up an interesting discussion on communal property and liability. I admire you for taking on so much responsibility so young and doing the right thing. I think you are right in questioning the legal implications of your wife defaulting on her loans even if that is not your intention or plan. I hope someone can answer that specific question, but it might depend on the state in which you live.</p>
<p>OP, to answer your original question, spouses can generally petition the IRS to receive their portion of tax refunds. I know this applies to liens for child support, unpaid taxes, etc. and it’s called something like spousal relief. Suggest you search irs.gov for specifics - I believe it’s a fairly simple matter like filing a form with the return.</p>
<p>goaliedad…You could not have said it better.</p>
<p>The OP is a married man with a family, and it is frightening how much he sounds like he has one foot out the door. </p>
<p>Seven years ago my husband and I (with four children) faced the most difficult financial time in our marraige. He lost his job and was unable to find employment in the same field. We knew that the company was planning to relocate to another state and we made the decision to stay here for medical reasons. During that period while he was still working, I took my very small business and began to expand. He helped me every step of the way and eventually when the day came, and he was unemployed, he was able to join me in the business that he helped me to grow. It has been very challenging, and there have been times when we did not know how we were going to make it work. Our children were all very much aware of our financial situation, and they were a big help in spreading the word to everyone they knew that mom and dad had this service to offer. Neither husband or I had parents that could help us financially, and we never really even thought to ask. We knew that it was our situation and a quick bandaid of money from someone else would not help in the long term. We also took on the responsibility of caring for two seperate family members during this time, his father and my sister. We were not only financially strapped, but we were tight for physical space. Our children learned to work early on, and they have each taken on loans for their education. This is what families do when you want something to work. There are no easy ways out of a situation, and for the OP to consider his wifes debt hers alone, sounds like he is not invested in the marraige.
Marraige is not only about playing house and making love, it is for better or worse and richer or poorer. You can choose to keep your marraige poor or get those loans paid off and start making a future. The scamming is not a positive thing for your marraige, and neither is the “mine” and “hers” attitude. We have been married for 27 years and experienced all of the scenarios that we pledged in our vows. You have taken vows, and should consider what those vows mean. As goaliedad said, “you do not get to pick and choose”.</p>
<p>I agree that the OP is not necessarily trying to shirk his responsibilities as a spouse, but rather is just trying to assess the ramifications if his wife can’t pay her loans on time and if that will reflect on him. </p>
<p>Houses generally can be one to buy but if married, it takes two to sell. I also know that most lenders are pretty good about making payments reasonable for college loans for those with good credit. But tempt fate and go into any kind of warning/grace period too often and those options become far less flexible.</p>
<p>Also, while you may have the better income and credit, etc, some mortgage lenders (especially in this market) run both spouses when it comes to the real estate market.</p>
<p>Momma-three, it bothers me that you are defining marriage with your standards for everybody. I, too, have been married nearly as long, 25 years, and I can tell you part of my attitude about wanting my own daughters to be financially independent in any kind of commitment they make stems from personal experience. It is fine that whatever vows you took (in a religious marriage perhaps) reflect certain values and a framework that you believe should be the basis of a good marriage. But, please, acknowledge that there can be different attitudes and “rules” for different people. With nearly half of all marriages ending in divorce, a little pragmatism in planning can save on possible headache and heartache down the line.</p>
<p>^^^
I am sorry that you are bothered but I think it takes alot to make a marriage work. It is not always easy, and financial matters add to the stress. I too want my daughter to be independent financially but my definition of that does not necessarily mean keeping finances seperate in a marraige.</p>
<p>Is it possible that all marraiges end in divorce because we have become such a “me” centered society? I don’t know the answer but I think once you marry and have a child the loans become the husbands loans too. To keep this seperate attitude going only sounds like trouble down the road.</p>
<p>Just to offer a counterpoint to the idea that this is “stupid”, I’ll say that I agree with that advice. The key word is “perfect.” </p>
<p>We married very young and took on debt to get to parenthood. On paper, the whole thing looks like a disaster.</p>
<p>But we knew ourselves and we had a plan that reflected our reality. 20 years later I can look back and say we were right to gamble on ourselves. Our plan didn’t involve any magical thinking, just a lot of hardwork and prioritizing. For example, we decided to have the kid first, then save up for a house. Living in base housing or renting for ten years worked out fine. </p>
<p>Money is but one resource. Each person, and each couple, has to figure out their priorities and how to use their resources.</p>
<p>There will never be a “perfect” time to get married and have kids, but there are “better” times. LOL</p>
<p>And, I agree with Goalie dad and Momma_three. Having been married for 25 years, I know that the “his and hers” philosophy doesn’t work well when couples are young. It can be different in second marriages when various “baggage” requires such.</p>
<p>My H and I both come from large families. Divorce is almost unheard of in our extended families. Parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, siblings - all married forever. Yes, we’re Catholic and that probably has something to do with that. None of us would have ever approached our marriages with the “this is mine” - “this is yours” attitude. Sounds like roommates. </p>
<p>I don’t think the OP has been responsible in his approach. Just the mere mention that his wife has to pay for the childcare and therefore she wouldn’t have anything left to pay for her loans. Why isn’t HE paying for the childcare, so that she could use THAT money towards her loans? </p>
<p>The problem with “keeping everything separate” is that it breeds an attitude of “who’s slacking and who’s doing more than his/her share”. If each is supposed to pay their own way equally, then it becomes a big argument about who is doing more chores or more laundry or more childcare. My H has always earned a LOT more than me, but I do all the home stuff and did all the child-rearing - because he works about 60 hours per week and travels a lot. Why shouldn’t I have equal access to his income? If I didn’t, I would be demanding that he do his share around the house during his limited off-work hours.</p>
<p>Okay, I’ll give my ideal for financial organization. I know this would not work for everybody or maybe even most, but it has really worked for us–enough for me to strongly encourage my children to follow suit.</p>
<p>I believe each partner should contribute to the family (a joint account, maybe) according to ability, something like each giving the same percentage of their income to the whole, and the remainder is kept for personal savings or expenditure. If one spouse stays at home with the kids, obviously the other is paying all for maintenance, but after that there would have to be discussion and agreement on how savings were handled. </p>
<p>My husband built up a business that was worth a small fortune for awhile, I never expected or wanted a part of it (and it was offered), just as I didn’t want any of the liabilities when it went bust. I’ve also always kept my own moderate inherited assets to myself, which is now why I’m in a position to pay for my kids’ education, thankfully, as my husband could not afford to. </p>
<p>My husband is a risk-taker, generous to a fault, but a spendthrift. I’m frugal and conservative money-wise. Our marriage would not have lasted this long if we weren’t each in control of our own asset management.</p>
<p>It’s common knowledge, I believe, that the biggest factor in marriage failure is money issues. That’s why they say expectations and philosophy should be discussed ahead of time. Unfortunately, too many couples find out too late that they’re not on the same page.</p>
<p>Didn’t I just say that after all of the other bills in the household are paid for, I don’t have enough money leftover to pay for daycare? So when she got a full-time job that supplemental income she provided paid for the daycare expenses. What is wrong with that? </p>
<p>The folks on this forum have turned a simple question into a big argument about whether or not I know what marriage is about, and I think that is a little extreme. I didn’t imagine that my question would start such as huge debate. I understand that her debt and my debt (debts that we accumulated prior to our marriage) are now considered family debt. </p>
<p>Even though I have a lot of debt: good (school loans), bad (car loans, credit cards), and “life happens” debt (medical debt due to illness), my wife and I are at least trying to work together but our priorities are different. I understood things would be very tight for us early on, so I wanted to focus on making things good for the future. My wife prefers looking at things on a monthly basis. She would rather make a minimum payment on a credit card so she could have more money to buy a new cell phone.</p>