<p>You just have to look at Valdez's situation and it becomes clear. ED should be abolished. Not because Valdez might not go through with it, but because a majority of students don't have the money to apply ED. How can a system where most students in this country can't participate be fair? It isn't. I have no sympathy for a school like Princeton--Princeton can fill its class easily without ED.</p>
<p>dstark, I think you're missing a major point. The only kids who can not participate in ED are those whose parents don't want to pay their EFC. This is not an ED problem, it's a parent priority problem.</p>
<p>Valdez, to be practical, if you study engineering at Princeton then you will be on a track to get a pretty darn high starting salary versus those graduating with most 4 or 5 year degrees. You will be able to pay your loans off and it should really, truly, be ok. There is typically a post-college residual halo effect that will prevent you from worrying unduly about the wolf at the door - you will have the wind at your back, the forward energy of launching your own life, adjusting to the working world, learning your profession, perhaps considering marriage, and the loan repayments will be just another bill in the mix - trivial. </p>
<p>On the other hand, while I think NorthStarMom, with all due respect, seems to be a little harsh here, based on her choice for moral rectitude in a similar situation, I can see merit in both sides of this argument - the sanctity of the contract is a societal imperative and as such you have entered into a binding agreement that should be honored. But the universities, as institutions, are also "THE MAN" - in that they set up their admissions systems to benefit themselves - to maximize their own choices, not yours - and they hold virtually all of the power in the admissions process. If your inner being feels like the Runaway Bride, you should not allow the shotgun of ED to influence you to lock the collar of "trapped for life!" around your neck.</p>
<p>Another matter, which as an out-and-out liberal I feel I should mention, is: If your politics are red-red-red, then you will feel perfectly at home at Texas A&M - heck, you could even apply to be an engineer for the CIA, just by walking across the street. If not, you will definitely experience a greater variety of points of view at Princeton, even though by reputation, it is relatively conservative compared to Yale and especially to Harvard. So there is another personal factor in the decision - choosing what perspectives you wish to be exposed to, and placing yourself in the company of those who are most likely to either support your current views or offer alternative views.</p>
<p>As for the distance from home - pshaw! Peter Pan - "I am youth, I am joy, I am freedom!" This is the time in your life for adventure, even for an engineering student. ;)</p>
<p>How can anyone question Northstarmom here, don't kids believe in honor anymore?</p>
<p>I have to agree with Northstarmom here. I have tried to raise my 3 children with certain values, and honesty and commitment are way up there. The ED application is very clear in its statement of purpose, and students should not apply ED if they would like to compare financial offers. Of course, wouldn't we all like to apply ED, with the higher acceptance rate, and then apply to 5 more schools, and see who will "pay us" the most to attend.
Doesn't the ED form also require parent signatures? What do your parents have to say about it?
I see this as a blatant disregard for rules, and fairplay. As an ED acceptee you have taken a valuable spot from a more deserving candidate who understood the rules and applied RD.</p>
<p>I would love to send my kids to Princeton for $19000 a year, which is your offer.</p>
<p>Someone raised a good point that I've never mentioned. Prior to my acceptance at Princeton, A&M (which retails at about $18K) had not said anything about money--I knew that I would be eligible for like two scholarships totaling $6K...but that's not enough for me to choose A&M over Princeton. Only until after the winter holidays--and after my acceptance--did the provost plop down $24K on the table and promise me the stars. Mind you, these are scholarships I had never been aware of. It's money that comes from funds most people have never heard of. Obviously, that's when my problem started (I had even filled out the ED confirmation card, buit had not yet placed it in the mail).</p>
<p>So, contrary to what I guess is popular belief, I didn't apply to Princeton ED to "optimize" my college options. I applied there b/c that's where I want to go. It's pricy and I have a very attractive alternative which is making me have serious second thoughts. And Princeton knows about my situation--I told them over the phone.</p>
<p>...and, due to my academic credentials, I'm an automatic admit @ A&M</p>
<p>...and my parents want me to go to A&M b/c I will be close to home and it will be cheap (I ask you do not call my parents "dishonorable" b/c they are the two most wise and caring adults I have ever met--and I don't think it's a coincidence that the professor from Princeton said absolutely the same thing)</p>
<p>Valdez, I'm going to take your side here. I think you applied ED in good faith, and you have gone to Princeton about your dilemma. I assume you have also told the Head Aggie about your ED commitment to Princeton.
That said, as a Texas resident myself, I can not even imagine choosing A&M over Princeton, unless you are sure you want to be an engineer in Texas. I think highly of A&M, don't get me wrong, but this is a great opportunity for you to get out of Texas and experience a whole new level of academics and social interaction.</p>
<p>Princeton ED results were out on Dec.15 approximately, and Texas A&M offered you $24000 after winter break, that is after Jan.3. Ummmm.........</p>
<p>both of those are correct statements. you get a gold star for reading comprehension.</p>
<p>Valdez, go to Texas and let someone who really wants it have your place at Princeton. I don't think you appreciate what has be offered you.</p>
<p>I agree that we need to separate the issues here. First, what is your moral obligation once you have applied ED? Well, I think it's considerably less than some of the other posters do. All ED agreements have some opt-out for financial situations. If you decided you wanted to take the free ride at TAMU, you would simply explain the situation to Princeton and ask to be released from your ED agreement with them. If they say yes, you have no moral dilemma at all. (and frankly, I can't imagine them saying "no, you have to come here and spend $20 a year because you signed"). College ED is hardly the same level of "binding" as, say, enlisting in the Army or selling your soul to the devil.</p>
<p>I wouldn't worry too much about people who are acting ****ed off on the CC Princeton board. How many people who post there are actually going to end up at P'ton? 10? 20? There are something like 800 freshman, most of whom have never heard of CC. And the ones who have will have much more on their mind as entering freshman than figuring out who you are and snubbing you.</p>
<p>Next issue, which college to choose? It sounds like you got <em>some</em> financial aid from Princeton. Can your family afford for you to go? What do your parents say about their willingness to take on the financial burden? I agree with the person who told you that the education is the same, but only as far as the quality of things like profs, buildings, and textbooks. What is NOT the same, is the quality of the other students. I personally think that your peers are the most important part of the college experience. I would choose P'ton. The $80 it will end up costing will seem inconsequential to you in 20 years. And you can always pay your parents back once you are working.</p>
<p>Good luck!</p>
<p>Okay, here's another vote. I agree the behavior is dishonorable, but it sounds like he really wants to protect his wallet and would be happy at T A&M, so he should go there. It opens up a space in Princeton for someone else. I'm taking this stance because I wonder whether a student who is leaving his dog and girlfriend, in other words, is having buyer's remorse, would last at Princeton. If he doesn't accept the A&M offer now, I imagine it wouldn't be available to him as a transfer student. I think he just really wanted to know if he could get into Princeton, but is not ready to go that far from home. He may regret it in the future, or tell everyone he was accepted to Princeton, but my crystal ball says he wouldn't work out there. He's not determined to be there. His "bad" behavior is an opportunity for someone else.</p>
<p>kirmum, I disagree with you. Most middle class families need to know upfront what their costs are befrore choosing a school. Many people think they can pay the EFC and then reality hits. Job security, health care costs, retirement costs, paying for aged parents, paying for other siblings, these issues start to rise to the surface. Families don't know what they are getting into, Princeton knows what it is getting into. There isn't a level playing field here. Your 9:48 comment is uncalled for. He told Princeton the situation and guess what, they didn't withdraw their offer.</p>
<p>Very amusing Valdez, for you to be handing out "Reading Comprehension" Gold stars.
I agree with kirmum, go to A&M.</p>
<p>I thought that the parents here might be interested in some things Valdez said on the Princeton board.
"another thing that unsettled me was that when i called the fin. aid office, they explicitly said the ED idea was meant for me not to get any financial aid offers to consider alternatives. that made me feel like princeton is not looking out for my best interests.."</p>
<p>" i know that this board is based upon glorifying princeton--and thats why im getting such a bad rap for thinking outside the box and wondering "what if i stayed and ended up with a free college education?" and i have a secret: students make the school and not the other way around."</p>
<p>"and just to update those interested: i have written to the financial aid office expressing my concerns. i am doing everything in my power to attend this university. its not easy for me to sit here and say "i dont want to attend my first choice"...but when my family's finances are placed in jeopardy (we've never taken out a loan except for on the house)"</p>
<p>"i'd rather not go to college than deplete my parents' savings (which i understand they have worked several decades to accumulate and provide me with an amazing life)"</p>
<p>"i started this post to see what people had to say as to what was the better option: going to an elite university with a fat price tag, or humbling myself by attending my state university for free....contracts, promises, and everything of that nature aside. the main question was is the money i will pay going to princeton an inversion or a waste? can i go to a less-famous school for free and be just as successful in life? that was meant to be the main topic"</p>
<p>and this wonderfully telling quote:
"as for my knowledge of fin. aid...i worked @ the fin. aid office @ Texas A&M...so i know a thing or two about financial aid at most institutions (unfortunately, not including princeton!)"</p>
<p>It's clear that Princeton's binding ED system combined with generous financial aid works well. It welcomes low income, highly motivated students of good character while it repels students whom Princeton erroneously accepted after misjudging their characters.</p>
<p>Only Valdez understands his financial position. People on this board don't understand his financial position. Valdez, you need to talk to your parents and see if they can really afford Princeton</p>
<p>Can your family afford for you to go? What do your parents say about their willingness to take on the financial burden?</p>
<p>Isn't this now more like closing the barn door after the cow has left? At what point did these issues suddenly trigger a light bulb moment. The conversation with his parents should have happened before he applied to a school under a process that states if you are admitted you will attend. </p>
<p>His financial situation did not all of the sudden change. For Princeton who probably cut some slack from his EFC (as some ivies then to have a lower EFC than what the FAFSA assigns) he went into this knowing that his family was going to have to pay. In doing his research, he could have used the Princeton calculator to get a ballpark figure of how much his parents contribution would be, and then ask if they could handle it. Seems to be that he tried to game the system and got gamed. Over all I think that it is really sad that to send the message that it is ok not to honor your commitments or to be a person of your word. </p>
<p>What he did was selfish, as he had no regard for his parents and their financial situation, because whatever conversations may or may not have happened, in the end HE made the CHOICE to commit to ED. We sit back and talk about how our children need to take ownership, be responsible and accountable for this actions, then we go back want to smooth things over and say that you should not have consequences for your actions. </p>
<p>The college process is flawed, but kids knowing what the rules are and then looking for an out clause does not help the process. We have kids asking whats the best way to get out of ED along with how can the least amount of work they could no and not have admissions rescinded is more a mirror in our faces because we are willing to wink at the behavior and say that its o.k.</p>
<p>"dstark, I think you're missing a major point. The only kids who can not participate in ED are those whose parents don't want to pay their EFC. This is not an ED problem, it's a parent priority problem."</p>
<p>Totally agree, Kirmum. I've known lots of middle to lower class students who applied ED--because they committed to paying their EFC. And if there really are mitigating circumstances which make the EFC undo-able (like illness or job loss, not like we don't want to cut back on our vacations or live in something smaller than a Mcmansion), then every school says that's a viable reason for turning down the ED school, for an offer llike Valdez's.</p>
<p>My S was offered 15,000/yr from Umich after his ED acceptance to Columbia.<br>
We had no idea that was possible, as we did'nt think UM gave merit scholarships (it turns out the LSA school does, and somehow our withdrawal wasn't communicated to them right away.) The fact that we didn't know about it (like he didn't know about the A&M one) has no bearing--we had made the commitment. Andthough I love UM myself, I know my S is in the right place for him. We live a lifestyle a lot of posters here would not countenance in order to pay for it, but it works for us.</p>
<p>Dstark, at a need blind school like Princeton, there are no mysteries. You can do the EFC calculation and they will meet your needs. If your parents don't want to pay the EFC, that's another story. In my experience, schools like Princeton will hear you out if you have extraordinary expenses such as paying medical bills for a parent that are not calculated in the EFC. Retirement costs and other children are easily calculated before you choose to apply Ed. Parents who do not wish to pay the EFC by taking second mortgages etc. need to explain this to their children long before they apply to colleges. My family had to sit down and decide our priorities and I'm sure all but the most wealthy and the poor also have to do this. But to say ED should be ebolished because some families choose not to pay the EFC is just not appropriate.</p>
<p>I would like to go back to the arguments that dstark and kirmum have presented. We are a low income family and knew that we would need massive financial aid. We were advised by counselors, magazine articles and school websites not to apply ED because of this. The EFC calculator carries a clear disclaimer that if you are converting income from another country's currency, it may not be accurate as the rate can change. We investigated the possibility of an equity release loan on our home, only to find that I am not old enough to get one in this country. We would not qualify for a mortgage loan due to my husband's age and low income. We have no other means of coming up with money. The result of our situation is that we felt we simply could not risk D applying ED as we couldn't tell if we would have enough money to cover the expenses that might be required of us, so she was unable to have the advantage of being in the ED pool anywhere. It doesn't seem exactly fair, but on the other hand, financial aid is available so I guess I'm somewhere in the middle between the opinions of these two posters.</p>