<p>"Having started at a school I hated because of money, and having watched my D be miserable at a merit aid school, I know there can be a difference. "</p>
<p>Certainly, there can be a difference. However, many people can find an affordable college that they can enjoy. Too many people think the choice is between local state u and HPYS, but there are more options out there particularly for students with strong stats.</p>
<p>Sillystring7, do you mind sharing your daughter's stats from H.S. She seems to have applied to most of the schools my daughter has. When did you find out about the merit scholarship from UC. We have an EA acceptance there, but have no idea when $$$ gets announced.</p>
<p>NSM. Of course, but the one end was not local state U for either of us, and the other end certainly wasn't HYPS. There was still a huge difference.</p>
<p>Any free advice?</p>
<p>SAC -- I agree with you about setting standards related to the quality of a private school vs. your state college. Unless you believe your child will get "lost" at a large state school, it makes sense to pay more only when a school can provide a measurably better education and experience. </p>
<p>In our case, we were fairly sure that we would not qualify for need-based aid, and our suspicion proved correct. That's why our daughter selected a range of schools -- as an earlier poster suggested, she applied to financial safeties (schools where she believed she would be at the top of the pool and, therefore, highly likely to receive merit aid), financial matches (better than average chance at merit aid), and financial reaches (where merit aid might be awarded or might not). She toured all of the schools and felt she could be reasonably content at all of them. Even her safest of safeties -- Loyola New Orleans -- had a lot to recommend it.</p>
<p>I have to admit that her scholarship to UChicago was a pleasant surprise, and not anywhere near a guarantee. In fact, she kept her expectations for merit there low because it's a crapshoot for even the best students. UChicago does not award merit aid until regular decision letters are sent out, so she had to wait until late March to find out if she would be able to attend.</p>
<p>As for stats, they were good but I'm sure some students looked better on paper. I believe that there was something about her application that caught the attention of the committee for some unknown reason. She is home and has given me permission to share the following: GPA, unweighted 4.0; SAT, 800V 720 M; 5s on 9 of 11 AP tests and 4s on the other two; hardest courseload available. She had some national recognition in the humanities, including a major research paper published in the Concord Review. She included the research paper with her app and her counselor commended her on her "scholarly achievement," so it may have been the edge she needed. If anyone would like more info, just e-mail me and I'll be happy to respond.</p>
<p>I am responding the the post questioning the time and money spent in searching for a college that is the right fit and then looking for the best tuition deal. The reason it is worthwhile to spend some extra money in researching the colleges, is because your student is looking for a home both personally and academically for himself. If he is miserable at his college because it is that much of a misfit, it really makes no difference (emotionally) if you are paying full freight for a top dollar school or if you getting a free ride. It HURTS when the kid is miserable, and it is no fun going through the search and app process again as a transfer at which time the student is even more limited in aid options as most of the lucrative scholarships are for freshmen. So the money is a worthwhile investment. We spent a veritable fortune this year on my son's college search as a number of his schools required an audition and were far enough from home that we had to fly there, stay at a hotel, eat out, etc. Also there are additional audition fees and other costs involved with the audition. I don't like to even think about the cost especially since, he is not like to go to any of those schools. (Had I booked the auditions for after New Year's, I would not have gone into the hole as much as I have, but...) However, even this astronomical amount pales in next to the projected cost at a top private college---about $200,000. In a case like this, if he takes a lower cost school (and we have one that is on the plate right now), a school he certainly would never have considered without the special program which is renown in its filed, the cost goes down to $120,000 plus extra for transportation to this outlying area. There is a hefty scholarship attached to the offer which brings the cost down $80K. Certainly worth the extra cost of investigating. Many of these schools that are such good deals need to be visited and considered as they are often not front line schools for these kids, and it is important that the student likes the school otherwise the savings can be for naught. My neighbor's daughter was hell bent on going to BU--really anywhere in Boston, but when she got full ride from UPitt via the Chancellor's scholarship, she decided to visit Pittsburgh, and though her parents were willing to scrape and borrow to send her to her dream school, she decided that Pitt was just fine for her. She loved it there, has done well and is now at BU for law school. The money she saved from going to a full ride school made for a great life for her family during the last 4 years, and is helping her from having to scrimp through law school now.</p>
<p>hah-I'm a Concord Review rejectee</p>
<p>Yulsie made a great post - almost took the words right out of my mouth. Only one big difference - I don't have to project into the future. The issue is here and now with my S.</p>
<p>Younger son been accepted at MIT (EA) and Michigan. RD applications at Carnegie Mellon and Virginia Tech are pending. We are optimistic about at least some merit money at Michigan and (assuming he gets in) CMU - also possibly some at VT (VT's pockets are not as deep).</p>
<p>I'm not poor. But that $168K at MIT is going to be a big hit. I have told him that we would have to contribute every penny he could through work-study and summer jobs. Other MIT parents have said that this could knock things down to $100K - still a lot.<br>
As I have posted else, I have just stated the paperwork on massive home equity loan.
Hard to save more - I already drive a '93 camry with 120K miles on it ...we don't have cable TV ;-) . Bottom line is that if picks MIT, I am not going to have him start life $100K in the hole if I can help it. </p>
<p>Fit? S has visted all four. No decision yet. One straw in the wind: After his first Math Olympiad Summer Program experience (60 of the best HS math students in the country doing proof problems 8 - 10 hours a day), S mention how much fun he had, how he felt he 'belonged'. Kinda sounds like MIT to me.</p>
<p>Any thoughts on my post above?</p>
<p>The Dad - I know you put a lock of stock in 'peer' education. I believe in this, too. In fact, have <strong>seen</strong> this in action at my son's excellent public HS. This could not get any better than at MIT. But Michigan and CMU are excellent, too. At VT, he would absolutely want to be in the Honors program and would have to have the discipline to push himself - I think he could do that.</p>
<p>we found lots of ways to cut costs, although we are also getting need based aid.
Save money on books
With a major ( biology) that often has books upward of $150 new, and has a required freshman class that has 18 required books each semester, saving money on books has been a necessity.
While her school bookstore often had very good prices, we also found a brandnew biology text book for $24 at Amazon that saved us $125 on that book alone.
You need to allow extra time to order however, and it works best if you don't change your classes at last minute.
Save money on transportation
Daughter attends a school where she can come home to visit either by car or train. She doesn't need a car on campus as the city has excellent public transportation.
Save money room & board.
While she hasn't, you can save money by being an house advisor which usually covers room and board.She has the smallest meal plan and still have points left over at end of year. You can also save money by living off campus.
On campus jobs.
While her work study job pays well, is flexible and doesn't count for FAFSA, many students aren't eligible for work study. Still jobs on campus can pay for personal expenses and books and are much more flexible than off campus work.
Summer jobs.
Students are generally expected to earn a few thousand dollars each summer for expenses. If they plan ahead, high school work can give experience so that their college job is something that they enjoy and pays well.
Have your kids 8 years apart.
Nice to not have to pay for two in college.
Take a year off and volunteer/earn an educational stipend at same time.
Save it to pay off loans as soon as you graduate.
Attend an honors college within local university.
many public schools want to keep state scholars at home and offer options for them to do so.
Lots of options but college isn't easy for anyone to pay for. It isn't the end of the world to take out some loans however, unless you are expecting another big purchase as soon as you graduate.</p>
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<p>"After his first Math Olympiad Summer Program experience (60 of the best HS math students in the country doing proof problems 8 - 10 hours a day), S mention how much fun he had, how he felt he 'belonged'. Kinda sounds like MIT to me."</p>
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<p>Sounds like it to me too. I really don't think kids can be happy at a school that does not have a critical mass of like-minded students. For kids like yours (and mine), that means pretty high powered places. That doesn't have to mean MIT, although I think that's the path we're going to take. I would certainly want either of our kids to spend a significant amount of time visiting and meeting people before choosing any of the other schools on your list. I know the honors program at U. Texas would not cut the mustard for mine.</p>
<p>randomdad, every school you mentioned has top students. Why don't you see how the money issue plays out?</p>
<p>"Sounds like it to me too. I really don't think kids can be happy at a school that does not have a critical mass of like-minded students. For kids like yours (and mine), that means pretty high powered places."</p>
<p>I think that one can find this in many top tier schools, not just the very top schools. The like-minded peers can be clostered in certain majors, honors programs, theme dorms etc. A college that's not known for attracting high numbers of exceptionally talented, highly focused students may attract such students for certain majors. It good to take a very close look at a college and what it's offering before ruling it out based on the overall quality of students there.</p>
<p>That's basically the game plan now. </p>
<p>I have talked to several MIT parents, including a Computer Olympiad parent. The message is the same: 1) you will not get merit money from MIT and 2) the equity in your in your home is 'in-play' when financing an MIT education.</p>
<p>The Computer Olympiad parent said he quietly became famous in his office as the guy that kept refinancing his house to pay for his son's education - while several offers of full rides went unused. However his son said that the MIT education was worth it - even with the work-study and summer jobs.</p>
<p>I know lots of kids that have turned down full rides at Maryland for other(not always iviy) schools at full(sometimes 40K) cost. </p>
<p>... It seems like no one wants to go to UofMd from instate from around here.</p>
<p>My wife has a teacher at the elementary school she works at. The kid is African American and a National Merit Finalist. Turned down a full ride at Harvard as he wanted to go to UT Austin, the local school, with some friends.. Not a full ride there, just about $4k per year Nat Merit Money. He loves it. Has a 4.0 after about 3 semesters. I suspect Harvard will take him if he wants to go for further degrees. Mother who is a strong character just said: "Whatever makes him happy". </p>
<p>My son wants to go to UT Austin, also urm with National Merit Finalist (we assume) will be doing the same thing. I must say we are a bit more conflicted than the African American teacher. In our situation no need based aid.</p>
<p>my nephew turned down Duke for merit aid at U of Boulder. He loves it.
My niece turned down Carnegie Mellon her first choice, for a school that she only applied to because her parents made her ( Colgate) but she is also happy there. She was first in her graduating class and received a decent package from CM but Colgate also covered room and board.
A good friend of my daughters who skipped high school to enroll in the early entrance program at the University of Washington, had her college years paid for.</p>
<p>randomdad -- I think a true math kid is something of a different case. Sure, every place on his list will have smart kids and some good profs. But, he will very likely be taking graduate math classes and doing math research while still an undergrad. Not sure every place on his list would allow him to do that. Also, if math research is in his future, it might be worthwhile to check that his schools have VIGRE grants cause even some top math schools like Berkeley do not, and undergrad research opportunities are more limited. I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't know. But I know of someone who went to Dartmouth, for example. Great school. But when, as an undergrad, she started to do math research, her advisor was not cutting edge enough in the field to help her by about one month into her project. He hadn't really done significant research in the area since his PhD.</p>
<p>I don't think there is any problem at all with choosing a college because of merit aid as long as there are at least 10 or 20 kids like you. Honors programs at state universities, and the next 100 schools down from the top 10 are a great option for top kids. </p>
<p>But there are particular kids (I'm talking about the Olympiad type kids - the top 10 math, physics or computing kids in the country or in the world.) who are going to be outliers at all but a handful of colleges. There will be no one like them at a state school. Even at MIT and Harvard those kids congregate in particular classes (and in the case of MIT, a particular dorm) because they are outside the norm. Then there are the excellent points Sac raises about opportunities to take graduate level classes or do cutting edge research.</p>
<p>There are some very specific programs that are only available at certain colleges, and if a student is truly dedicated to one of those, that is a whole different story. But at age 18, kids really change their minds a lot. Pure math can morph into an applied math and state universities certainly have advanced math programs and students who are of that math type. Engineering progams are everywhere. In fact I am not really sure what the quality of HPY engineering programs are with respect to other such programs. </p>
<p>In my experience few kids turn down HPY, but when it comes to the other schools, I have seen a number of kids turn down Brown, Cornell, Dartmouth for Emory or Tulane or Vanderbilt for $200K+ gain over 4 years without a blink. Last year one young man I knew decided that though Hopkins was his first choice for many years the Reynold Scholarship at Wake Forest was simply too good to turn down and he certainly has no regrets. He loves it at Wake. And I know many families painfully paying for a top dollar college education that has not turned out to be the nirvana that they thought it was going to be. </p>
<p>My personal experience has been to throw caution to the winds and pay top dollar for the top choices in education when it came to the kids' earlier educations. And we paid very, very dearly for that choice. We did not have the kind of life or environment that most of you would want for your families or for that matter my kids did not want it either. That was mainly why my oldest 4 were cognisant of costs when they picked their colleges. We lived in really dumpy neighborhoods, often scrounged for music, EC opportunites and basically were not models for success. When I went to my 30th college reunion, I know many of my classmates felt sorry for me. It was a life style I chose for a variety of reasons, but is really not something I would recommend to anyone who does not know the ramifications of such a choice. And a few $200K college tuitiøns will put you right into that category. Something to consider.</p>