Different schools of thought about paying for college

Parents Forum
181

Like @calmom, I’ve been reading this forum for a LONG time. One thing I didn’t ever read here, however, was school rankings. Not at all. Our kids managed to matriculate at great colleges without ever seeing a ranking or an issue of USNews. Imagine that.

I did get some info on this forum about music auditions over on that music majors area. And I did post a query about CA colleges for my second child, and was given a nice list of choices to review with her. She did choose one of those schools…no rankings considerations at all.

We had a conversation with our kids about college costs…but really, with both parents working, we could be full pay just about anywhere. Nevertheless, we wanted our kids to know the costs, and also how those costs impacted our household cash flow.

We worked with our kids to craft their application lists. The colleges they chose to apply to were all very reasonable choices.

Re: ROI…my opinion is that is very unpredictable. As noted by @blossom there is a variation of success at every college. Once we agreed on the application lists (really…there wasn’t much discussion…the schools were all fine), we didn’t say “we will pay for X but not Y”. We agreed that any school applied to could be an option for attending.

Did we “give up” big vacations? No really. Did we give up eating out at expensive restaurants, and buying things we probably didn’t need anyway? Probably.

We are very proud of the young adults our kids are. Their career paths are totally different. Their income levels at the end will likely be VERY totally different. Does that mean that the one who is earning less money is less successful? Not in our eyes.

So many times, ROI is equated with high salaries, or ability to be recruited by certain companies.

In the Thumper Family, ROI means the kid graduated, is employed, enjoys their work, can pay their bills…and are happy.

182

Short and sweet - why does anyone CARE what anyone else pays for or where they send their kid to college?

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Well it IS a discussion because it’s a reality and a hard decision for many and probably because we all care about not just our own children.

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Every family is different. How people choose to spend their money and/or what they spend their money on, is really no one’s business.
Regarding the college admissions process in our family, we were clear up front about what we had budgeted for college. And we could/could not pay for. Our kids did a good job applying to schools within our budget. They also applied for scholarships, etc. Also, none of our kids was offered a full ride anywhere, so that wasn’t a consideration…
Our daughter has attended college and our son will start in fall 2019. We were/are able to pay without cutting back on a ton, that said our daughter did get some scholarships that lowered her costs a bit. We were/are lucky that we could do that. Sure, if we hadn’t had kids we could have retired much sooner and taken more fancy vacations, but oh well. Yes, money was a consideration when our kids were applying, but that’s the case for a lot of families. No we can’t afford to pay full price at a fancy private college, but again, that’s life. Our kids our lucky that we can pay for what we can. They’ve had a great life and my daughter had a wonderful college experience and I’m sure son will have a good one too!
But as I say, different strokes for different folks. Or as my grandma said, there are many ways to skin a cat…there are many ways to raise kids and pay for college…

185

I like this thread. Its title begins with “different schools of thought”. Hearing the thought process of others can help when you’re seeking guidance. It’s ‘food for thought’, not a set road map.

As the saying goes, “you don’t know, what you don’t know”. Sometimes reading and trying to understand another’s situation from their perspective helps you examine your own values, expectations and biases. You may consider things that weren’t on your radar.

186

Well said. In the Garland Family as well.

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^ that’s a reasonable assessment and I do agree. That’s why I read these things too. My point was (although made in haste and frustration) that the thread and many others like it has drifted into a judgement or parenting lecture. There shouldn’t be any “sides” to defend, just examples of how one went about it. So many folks commenting how others are crazy if they do this or that (both sides).

That’s what I mean when I said “Who cares…” I value reading about the decisions of others but I don’t judge them.

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It does certainly matter how much others are willing and able to pay. On one side one can argue an inflow of funds supports driving prices and competition up even further, for example how early decision admission is a form of giving preference to those who pay in full over those with less financial means. On the other side funds from full fare payers could in theory be used for financial aid to others.

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NYpapa, we live in a market economy. You don’t have to pay for things you don’t think are worth the “price”, but to argue that Stanford should charge 35K per year when there is a line out the door of people willing to pay more than 35K suggests that the “market” disagrees with your assessment.

The curious situation is when Hofstra, Adelphi, University of New Haven charge prices which are within shouting distance of Stanford. Are those colleges “worth” a price close to Stanford’s price? The full payers at those schools would most likely argue yes-- their kid needs to be close to home, Stonybrook or U Conn are too big, they need a smaller campus, the program they want isn’t offered anywhere else. All valid reasons. But you can’t blame the full payers for the “price” of the college. Thousands and thousands of people vote with their feet and their pocketbooks.

190

“The third – and the one that I think really is based on a very narrow view – is when decisions are made solely based on prestige or rankings.”

I think that’s a little harsh, Pres Obama sent his kid to Harvard, based on guess what on prestige and legacy. They may have considered Yale, also on prestige. What exactly is narrow minded about a kid selecting Stanford for engineering based solely on prestige? I think credit should go to people who say they chose their school based on prestige than say prestige didn’t play a role and say oh yeah I’m at Harvard for physics and Chicago for economics, but prestige didn’t enter into the decision at all.

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I did find an article on Kiplinger which estimated ROI for a number of schools, but I found it relatively useless, as I have to believe it depends as much on the spread of majors than the quality of the education. Someone on this board recommended a source where alumni were surveyed on their college experience mid-career. I wish I knew how to refer others to the site, as I put a lot of stuck in their “grades” for items like how much they valued their alumni connections, how challenged they were academically/personally, etc. That article was a big reason why DD2 picked her small liberal arts college.

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The reality that my 2 kids faced when choosing between a more expensive private and a less expensive lower-ranked school was not between “full-ride” and 70k but somewhere in between. Both kids received full tuition (our state flagship does not offer “full-ride” merit scholarships). But they both received some financial aid from the very generous private schools that they got into. So the difference between the two options was probably in the range of 30-40K a year, not small potatoes but also not 70k a year. I really think this scenario is much more common than the “full-ride” vs 70k that many other posters talk about. If we were faced with that scenario perhaps my kids would have chosen differently.

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It is a personal and familial decision. We’re in different circumstances, have different kids, and we and our kids have our own values and needs.

I am one who believes the fact that an elite college grad ends up working at the same company as a mid-level state school grad doesn’t mean the Ivy education wasn’t worth it. For me, education is more than training for a future occupation. I was willing to sacrifice a lot to give my offspring the best UG education possible. I am not willing to sacrifice to pay for a condo or as @itsgettingreal17 and @Corraleno suggest handing a kid $100,000 or $200,00 to start life. I’m just not. So many people on this board say a kid should have some “skin in the game” paying for college. Well, I think it’s nuts to hand a 22 year old kid $100,000 and say “thanks for not making me spend this on your education.”

And, no @corraleno, it’s not about prestige. I wouldn’t love my “graduated from an elite college” adult kid less if kid had gone to SUNY. I also wouldn’t love that kid less if said kid’s IQ was 30 points lower . I just felt that my kid would benefit from going to an elite school–especially the college kid wanted to attend, which I thought was a wonderful fit. And to make that happen, I was willing to sacrifice. To buy my kid a condo or start a business? Nope, I’m not willing to sacrifice for that.

Given the cost of college and the way financial aid is structured, with very limited exceptions it’s just not possible for an 18 year old to pay his or her own way through college. It IS possible for a twenty-something (or older) especially one who has no student loan debt, to sacrifice and save the $ to start the business or buy the condo.(A friend’s son, for example, began a start up with 2 friends when he started college. They all lived together in the same apartment to save $ to launch their business–which they sold a few years later. His share would have been enough to pay for his UG education at any school and buy a condo and do a lot of other things. Personally, I think the tippy top college education he had helped him create his business.)

Different strokes for different folks. It helps though if your kid feels the same way. I know many people on this board think that foregoing the very elite schools won’t hurt their kids one iota and that even places like Harvard or Stanford aren’t worth the price. I’ve also known a number of people IRL who went to less selective schools when they could have gone to a H or S or another top college who really feel their lives WERE hurt by it. I’m not sure any of them ever told their parents that.

One of my closest friends in high school–who was a lot more intelligent than I am–took the free ride to a college that changes lives type of school. She was a superstar there. Nobody studying in her department came close to her. As a senior, she had an affair with a married professor. She wrote me about it and, knowing I’d be appalled, she tried to explain, saying that he was the only male she knew interested in the same sorts of things she was who could discuss them at the same level and she enjoyed their discussions so much…and one thing lead to another and…The affair ruined her life in many different ways. The rules against relationships with students weren’t as strong back then and my understanding is that he emerged relatively unscathed.

Now, I also know people who think if you end up in the same place professionally, it makes no difference. So, if you want to be a doctor and are able to get into med the school from a less that stellar state U, then clearly that’s the right choice because it’s cheaper and you’ll have money for med school. But, believe it or not, I know people who think it’s better to go to the super elite UG and the cheapest possible American accrediitated med school, i.e., they think that in terms of life experience it’s better to go Williams College and instate UMass-Medical–which granted is still expensive–than to accept a merit scholarship for UG and go to a more expensive med school. Heck, with NYU Medical School going tuition free, saving lots of money for med school may not be the best choice if you knew in advance that you’d do well enough in college to get into NYU med.

So, every family gets to choose. But please don’t suggest that those of us who pay sticker price for a top 10 university do so solely for “prestige” and/or that we’ll pay for it rather than giving a kid $100,00-200,000 for a condo or to start a business because the former gives us more Brownie points for prestige. Nope, I paid for a top UG education because this is something my offspring couldn’t do at the age of 18. If they want the other things, young adults can work and sacrifice to get them.

194

Another data point, here people say one should take cheapest UG option and save for Masters, if one intends to study further. In our case, DD14 graduated from tippy top school and got into the tippy top school for Masters program…fully funded (close to ~100k) all tuition, room and board included. So, in a way going to expensive/prestigious option helped getting PG for free. It may not be true for all Masters programs…but it is also another data point to consider.

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Most pre-meds will not have a choice between medical schools. Most who apply get 0 admissions. Most of those who avoid getting shut out get 1 admission, so they have to take it or leave it, regardless of cost and (usually huge) debt, unless the parents have lots of money to contribute to medical school costs. (And all medical schools in the US are effectively elite.)

If the elite undergraduate school is the lowest cost, then it can be a good choice for a pre-med. But if it is substantially more expensive than other options, it may not be as good a choice, if choosing a less expensive one means more money left to fund medical school or less debt to be hauling through medical school.

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And I have the feeling that NYU Med with its free tuition is going to be darn near impossible to get into going forward. They had a 1.6% acceptance rate before the free tuition initiative … I’d anticipate that is going to plunge. So not something to plan around. (And no particular reason to expect that NYU will be giving any kind of admissions boost to students coming from elite undergrad schools either – they may very well favor factors that build a more diverse class.)

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You are all correct about Med school and costs and debt… but I feel a responsibility to point out that there are tens of thousands of young college grads who have no interest in medicine, never apply to med school, and still have fabulous career prospects. CC seems singularly obsessed with how to pick a college based on the somewhat slim chance that your kid ends up in med school. And that’s just not reality for a majority of students. I know “pre meds” in all sorts of careers- some which are health care related, some which are not.

Reality check over.

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fzehigh - I get your point, but that is not the usual scenario.

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But there are a lot of students who do plan on some sort of grad school, sooner or later. PhD programs tend to be funded, but that isn’t true of most master’s programs or professionally oriented grad programs. So conservation of assets is still a factor whether or not med school is on the horizon.

And I’d note that when my daughter was at an elite school – it seemed like most of the students around her were either pre-professional (pre med, pre law, etc.) or thinking they would get jobs on Wall Street. Not very many saw that elite bachelor’s as a terminal degree.

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I just wanted to say that i appreciate this conversation because we as a family don’t have it all figured out yet, even after one kid has already attended college! seeing all the different perspectives is really helping me consider what is most important for us. So thank you CC parents!