@fzehigh adds an interesting point. Not all, but MANY post grad opportunities at top schools are funded. I know many, including my college roommate, brothers, earned PhDs and MBAs from top schools (HYPSW, etc.) funded either by their company or on scholarship (brother got a PhD from UT Autin in Neuro Psych tuition free (similar offers from several top universities) Roommate got his Wharton MBA for free (sponsored by his company). This stuff happens more than you think.
If your company pays for your MBA, you have to stay with the company or pay the company back. The attraction of Wharton is it opens up doors to other companies, and those wanting to make a career change. Most people that do this need a MBA to move up in the company or just want Wharton on their resume or linked-in.
But you don’t have to stay with the company forever, Thelonius, and most companies have a graduated payment plan if you leave. It’s not like you are an indentured servant for 30 years…
“But, believe it or not, I know people who think it’s better to go to the super elite UG and the cheapest possible American accrediitated med school, i.e., they think that in terms of life experience it’s better to go Williams College and instate UMass-Medical–which granted is still expensive–than to accept a merit scholarship for UG and go to a more expensive med school.”
That’s a recipe for accruing a boatload of debt. As ucbalumnus said, you don’t really have a choice what med school you go to, you pretty much go where you’re accepted, whether that’s a more affordable one or a private one in an expensive city. That’s why the advice to minimize undergraduate costs and debt is a sound one.
IMO MBAs are priced for companies to sponsor them and it’s seldom worth the investment to pay for oneself (remember you are foregoing earnings as well as paying the fees so the real cost is much higher than the sticker price.). As @blossom points out, you don’t have to stay forever at the sponsoring company and often are promoted up as soon as you graduate anyway, which in itself helps your resume for future job searches too. I’ve known a bunch of people get MBAs from top business schools, only one of whom has funded himself (a decision he openly acknowledges he regrets).
My spouse went to a top MBA program about 20 years ago. She came from the non-profit world so there was no company to sponsor her tuition. She has since risen to managing director of her company. Getting and paying for her MBA was one of the best financial decisions that she has ever made.
Coming from the non-profit world, she probably wasn’t sacrificing that much in lost income either. I wonder what the comparable cost was back then, too.
For my friend going on hiatus from a comfortable six figure salary for two years and paying top dollar himself, with MBAs being around $100k a year all in now… that’s a big investment to recoup once you’ve added it all up.
Basically…like the rest of the thread…it’s a totally personal decision on what degree at what school is worth what amount of money to any particular individual, given their circumstances.
Of course the big unknown in any of these calculations, more so with an mba than with an obvious necessity like MD or JD for their professions, is to what extent it was the mba and what extent it was the person that made it higher. Plenty of non-mba MDs around too.
This is basically why I left HBS before the end of the first year in the late 80s. The delta between what I was making going in and what I’d likely make coming out, on top of the two years of foregone income, was about a ten year break-even, and I didn’t see that I was learning all that much as I was already in executive management before I got there. I’m now retired and don’t regret that decision one iota. In hindsight, having that MBA wouldn’t have helped me financially. I did just fine without it, but that’s what Harvard told us on the way in: Getting accepted into this program is like applying to a bank for a loan–the less you need it the more likely they are to give it to you.
@theloniusmonk In fact he roommate did have to stay with major global employer for two yrs. Was worth it as mot only did he get the Wharton MBA, they brought him back at a much higher level. Within a few yrs, he was the CFO of one of their businesses. He eventually left, had a few other assignments, and is now the CFO of a F200 company without having to pay for a Wharton MBA. Not bad.
DS18 went the full ride route. No question I was the one most conflicted about it. He never was and didn’t apply to any elite schools. Ultimately the perks received from his in-state public U helped me feel really good about it (guaranteed admission to their med school, a “mentored” scholarship that really is a program and an experience not just funding, funded study abroad all three summers, honors college, etc.). Med school has always seemed like a good fit and the likely path for him so it seemed like the smart option.
One semester in now it still looks like to me this was the right decision for us. Most of all, he seems really happy and well adjusted there. He is very engaged in involved, between his fraternity, student government opportunity, intramural sports, activities related to the scholarship programs, or just doing stuff with friends he has met. He has a terrific extended friend group that largely grown out of the scholarship program and dorm relationships. He is close to home but doesn’t come home that much because he is so busy (does he even miss us at all? haha we want to think so!)
The only area I’m not completely convinced about (and may still be by the end) is academic challenge. There is no question year one has not been a situation where he has been pushed academically. They do not accept AP Bio credit for first year biology classes in the major, so that seems to be one situation where he is repeating a lot of material. His AP Chem credit would have allowed him to skip first year gen chem, but he choose not to so as to be a part of a first year science LLP. Again repeating a lot of material. Good MCAT review I suppose? Other classes (a neuro/psych class, microecon as a free elective, a final needed gen ed credit) while somewhat interesting to him I don’t sense added much rigor. His AP Calc BC credit counted, so no more math requirements. He plans to take physics (algebra based for bio majors) next year.
I’m going to reserve judgment on this though until he hits organic chem and the upper level biology and neuroscience classes in his majors. I’ve heard it stated several times on these boards that STEM degrees are challenging/rigorous enough no matter where you go. Still thinking that will end up being true for him also, and year one will be the exception.
Haven’t read the whole thread but just want to say this is only a dilemma for those who might have the money to pay. Those who don’t, either shoot for the best financial aid (and for talented kid this can be an elite school) or the kids go to community college. Another strategy for any family is to wait until the child is 24 and then financial aid is based on the kid’s finances, not the parents’.
To add to your comment Compmom, the definition of ability to pay varies by family and the level of risk that is comfortable. A family may have the money, but if they are only comfortable spening all of it as long as both parents can continue to work until 65 or later, the family may feel that the risk of job loss is too high to spend $300K on college.
With the exception of super elite schools, for families with moderate income, the best finanical school is likely to be one that is “lower” in the ranks. Very smart, capable kids can find academic challenge at schools below the top 30.
Back in the age of dinosaurs, the normal IB track was 2 year analyst program, MBA, associate position. During the course of the 90’s, I noticed we were offering more of the top analysts direct promotion into associate positions. Interestingly, many of them (including some of the top analysts working for me and for whom I wrote LoR’s) opted for BSchool, especially if they got into HWS. I think their calculus was based on potential future lateral moves, networking opportunities, and the fact they needed a break from the grind. My understanding that bypassing MBA’s is even more prevalent now with IB’s in a talent war with PE and hedge funds.
Yes, and another reason why many MBA programs are experiencing declining applications, including some of the M7. Other potential reasons: high relative cost of MBA (often 100% shouldered by student), and plentiful jobs in many industries/sectors/geographies (domestic and int’l)
@mom2and I agree with your point about “comfort” of spending money on college depending upon job security of the parents. No one is guaranteed an income stream—not employees, business owners, or those that might inherit funds. It is a gamble to spend more than currently on hand. We may be more comfortable spending a bit more on DD20’s UG just because DS16 will have his degree and what remains in the college savings is solely for her, but also because we both feel a bit more secure in our employment than we did when DS16 was picking a school. We also have that many more years of contributions to retirement behind us. Staying in the work force until 65 is not guaranteed to anyone so borrowing funds to be paid back from income to that age is truly a risk I am not willing to take.
As always, the right answer to the question of whether to pay for full pay (if you can afford it – thank you @compmom ) is, “It depends.”
For example, if looked at as an economic proposition, it depends upon the field the kid is likely to pursue. With the possible exceptions of Stanford, MIT and maybe Caltech, I don’t see a whole lot of reasons to pursue prestige for kids who are going to be engineers. I don’t have the sense that companies don’t pay a premium for more prestigious departments and any premium if paid would go away over time (but I’d ask @blossom who will have knowledge about this). Hiring into some fields (like management consulting) is skewed to prestigious schools.
The very top schools (HPYSM and maybe a few others) can tend to raise the horizons and expectations of students (“I want to be the best person in the world in this field” rather than the best person in Canada or Alabama – or even the aspiration to be the best). They also offer extraordinary networks. For example, I do see some remarkable value in the Stanford ecosystem for tech startups, as a kid with drive will find the internships and then have access to great jobs upon graduation. But, whether this is valuable or not depends upon the students’ drive and field.
Whether full pay at a prestigious school makes sense also depends upon the parents’ economic needs and their own role expectations. Do they have sufficient savings to fund full pay education and retirement? What kinds of tradeoffs are they willing to make? How do they see themselves? Perhaps because of our Ashkenazi Jewish heritage, we feel the most important thing we can do for our kids is provide the best education and opportunities I can. It feels like something of a moral imperative for us. [Human capital is what you take with you when they kick you out of a country.] So, ShawWife and I view the education/horizons/networks of a prestigious place as more important than the comparable financial gift. But, I don’t believe that you need to share our views.
This problem that I see with threads like these is that some posters feel an emotional need to validate their own choices by casting aspersions on or questioning the motivations of posters who make other choices and other posters who feel shade even when it is not cast. There are enough variations among students and parents that I don’t see a valid reason to judge others’ motivations. The fact that they did something different than I did (or would do) does not necessarily make them wrong.
“This problem that I see with threads like these is that some posters feel an emotional need to validate their own choices by casting aspersions on or questioning the motivations of posters who make other choices and other posters who feel shade even when it is not cast. There are enough variations among students and parents that I don’t see a valid reason to judge others’ motivations. The fact that they did something different than I did (or would do) does not necessarily make them wrong.”
This is so spot on! No one should feel they need to justify their position. You do what you feel makes sense for your kid based on your situation. I think some take offense when the read things like “… we do X because of our values” . They interpret that to mean by not doing X, you are devoid of values. I think they confuse the words values with morals. Values, in a literal sense, simply means you assign a certain value to X (being full pay, taking a scholarship to a lower ranked school, going to community college, etc.). What I assign to X is likely quite different than anyone else because we all have different situations.
Rickie, people have different values and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with stating that.
Frankly, I can tell you whatever decision my kid made and whatever college he ended up going, I will probably be able to justify his going there as the “best” decision. Had my kid gone to an Honors College, I will probably be posting how great Honors College is, and how my kid is getting great grades and education for free. You know why? Because whatever my kid decides within a reason, I will probably be supportive and happy about. lol
Also, whatever college he went, he probably would have learned similar stuff and had slightly different experiences, given differences in strong and negative points, cultures and regions – but good experiences probably.
Now, there were only few colleges I had some personal reservations about my kid going there: Berkeley, Harvard and UNLV. Other than that, I wouldn’t have been concerned about his going to UCLA, Honors College and Stanford.
“Frankly, I can tell you whatever decision my kid made and whatever college he ended up going, I will probably be able to justify his going there as the “best” decision.”
Very good point, been doing some reading on biases and decision making and basically if you keep second guessing yourself it’s hard to move on (in general, not just college admissions), so the mind pretty much justifies these decisions even if it wasn’t the best one, which is again good as you don’t want keep reliving the past.