Difficulty with math - need advice!

Parents Forum
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<p>Carter - what state are you in? </p>

<p>I fought for 2 years for testing for D1 and they told me that if D was GT she couldn't be LD or need OT, lol. Odd, when I qualified as an English teacher overseas, we always looked for dyslexia and GT and LD were mutually exclusive. </p>

<p>Finally, a special ed diagnostician looked at her SOI test (one of the tests used for GTin the district. She was only trial placing in GT and her 2nd grade teacher couldn't believe that this 7 year old who was reading Two Towers was not GT) They discovered that on both sittings she was 'profoundly disabled' in one of the required areas to place into GT. Irony of ironies, it was finally determined that her fine motors skills at 8 were the level of an average 3 yr old (no wonder she was having problems writing), this was so far off that she qualifed for OT-PT under our health insurance plan. The special ed diagnostician told us has dyslexic-dysgraphia. No ability to visualize. She received accomodation for years because she was not able to copy assignments off the blackboard and would miss the entire lesson if she tried. Geometry and Pre-Cal were painfully difficult for her. If she gets a lower grade now in Calc. it is only because she forgets to write down all of the steps in the proofs.</p>

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<p>If she was able to do fine in Algebra I in the 7th grade, I have trouble believing that she's just bad at math.</p>

<p>It sounds like her foundation in algebra is shaky. I think the key here is to find out what, exactly, it is that she is struggling with - what part of the problems. When I had trouble with differential equations in college, I worked with a tutor, and we figured out two reasons why I was having trouble - there were particular integration techniques that I had forgotten the mechanics of that I needed to do for a lot of the problems, and that I had trouble understanding "black-box" techniques with little explanation behind the concepts and no clear explanation as to how they would be applied. We worked on those problems, and I passed. It wasn't a disability, it was a couple of broken pieces in the framework for how I would do the problems, that caused the whole framework to not work.</p>

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<p>I taught in Virginia years ago - since then, I went to law school and practiced and am now in another business. It was in the 70's when there was so much funding, we pretty much did whatever we wanted. I had a full time aide and there were special reading teachers, math teachers, art teachers, and on and on. Funding generally has been cut back significantly since then so getting testing is probably much more difficult. I did the IQ and achievement testing and the school psychologist did other tests and we made our recommendations together. That's just silly that they said someone can't be GT and still have a disability. A skew like that is classic for learning disabled children.</p>

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<p>It does sound to me like she was pushed too far, too early, in math with the 7th grade algebra and is missing on foundational concepts. So I agree with Jessie about the broken pieces in the framework.</p>

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<p>All I know is that "getting it" is like so important for kid to do well in any subject. My DD is a very smart kid and has been excel in many subjects in HS. However, when she started the AP physics last year, she struggled at first - telling me "I don't get it". </p>

<p>A few more classes and with my occasional help, she finally got it. The end results - A in class, 5 in AP and 800 in SAT II physics.</p>

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<p>What is the OP's hunch? I am thinking that l00 parents whose kids were diagnosed with LD's (including some GT/LD combinations) can hear l00 stories about kids who didn't get Math until they got a piece of the framework fixed. </p>

<p>While all experiences are valuable to share, I'm thinking that the two sets of experiences don't speak to each other.</p>

<p>This feels about like having a child with a club foot hear about others with two normal feet who got the correct pair of shoes finally fit and could run like the wind.</p>

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<p>I think that we need to be wary about trying to "fix" our kids. I'm not generally big on the "self-esteem" movement, but it seems to me that there are risks to this girl's psyche in focusing too much on math wehn her strengths (and interests) lie elsewhere. Most people just "hit the wall" in math at some point--some earlier than others.</p>

<p>Let her be.</p>

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<p>The problem with the gifted/LD rationale in this case is that the OP's daughter is struggling at a level of math that is about 2 years ahead of where an average student would be. If she were struggling with geometry then it would make more sense to look at it that way.</p>

<p>I know it has become something of the norm for high achieving college bound students to rush through math -- but basically this student is taking a senior year class as a sophomore and having a tough time with it. </p>

<p>The mistake may be the assumption that a "gifted" student must be uniformly gifted in all areas.</p>

<p>It is very possible for a student to be both gifted and LD -- but because of the current math placement, that doesn't seem to apply here. </p>

<p>I do think the student should probably drop the current math class simply because of the mismatch.</p>

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<p>My son is gifted in math and LD in verbal; I'm afraid the grader who reads his SAT essay will flag it as "frivolous exam!" or something and he'll never be allowed to take them again.</p>

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<p>Thanks to everyone who posted. You've all helped me clarify my options.</p>

<p>To all those who suggested ALEKS, thanks. I checked it out and it looks like it could help. Only problem is that D is discouraged and unmotivated, so I'll have to stay right there with her or else she'll just waste time on myspace. She does need to practice, practice, practice. </p>

<p>I tried talking to the teacher, and there doesn't seem to be a pattern in why she is doing so poorly. Sometimes it's careless mistakes and sometimes she doesn't seem to understand the concepts and sometimes she runs out of time. This teacher isn't used to teaching this class (she has 6 Algebra II classes and one of Functions) and D has seen her make mistakes in class. Her school doesn't have a head of the math dept. so I'm thinking of going to the district head of secondary school math. </p>

<p>I think one reason she did as well as she did in Algebra I and Geometry in middle school is that those teachers gave her accomodations (though they didn't call it that). She also has test anxiety (only with math), and both of those teachers let her take tests after school, untimed. She always more time than the class did. These teachers gave everyone that option, but these were all GT kids, so D was the only one who did it. At the state-mandated end of course tests in Algebra I, Geometry, and Algebra II, which are untimed, she always took longer than anyone else (but she passed)! </p>

<p>To Cartera, yes extra time would help on the SATs. When she took PSATs, she finished the Reading and Writing sections 10-15 minutes ahead of time (here she needs to learn to work more slowly and carefully to max her scores) but did not get to over 1/4 of the math problems. I brought up the idea of testing to D, and she actually likes it, and even if she's not math LD, we could find out if she's reached her limit in math. It would help to know if she's LD in math, or just has an uneven profile.</p>

<p>To Calmom and Kittymom, thank you for sharing your Ds's college stories. It's encouraging that they got into top schools without Pre-Cal in HS. D wants to pick up a second HS language next year, and senior year take Arabic or Russian at the local CC. Last year she won a language award, and her teacher is going to nominate her for a prestigious foreign language academy next year (assuming she keeps up the good work). </p>

<p>Right now, she's in a regular math sequence, but still two years ahead. There are sophomores, juniors, and a few seniors in the class. A few of the other kids from her middle school gifted program also dropped from Honors Algebra II/Trig last year to Algebra II. At her school, you can get into Honors Pre-Cal either from Honors Algebra II/Trig or Functions. Pre-Cal uses the same textbook as Functions, but covers the whole book while Functions covers about half of it. So if she makes it through Functions and goes to Pre-Cal next year, some of that class will be a repeat. </p>

<p>I am going to ask if she can get moved from Functions back to Algebra II (no credit since she already has it) just to keep her practicing in math. I wish she would take a math class in summer school, but that would be a tough sell. Right now she's determined to have the summer off from school.</p>

<p>If she knew she wanted to go with languages/linguistics in college, it would be an easier choice - I'd let her play to her strengths As is, she is going to finish HS with 7 language credits. But she's also interested in being a doctor, and if something doesn't change, math will keep her from that. From what I understand, medical schools require calculus. Her Chemistry teacher thinks she could do it if she just gets through Pre-Cal in HS, possibly repeats it in college, and then takes Calculus in summer school at the local CC.</p>

<p>One more question: with her profile, do you think she should forget the SAT and concentrate on the ACT? She says she doesn't want to take the SAT, but is willing to prep for the ACT before senior year.</p>

<p>Thanks again to all who replied to my post!</p>

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<p>All colleges now accept ACT so there is no reason to have your d. take the SAT if she would rather do the ACT. Actually, there is an advantage with the ACT because she can choose which score to submit -- so if she takes it several times and manages to bring up the math score, the colleges will never see the low score. </p>

<p>Here's a link which details what medical schools require:
Pre-Med</a> Requirements: Undergraduate Courses and GPA</p>

<p>None require that the student take calculus in high school -- so there is always the possibility of your d. picking up the course in college. I've heard of many cases of students who had difficulty with calculus in high school but then did not have problem in college -- so I think some students are simply not ready during their mid-teens. In any case, your d. would do better to improve her foundation in math. </p>

<p>My d. also says that she does math very slowly -- she claims to understand the concepts, but says it just takes "forever" for her to work out the math. However, she will be taking more math oriented courses in college than she ever thought she would, with stats & econ courses, because of her current goals for grad school. But I think it helps with motivation now that she has a specific goal in mind.</p>

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<p>In the situation described, my wild guess is that the SAT math section might be "easier" than the ACT math section for your D, but the way to know is to try genuine previous released tests under actual test time limits for both brands of test. That's cross-training, and should help the scores on both brands of test if the practice is done thoughtfully.</p>

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<p>Califa, have your D take the SAT as well as the ACT. When she takes the SAT, initially tell the College Board not to send the scores anywhere. If she doesn't do well, no one will ever see. If she does do well (or appears to be in the range where she could do well with coaching) you can always spend a few bucks and have the scores reported later.</p>

<p>But in any event, try to keep the situation in perspective. As is clear, this is a girl with significant strengths. If you are sure that you want to go the private school route, the worst that will happen is that she'll end up somewhere in the Vassar/Bard/Skidmore type complex of schools.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the link to medical school admission requirements. It's good to Know that not all med schools require calculus and calculus based physics.</p>

<p>Talked to D's math teacher and guidance counselor today. If she drops Functions now, she will get an administrative F, which will stay on her transcript. If she stays in the class, she might fail it, but she does have a chance of bringing up the grade. The teacher wants her to stay in the class, and the counselor suggested waiting until the end of the semester to decide.</p>

<p>She will be able to retake Functions next year. If she gets a better grade, the F or whatever she has at the end of this semester will remain on her transcript, but only the new (hopefully higher) grade will count towards her GPA.</p>

<p>Also found out that if she gets a test anxiety diagnosis, the teacher will have to provide accomodations - it doesn't have to be LD.</p>

<p>Here are the options:
1. Drop math and take a study hall (not acceptable to me, though it's what D wants)</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Drop Functions and retake second semester Algebra II . This is allowed even though she has credit for it; the higher of the two grades will count, and again her transcript will show she repeated Algebra II B.</p></li>
<li><p>Drop Functions and switch to Honors Algebra II/ Trig. She has a B from last year in Alg II/ Trig for first semester, and a B in regular Algebra II for second semester. So this would not be repeating a course this spring, though she'll still have to retake Functions next year. Last year her teacher wanted her to stay with the Honors level, but I thought it was too stressful. But last year D refused to get tutoring and I didn't force it (bid mistake). </p></li>
<li><p>Try to stick it out with Functions (don't know if she should do this if she winds up with a D or F) and hope she can somehow get a C for the year.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Whatever she does, I plan on making her get some kind of help with math every day - maybe not letting her get her learner's permit unless and until she does that. (I'd tie that to effort, not performance). </p>

<p>If she drops to Alg II or Alg II/ Trig, either way she'll retake Functions next year, and be on track for Pre-Cal senior year. Or she could go with Statistics (not AP) or computer programming next year. She'll need a fourth math credit for the Advanced Studies diploma.</p>

<p>What would you do? Thanks...</p>

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<p>For what purpose? It appears that you are not asking for an educational judgment, but rather for a judgment about how to make your daughter's transcript look good for purposes of Ivy/top LAC admissions. For these purposes, the impact of the decision on GPA is not likely to be relevant and I'm not sure what the relevance of an Advance Studies diploma is for ANY purpose (certainly, it is not going to impress any admissions officer). As I noted before, under any of these your daughter's relative weakness in Math is going to be clear to any admissions officer who gives the transcript more than a cursory look. So if you're trying to make the transcript look good, the best option is to have as little math as possible, concentrating instead on advanced courses in her areas of strength.</p>

<p>But that is the wrong question in any event. I don't know your daughter, but my best guess is that educationally, she is probably better off gutting out functions and taking a soft math course next year.</p>

<p>Lastly, she is 15, not 8. Forcing tutoring on her might well be counterproductive. But what do I know.</p>

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<p>For now, I'm looking into having her PCP diagnose her with math anxiety. Then if the school OK's it, she'll get the same accomodations (extra time, taking tests after school) she had with Algebra I and Geometry. Right now she's in a vicious cycle - math is her weakness, she takes a test and has a panic attack and/or draws a blank, gets upset and discouraged, says she can't do math. Last math test, she panicked and cried for 15 minutes. I'm getting worried about the stress level here. If she can get the math anxiety diagnosis, hopefully the extra time and distraction free testing situation will help her get through the required college math class. </p>

<p>Emmi, maybe you're right that she should struggle through functions this year so she can go with programming or stats next year. (If she fails this semester, the school will make her repeat that semester). D wants to go mathless senior year and take Arabic at the local CC and I've agreed. She hasn't really thought abuot where she wants to go - she likes UVA and Georgetown but hasn't really even started looking. I think she should look at LACs too, even if she decides on medicine not languages. The teacher who probably knows her best thinks she won't know what she wants to do until after the first year or two of college.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
math is a special language which needs to be taught in the following sequence: AlgebraI/Geometry -> AlgebraII/Trig -> Pre-Calc -> Calculus -> higher stuff.

[/quote]

Sorry to jump into the discussion so late, but I would like to ask if precalc is normally necessary for success in calc. S skipped it entirely, but he is very confident in his math abilities. D suffered from several bad math teachers and had begun to doubt herself. This is the first year in a while that she feels confident and has a solid A. She took Algebra II in 9th and Trig in 10th. Would you suggest precalc + AP calc AB, or AP calc AB + AP calc BC to finish out high school? (I am math challenged myself, so I don't know what to advise).</p>

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<p>LKF, it is not always necessary to take AB and then BC. At many schools, BC covers all of the AB and BC material in a single course. I believe this was the original intent of the course. I'm not sure what her trig class was. Usually I only hear about a trig class in the context of a non-calc math sequence, unless trig is like a substitute geometry. A normal math progression for a good math student is Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II (sometimes this and geometry are switched), Pre-Calc, Calc BC (which covers all AB and BC material). I'm not sure whether that makes sense at their school. If Calc AB and BC are always offered separately, then they are probably at a relatively slow-pace. In that case, she can probably skip pre-calc and jump right into AB, if that's something normally done in her school. The thing is, so much depends on the particular curriculum. I encourage you and your daughter to meet with a GC or the head of the math department or even her current math teacher to go over options. They know your school best. Keep in mind that you should also consider how good the teachers are for each class. If your daughter only succeeds when she has a hands-on and supportive math teacher, for example, she should look for similar teachers (or the same teacher!) for her future classes.</p>

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<p>lkf, I did not see the question until a few moments ago, but corranged answered your question really well!</p>

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<p>Thanks for the help corranged! We did agree to have her step out of the honors math track this year because the non-honors teacher was so much better than the honors teacher. We all thought it was better for her to learn the material than to have the honors designation. From what I hear, it was the right choice for her. </p>

<p>I guess I should find out what the precalc curriculum and teacher would be. Her current trig class covers the trig functions, complex numbers, exponential and log functions, ellipses, hyperbolas, conics, parametric and polar equations (yes, I can copy some chapter contents! :D) I really don't know what "precalc" is, but have heard that it covers some algebra topics. </p>

<p>We will speak to the math teachers involved and to the GC. I'm sure they will have some advice based on the performance of previous students.</p>

<p>Thanks again!</p>