Disadvantages of joining a sorority?

[sybbie719]

<p>

You on the other hand ignore any child achievement at standardized tests or 4 years of rigorous high school curriculum as either a one day wonder or 4 year of parent pressure.

</p>

<p>Wrong again. As a HS GC, who has been involved in the college process for many years and has gone through the process at least a 1000 times more kids than you have, I don’t have that luxury. Even the colleges themselves acknowledge that the 4 years in the classroom is more important than the standardized test.</p>

[PaperChaserPop]

<p>

@Fitzsimmons

One of the main reasons that a kid with perfect scores would be rejected or waitlisted at any “elite” school is because when reviewing their applications, the admissions committee may reach concensus that this student would be better suited somewhere else.

</p>

<p>Sorry for sidetracking. The above quote from Harvard can be viewed as a nice way of admitting yield protection. Btw, how do they know who is better suited for which college? Do they have intimate knowledge of what their competitors are looking for that is different from what they are looking for?</p>

[ParentOfIvyHope]

<p>

Every student who attends Harvard and pretty much every other ivy/elite LAC is getting a discount as the cost of tuition (even amongst the full payers) about half the cost of education from these schools, with the balance met primarily through income from endowment investments and annual giving. So a family that pays full tuition is not even paying the full cost for their own child, let alone other people’s kids.

</p>

<p>If that is the case then why the tuition has been on an increasing trends ever since these colleges have open doors.</p>

<p>This is another myth which all those who don’t pay full tuition try to explain to those who do. It is very clear for every 2 full paying students 1 need based student gets it scholarship. It is sad that the parent of those full paying student won’t get to write off these huge tuition bills from the taxes.</p>

[sybbie719]

<p>

It is very clear for every 2 full paying students 1 need based student gets it scholarship.

</p>

<p>Show me, exactly what schools do this? Go on, name schools that say for every 2 full paying families, they subsidized one need based student.</p>

[ParentOfIvyHope]

<p>

Wrong again. As a HS GC, who has been involved in the college process for many years and has gone through the process at least a 1000 times more kids than you have, I don’t have that luxury. Even the colleges themselves acknowledge that the 4 years in the classroom is more important than the standardized test.

</p>

<p>You got me wrong. What I attemped to say that both 4 years of rigorous curriculumn and performance at standardized tests are the measurement of academic success.</p>

<p>Most of the under-represented minority admissions to HMSPY falls below the general pool on both of these measurements.</p>

<p>That is why I say it is lowering of admission standards.</p>

[sybbie719]

<p>

Most of the under-represented minority admissions to HMSPY falls below the general pool on both of these measurements.

</p>

<p>I did not always work in day high school, I spent over 2 decades in corporate life and as they would say, lets manage the facts. Again, show me what colleges specifically state teh most of the URM admissions fall below the general pool. Can you prove this? Where do athletes, legacies and developmental admits fall into mix?</p>

[ParentOfIvyHope]

<p>

Show me, exactly what schools do this? Go on, name schools that say for every 2 full paying families, they subsidized one need based student.

</p>

<p>Onus is on you “sybbie719” to show that this is not the case. If the colleges is not run on the tuition at all then why charge tuition from any students at all.</p>

<p>The rising tuition cost at University of California indicates that the tuition is the foremost revenue stream of any university. If that is not the case then the tuition won’t need to increase for anyone.</p>

<p>It is documented that UCB specifically increased OOS admission to subsidized tuition of under-represented minorities.
Since HMSPY are private hence they don’t need to release their statements.</p>

[ParentOfIvyHope]

<p>

I did not always work in day high school, I spent over 2 decades in corporate life and as they would say, lets manage the facts. Again, show me what colleges specifically state teh most of the URM admissions fall below the general pool. Can you prove this? Where do athletes, legacies and developmental admits fall into mix?

</p>

<p>Again Onus on you to show it is not the case. I can take a case of UCB again to prove that this is true. Goto their website and it will list average stats of each ethenic group.</p>

<p>Since HMSPY is private hence they don’t show all what they do.</p>

[sybbie719]

<p>

Onus is on you “sybbie719” to show that this is not the case. If the colleges is not run on the tuition at all then why charge tuition from any students at all.

</p>

<p>You wrote:

It is documented that UCB specifically increased OOS admission to subsidized tuition of under-represented minorities.

</p>

<p>UCB does not give much in the way of need based aid. They give Federal aid, State aid (for eligible in state residents), but not much else in the terms on need based institutional financial aid.</p>

<p>

I can take a case of UCB again to prove that this is true. Goto their website and it will list average stats of each ethenic group.

</p>

<p>I am disputing what you said about Harvard and similar schools with a 50k price tag, that you say by virtue that you full pay, you are paying for someone else’s education.<br>
in fact you specifically wrote:</p>

<p>

This is another myth which all those who don’t pay full tuition try to explain to those who do. It is very clear for every 2 full paying students 1 need based student gets it scholarship.

</p>

<p>I responded that at these schools, tuition alone does not fully cover the cost of eduction, that everyon is getting a subsidy and I have attached statements to back up what I said.</p>

<p>So now it is on you to show facts that support what you said.</p>

<p>From Duke:</p>

<p>

No college or university can honestly state that an education at the college level is inexpensive. Fees paid by students cover less than half the cost of their instruction and the operation of the university. Income from endowment and contributions from alumni and other concerned individuals meet the balance and assure each student the opportunity to pursue an education of unusually high quality.
[Financial</a> Information](<a href=“http://registrar.duke.edu/bulletins/undergraduate/2008-09/ugbhtml/undergradbltn2008-09-11-1.html]Financial”>http://registrar.duke.edu/bulletins/undergraduate/2008-09/ugbhtml/undergradbltn2008-09-11-1.html)

</p>

<p>From Dartmouth</p>

<p>

Tuition covers about half the cost of a Dartmouth education, with the balance met primarily through income from endowment investments and annual giving
[Dartmouth</a> News - Dartmouth announces 4.6% increase in tuition, room, board and fees for 2010-2011; Smallest percentage increase in five years](<a href=“http://www.dartmouth.edu/~news/releases/2010/02/08a.html]Dartmouth”>http://www.dartmouth.edu/~news/releases/2010/02/08a.html)

</p>

<p>From Rhodes College</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>The true cost to provide a Rhodes education is approximately $50,000 per student. </p>

<p>So who pays the difference between the actual cost and the tuition charge? And who pays for the financial aid that most students require? </p>

<p>Mostly, you. The money you give to the Annual Fund, plus income generated from the endowment, including endowed scholarships/fellowships, along with student financial assistance from the federal government (Pell grants, work-study) make it possible for Rhodes students to attend classes. All education costs are subsidized. In higher education, that’s the way it’s always worked.
[Rhodes</a> College | Rhodes Magazine Archive](<a href=“http://www.rhodes.edu/155_16490.asp]Rhodes”>http://www.rhodes.edu/155_16490.asp)

</p>

<p>From Williams</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>“What is the price of a Williams education?” But the truest answer really is what you can afford to pay, up to half of what the College spends to provide it. Williams’ operating spending in 2007-08 for roughly 2,000 students was around $200 million or $100,000 per student. The comprehensive fee (which covers tuition, room, board and activities) was $45,140.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.williams.edu/alumni/docs/review/summer08/Cover_PriceOf.pdf[/url]”>http://www.williams.edu/alumni/docs/review/summer08/Cover_PriceOf.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>

</p>

<p>From Swarthmore:</p>

<p>

Tuition and fees alone do not cover the full cost of educating a student at Swarthmore, and the price of maintaining our need-blind admissions policy for every U.S. citizen continues to grow. Tuition and fees cover only about 40% of the real cost of attending Swarthmore. Every student, today as in the past, receives a “hidden scholarship” from gifts and endowment income. The Annual Fund, therefore, provides a living legacy of alumni support.</p>

<p>[Swarthmore</a> College :: Annual Giving :: Annual Giving](<a href=“http://www.swarthmore.edu/annualgiving.xml]Swarthmore”>http://www.swarthmore.edu/annualgiving.xml)

</p>

<p>From Middlebury</p>

<p>

And even students who do not get a financial aid package are heavily subsidized. Tuition and fees cover only 63 percent of the real cost of a Middlebury education.</p>

<p>[Financial</a> Aid | Middlebury](<a href=“Giving | Middlebury”>Giving | Middlebury)

</p>

<p>Moving on now and not playing anymore, since you failed to back up the “facts” to your statement as it pertains to Harvard (the original topic of your rant) you find it easier to avoid the question.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>Thanks for the thread hijack. Will someone please comment on why tennis team friendships are good but being in a jock house bad?</p>

[Cardinal_Fang]

<p>I’m guessing that ParentOfIvyHope doesn’t live in California. California residents know why the UCs are raising fees, cutting back classes, paying professors less, and cutting back expenses in other ways: because the colleges are getting less money from the state. The community colleges are doing the same thing for the same reason, and California community colleges don’t have any admission requirements to speak of.</p>

[ParentOfIvyHope]

<p>sybbie719: I didn’t want to do this but you asked for it.

Moving on now and not playing anymore, since you failed to back up the “facts” to your statement as it pertains to Harvard (the original topic of your rant) you find it easier to avoid the question.

</p>

<p>I think you are missing the point here. Suppose Harvard allocate $x from its endownment to the college yearly expenses and has a incoming batch of ‘n’ students.
Then every student gets a subsidy of $x/n.</p>

<p>Now the shortfall of Harvard annual budget is $k and so the tuition for each students get computed to
Tuition: $k/n</p>

<p>Now let us assume ‘m’ students are full paying.
since not all students are full paying students hence the eqaution to solve becomes
$K = $m*T - (n-m) * T</p>

<p>or some complex quadratic equation but solvable.</p>

<p>Which makes T for full paying students as
T = (K + n*T)/ 2 *m</p>

<p>which is now much greater than K/n.</p>

<p>I rest my case. It is a simple math if you understand.</p>

<p>And I also think you might believe that it is the government that pays for illegals Medical cost at ER and not your tax dollars.</p>

[Cardinal_Fang]

<p>What an interesting way of viewing things you have, POIH. Williams is handing out $100,000 per year educations. Some lucky students get those educations for the bargain price of $50,000 per year, some students (perhaps not so lucky, because they grew up without any money) get the educations for $0, and you think the richer group ought to complain because they aren’t getting the bargain educations even cheaper because the riffraff is sucking up “their” money? I say, nobody is entitled to any education subsidy from a private college. The richer families ought to be happy to be rich, and happy that their children are getting the generous subsidy from Williams alumni.</p>

<p>If I gave you $50 would you complain that I didn’t give you $100?</p>

[ParentOfIvyHope]

<p>

What an interesting way of viewing things you have, POIH. Williams is handing out $100,000 per year educations. Some lucky students get those educations for the bargain price of $50,000 per year, some students (perhaps not so lucky, because they grew up without any money) get the educations for $0, and you think the richer group ought to complain because they aren’t getting the bargain educations even cheaper because the riffraff is sucking up “their” money? I say, nobody is entitled to any education subsidy from a private college. The richer families ought to be happy to be rich, and happy that their children are getting the generous subsidy from Williams alumni.</p>

<p>If I gave you $50 would you complain that I didn’t give you $100?

</p>

<p>You are taking a wrong view. Every student is getting $75/$100 from the college and full paying student is not only paying $25/$100 for them selves but also for the student getting the need based money.</p>

<p>Not everyone who pays full tuition is Bill gates or Kennedey or Bush. There are lots of hardworking families who endup paying full tuition just because they have been better managers of their lives than other families.</p>

[barrons]

<p>Cost does not equal value even if those amounts are accurate. There might be rampant waste and overimprovements.</p>

[ParentOfIvyHope]

<p>

If I gave you $50 would you complain that I didn’t give you $100?

</p>

<p>if I tell you that I’m selling services which are for $100 but provide you for $50 but to another person endup providing the same service for $0 then what do you think about the actual value of the service.</p>

<p>If I’ve not provided the service for $0 to another person I would have provided the service to you for $25.</p>

<p>Which in turns prove that I charged you for providing a $0 service to another person.</p>

<p>It is a very simple math and I don’t know why it is so difficult to comprehend.</p>

[ellebud]

<p>First of all, Pizzagirl, why is one more “acceptable” (tennis team versus sorority) than the other? It is pc, that’s why. Joining Hillel is supposedly more open, but if you don’t click with someone or a group you still won’t attend. I think that there are many people for whom sorority or fraternity are buzz words for everything they hate: conservative, elitist, white bastions of exclusion. Some people won’t look inside the system and see it for what it is: different on all campuses, different in every house, different with every person.</p>

<p>I believe that this comes under the philosophy of: I know what I know. Don’t confuse me with the facts.</p>

[paying3tuitions]

<p>There’s no pc, and the reason Hillel seems more open is because it is more open. </p>

<p>Hillel, which serves the needs of Jewish students, is not a sorority or fraternity. NonJews attend activities.
Hillel has no residence houses, dues, rush or pledging, or peer process to determine inclusion. You don’t de-activate. I can’t quite understand why Hillel is even mentioned in this thread about sororities.</p>

<p>Hillel is more like the Newman Center, which serves the spiritual needs of Catholic college students on campus, but is not a Catholic sorority that determines peoples’ memberships, in or out.</p>

<p>For a Jewish sorority, think of (for example) AEPhi, but not Hillel. Mentioning Hillel twists the logic of this thread, since it’s a campus-wide religious organization, not a sorority chapter.</p>

[Cardinal_Fang]

<p>

conservative, elitist, white bastions of exclusion.

</p>

<p>Whether fraternities and sororities are elitist is open to debate. The rest, however, is factual. On average, sorority members and fraternity members are whiter, richer and more conservative than college students as a whole. Sororities and fraternities do exclude some students who wish to join them.</p>

[ellebud]

<p>The point of mentioning Hillel, or ANY group on campus or in life, is that is where some people draw from as their primary circle of friends. And that is a good thing. However, if after joining one fails to connect with the core circle (as in any organization), one tends to lose interest and “deactivate” so to speak. Sorry, but there are fees for joining and participating: whatever activity you choose you must pay for it. Sorority or Hillel or Newman Center or … </p>

<p>Hillel is an interest group. Robotics is an interest group. Newspaper is a group. The editor may not like you. You won’t get the assignments. You leave. You may love the editor and have a wonderful time.</p>

<p>And, you still don’t get it: there are many girls who want just one or two houses. They drop out if they don’t get the houses of their dreams. But the huge odds are that if you go all the way through recruitment, you will get a house. It maybe, the “loser” house, according to campus lore, but you do belong. And you can make it better. Life and sororities are sort of what you make it. And there are many schools, UCLA for example, that if you go all through recruitment you are guarenteed placement.</p>

<p>And, as a proud AEPhi alum who’s house was, during the 70s, a truely liberal house that continued our tradition of breaking the religious and racial barriers of the time I must tell you: You rather be self rightous and wrong than to find out the truth. Every school is different, every house if different Just for the record being “more conservative” doesn’t make you wrong, unless you can’t tolerate political differences. And, I’ll be sure and tell my daughter’s sisters that they are secretly white (even if they are African American, Asian, and Latino) and that they are whatever stereotype that you are serving despite the fact that they are lovely young women, some of whom (I am now including all the girls of all backgrounds) who are on scholarships and some who are wealthy…and some who are just inbetween.</p>