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<p>That seems to vary very much by campus. As far as I can see, at some schools every young woman who continues to the end gets a bid, but at other schools, including some big publics, a third of the women do not get bids.</p>
<p>The reason I brought up Hillel was in response to a discussion a bit upthread (before the POIH/sybbie-stuff that my eyes glazed over at) talking about how the Greek system inhibits getting to know a diverse group of people. Hanna was talking about the House system at Harvard, where you still do activities through your house, and jonri said that some sororities tended to be segregated – citing the “Jewish house” or the “jock house” as examples.</p>
<p>While diversity of experiences is a good goal, people also like organizations where they share some common interest – otherwise extracurriculars would also be assigned as randomly as dorm roommates are assigned.</p>
<p>And Hillel <em>is</em> the right comparison here. If you’re going to object to the Greek system because there winds up being a Jewish house and a jock house and those girls all hang together and don’t experience the diversity of what the campus has to offer, then I don’t see what’s different about making friends through Hillel or through the tennis team. </p>
<p>Some of you will say, “Well, Hillel and the tennis team don’t have houses” but that’s an irrelevant argument, since after freshman year most people can pick their roommates. Some of you also completely overstate the importance of living in a Greek house as an influencer. You’re not tethered to the place, you know. You are actually allowed to come and go as you please and participate in what other activities you happen to like.</p>
<p>I see the difference as this - Hillel will accept any Jewish student who wishes to investigate their offerings, for as long as the student is willing to give them a try. This can happen any time during a school year.</p>
<p>If a student finds the reception chilly, they could decide not to go back, but they could ALSO decide to give it another chance. Some people just don’t make a great first impression, but become much more likable once they have worked together with others on projects, or after they have gotten a better chance to see what an organization expects from them, or after they seem to click better with the people they approach on a second or third visit. On its part, Hillel does not limit membership to a certain number, although individual events might be limited to “first come, first served.”</p>
<p>Jewish sororities can and do cut girls (even Jewish girls who end up pledging elsewhere) after as little as one brief “party.” It is sometimes very difficult to understand why one girl is cut, but not another.</p>
<p>I would imagine matters can quickly become unpleasant on a small campus with one or two Jewish houses, if members of the Greek houses ALSO hold all the leadership positions within the campus Hillel, for a girl who is seeking Jewish experiences at college, and who was cut from the Jewish house. Such a girl could end up very unhappy, could decide to transfer, or could become alienated from Jewish life.</p>
<p>I am not just picking on Jews here, folks, nor am I saying that things are like this everywhere. I would guess that the set-up would be similar with other ethnic groups.</p>
<p>I think the big lesson from this thread is that in choosing schools, students and parents should be asking some very specific questions about Greek organizations AT THAT SCHOOL, beyond the percentage of students who are Greek.</p>
<p>Disclaimer - I was not Greek myself, and chose my LAC partly because there were no sororities. But, the cliques of girls at my school were nevertheless quite nasty, seemed to form by the middle of freshman year, and rejected girls for very superficial reasons that included family wealth and ethnic or religious persuasion.</p>
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<p>I think you’re imagining this. I think you’re envisioning something where once a girl is cut, she’s on a black list, she has a black cloud over her head that says “Cut from AEPhi” and so current members are obligated to or want to snub her as they run into her in classes or other extracurriculars. It’s simply not the case. </p>
<p>To be honest, the biggest reason girls are cut isn’t because anyone thinks anything “bad” about them – the majority of girls are, obviously, nice people – but there might not be a spark or connection with anyone. </p>
<p>Haven’t you ever gone to an event (let’s say a PTA meeting) where you chatted with people who were nice enough, but you didn’t walk away with “I want to get to know you better”?
So maybe you don’t invite them out for coffee the next day with the intent of being BFF’s, (you’re “cutting” them), but that doesn’t mean you wouldn’t be perfectly happy, willing and able to work with them on the school carnival committee. You have nothing against them – they may not just be what you think is BFF material. Same thing here.</p>
<p>The biggest myth you guys seem to have is that cutting girls means that you have to Hate Them Forever and toss your blonde hair whenever they walk by, and certainly never sit next to them in French class or acknowledge them at a party. </p>
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<p>Hmmm – girls formed exclusive, non-diverse groups without a Greek system. Who would have guessed! What does that tell you about human nature?</p>
<p>“I think the big lesson from this thread is that in choosing schools, students and parents should be asking some very specific questions about Greek organizations AT THAT SCHOOL, beyond the percentage of students who are Greek.”</p>
<p>That’s very good advice.</p>
<p>Absolutely. There are Greek systems I wouldn’t want my D to touch with a ten-foot pole, and there are Greek systems where I’d say “Sure, go ahead! Why not, give it a try and see what you think!” </p>
<p>Too bad USNews doesn’t publish a list :-)</p>
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<p>And at the schools where a third do not get a bid, it is not the fault of the girls in the sororities! I think this is important to remember, and that resentment is unfairly targeted at those who are in. </p>
<p>At schools where this is happening, the Panhellenic council should be seeking to colonize new chapters, to accommodate all interested girls. Someone more knowledgeable than me can better explain this, but my understanding is that the reason this doesn’t happen is because there are no available facilities for new chapters, or the university will not approve additional houses. It is not because the girls in the houses don’t want every girl to pledge a house. There are limits to how many pledges each house can accept, and at these schools, every house is most likely taking the maximum number possible.</p>
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<p>Why do you think that sororities are more conservative than college students as whole just because they do exclude some students who wish to join them?</p>
<p>The exclusion might be based on nothing more than the compatibility. The % of students at HMSPY of under-represented minorities is far more than that seen in the real corporate world.</p>
<p>The reason is that in the real corporate world no one gives you additional preference because you are an under-represented minority at the company. Between different candidates you might be preferred for being a blonde white man followed by blonde white female followed by other good looking persons before anyone else. That is the reality in USA or for that matter anywhere in the world. Good looks and strong personality go much further than just raw intelligence in the corporate world. That is why there are as many CEO’s from Community College (no college) or state colleges as there are from HMSPY.</p>
<p>The sooner you understand this the sooner you will be able to prepare yourself and your children for the real world. Life is not fair and one need to prepare to deal with it.</p>
<p>… still remembering that desire to “hobnob with snobs”</p>
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<p>Right. Part of the strength of a house is how big it is. Each house WANTS more members, not fewer. A house not filling quota is seen as a bad thing for the house – it didn’t attract enough girls – not a good thing – “oh how look how exclusive we are, we cut everyone.”</p>
<p>I don’t remember whether any of the sororities at my school had trouble filling their quota. We never did. A new sorority came on campus my freshman year and it was tough for them as girls from other schools had to come and recruit so it was a real leap of faith for the first class in particular. The way the sorority judged its success is how far down the bid list they had to go to fill the quota. That varied from year to year as 4 of the sororities seemed to chase many of the same girls.</p>
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<p>I didn’t say that, and I certainly don’t believe anything of the kind. </p>
<p>Sorority women on average hold more conservative views than the general college population, particularly on gender roles, as do fraternity men. Here’s one scholarly article on the subject:</p>
<p>[SpringerLink</a> - Journal Article](<a href=“http://www.springerlink.com/content/jn1828228vnrm288/]SpringerLink”>http://www.springerlink.com/content/jn1828228vnrm288/)</p>
<p>That is a fact, and is neither good nor bad. And it shouldn’t be a shock to anyone either: sorority women like to get dressed up in feminine clothing, put on makeup and go out to social functions with their associated fraternities? Stop the presses.</p>
<p>Sorority girls may like to get dressed up in feminine clothing, but it doesn’t mean they don’t thrive and compete in men’s world, and even kick their behind.</p>
<p>I tell my daughters that they could be the prettiest women in the boardroom and also be the smartest.</p>
<p>They can kick their behinds in a pair of Manolo Blahnik’s ;)</p>
<p>CardinalFang,
I can only read the abstract, not the entire article that you linked, but it does not seem to be saying anything about sorority girls being more conservative.</p>
<p>In fact, it concludes that GDIs who pray once a week condemn homosexuality more than the sorority gals! Although truthfully, I would like to examine the sample in this particular study before I could generalize results.</p>
<p>The sorority women in this study (and in various other studies that I didn’t link to) hold views that are on the conservative side. I don’t conclude that they therefore will not be successful; with a moment’s thought, I can name many successful conservative women. I also don’t conclude that because sororities tend conservative and conventional, other groups, such as students who pray, won’t be even more conservative and conventional.</p>
<p>I’m not saying anything either surprising or derogatory here. Sorority women are not a random cross-section of the female student population. They have certain things in common, things that led them to want to be sorority members. Their potential sisters saw that they had those commonalities and chose them for the sororities. Here I agree with Pizzagirl: I do not condemn students because they join like-minded groups.</p>
<p>Liking to dress nicely and go out with boyfriends hardly seems linked with “adherence to traditional gender roles.”</p>
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<p>A woman who dresses up, puts on makeup and goes on a date with a man is adhering to a traditional gender role.</p>