Disagreement over community college

<p>And “heavily disdained” is inaccurate.</p>

<p>If a kid in my area wanted professional certification in an area of Allied Health which does not require a BS degree, attending Norwalk Community College would be a fine (and cost effective) path. If his or her sibling wanted to become an MD or a dentist, or do pharma research as a PhD, starting at NCC would likely prolong the time-frame (and the amount of money required) to get there.</p>

<p>Sometimes the folks in the Northeast are just being pragmatic. A kid who wants med school eventually and doesn’t have the money to pay for it is better served by ROTC and a four year university than starting at a CC, having to transfer, discovering that some of the classes need to be retaken, then having to do remedial work prior to taking the MCAT’s due to weak CC prep in chemistry, etc.</p>

<p>We’re not disdainful. We’re practical. Many of the Northeast CC’s are a fantastic solution to a working adult who needs more training in a particular area. (Computer skills. Foreign language.) Many of them are superb for accreditation. They can help a mid-career professional re-tool at low cost (don’t start an MBA program without taking the first sequence in accounting or finance- if you can’t pass Finance 101 you are NOT going to do well in B-school!) But many of them are most assuredly NOT a local and convenient version of a research university which happens to be on the bus line. The course offerings are limited. The focus is pre-professional. They were not designed to replace the first two years of a university education.</p>

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See "From Community College to Medical School: Step by Step Instructions for Success (2013) " <a href=“https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80_ktyATKEU”>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80_ktyATKEU&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p><a href=“http://admissions.uconn.edu/content/transfer/course-equivalencies#/school/Norwalk%20Community%20College”>http://admissions.uconn.edu/content/transfer/course-equivalencies#/school/Norwalk%20Community%20College&lt;/a&gt; lists transfer equivalencies from Norwalk Community College to University of Connecticut. Included in the accepted courses are general chemistry, general biology, math through calculus 3, linear algebra, and differential equations, physics for biology majors, and physics for engineers. Pre-meds would only need to “catch up” on organic chemistry, though medical schools may prefer it to have at least some pre-med courses taken at a four year school (so no big deal to have to wait until after transfer to take organic chemistry).</p>

<p>It is true that many NCC courses listed will only transfer as elective credit, rather than as specific UConn courses. However, a student starting at NCC could consult the transfer course equivalency lists to ensure taking courses that are equivalent to any needed specific UConn courses.</p>

<p>Transferring your elective credits to Storrs typically means at least an extra semester or in most cases an extra year. UCB- how many kids do you know at NCC? (I know dozens who have moved through it in the last decade). Your cavalier advice to “consult the transfer course equivalency list” often means trying to take courses which meet simultaneously (hard to do, even in Connecticut); trying to take a course which is offered Fall semester when you haven’t yet taken the pre-requisite (impossible to do), etc. You are assuming a campus brimming with bright young things who will spend two years in Norwalk before heading to the state flagship. Take a visit- it is a campus filled with adults balancing full time work and part time college; kids whose HS prep was inadequate to get them admitted to one of the state directionals; kids who are not ready for a full credit college semester but are slowly easing their way into college level work; etc.</p>

<p>Residents of the other 49 states can call this “disdainful”. I have enormous respect for the kids and faculty at NCC, but it is NOT like the California system, and it would be very hard to show up at our flagship ready to graduate in two years as a competitive applicant coming out of community college without having to do an extra semester or in most cases, an extra year or more. We are not disdainful but we are not naive. And picking through the website to find equivalencies is not the same as actually trying to schedule those courses in the right time and sequence.</p>

<p>Great prep for pharmacy or PT/OT btw. But a pharmacist is not a physician last time I checked.</p>

<p>I have the unique? experience of having taken intro level courses at a high end state flagship (UMinn) and similar classes at what would be considered a JC/CC in Wisconsin.</p>

<p>You people have some serious stereo-typing problems with JC/CC students. While there are some there because they didn’t have the grades, many are there due to money and they are highly motivated and driven to succeed at the next level. </p>

<p>The courses also tend to be small. That fosters more interaction among the students much like one would find at an ‘elite’ school.</p>

<p>Intro level history and comp classes are often taught in large lecture halls at big universities. 1000 kids in a room, it matters how the professors teaches. You peers are nothing in that environment except perhaps as a distraction.</p>

<p>My point about the intro level classes was also more geared toward those looking to ‘check the box’ for those classes. If you are STEM student, you often just want the grade in the non-STEM courses and to move on. The dirty little secret is that a many CC type school, they learn despite themselves because the classes are small. </p>

<p>Another advantage if you think you child is smarter than everyone else is that it should give them an opportunity to lead rather than to be one of the sheeple at many big schools. </p>

<p>^Torveaux, I’m glad you had a good experience in your gen ed classes at a CC, but I can assure you that it is NOT the norm in humanities classes. The norm is students not having done the reading, period. In most cases, 2 kids and the prof can handle the discussion. How about students who care so much about the class they don’t show up for exams, including the final? (Granted, that also happens at directionals). And I’ve known CC’s elsewhere than in the Northeast or the MidAtlantic. Even in California, and even in the best CC’s, only about 40-50% kids transfer to 4-year universities. At other CC’s, it’s 10-15%. The majority of OP’s peers would be kids with low class ranks (admissions in TX is rank-based) who would not even make it to the AA or AS.
A good community college for an adult will offer classes that will efficiently allow them to change careers or upgrade their skills.
That is not what a kid who is qualified for UT Austin without cap needs either intellectually or for general growth.</p>

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<p>Well… Duh. Many students at CCs aren’t looking to transfer to university. If you take Calc and Physics you’re in with a group who is looking to transfer to CC. If you take HVAC you’re in with a group who isn’t looking to transfer to CC. Did this really need to be explained? </p>

<p>@guineagirl96 My has told me the exact same thing. Well she said if I don’t get a full scholarship then I have to go to a community college. Not that I have anything against that…I just REALLY, REALLY do not want to go to CC</p>

<p>Our local California CC has been rated #1 community college in the nation, and we have a lot of advanced HS students who take classes there and through dual-enrollment on the HS campus. Despite this, I’d say that it is true that the HS students are often the more advanced students in a classroom, particularly for more introductory classes. The faculty are reputed to be quite good.</p>

<p>My son took Intro to Biology there the summer before 9th grade, and had the top grade in the class. Somewhere on a gifted ed website (can’t find it now), I read the quote, “If you are the top student in a class, you need to find a new class.” That said, the bio class was taught at a reasonably high level. The lecture content seemed pretty close to the AP Bio content but more on the molecular and less on the ecological. The lab portion was a little rushed to fit it into 6 weeks (18 hrs/week) over the summer, so he didn’t take the (revised) AP Bio exam. But, biology is not generally a discussion class. He’ll be taking World History there this fall. The professor is supposed to be very good; we’ll see about the level of class discussion.</p>

<p>Regarding non-intro classes, I’ve heard from HS kids that the Linear Algebra class is very good even compared to the UCSB class (semester vs. quarter helps). I’ve taken non-introductory programming classes at that CC (years ago), and the teaching was very good–better than other programming classes I took through UCSB Extension. Many of the students were adults wanting to further their skills (evening class), and they raised the level of class discussion.</p>

<p>You missed the forest for the trees, methinks. Class size and instructor to student ratio is every bit as important as the motivations and abilities of some of the other students. I agreed earlier that this student would more likely be happier at the bigger school, but the math may not work out for it. The key here is that the difference is not nearly as wide as many here want to believe.</p>

<p>Thank you, @blossom, for proving that I am not delusional.</p>

<p>Unless we both are. :)</p>

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<p>Yep, I get that. I’m just saying if that’s the case here, the dad should consider living by the OTHER “golden rule.” :)</p>

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<p>Actually, I believe the original intent was that they would. Community colleges were suggested as far back as the mid-1890’s as 2-year feeder schools for a 4-year university in Texas. The World Wars and the Depression created different markets with different needs, so the implementation was different in many places, but the idea was there.</p>

<p>My daughter is in the top 10% of her class, graduated a year early with her first year of CC done. We have chosed to send her away to a another CC. FIRST: it is 5 hours away and has a great campus feel to it. We have decided this. so she does have the chance to grown in her independence, she does not lose her CC credits. as often classes will not transfer to the University level, but associate degrees will. We do not want her to get lost, she is already two years ahead. We want her to grow as an individual and feel the smaller classes, etc will help her achieve that. We have been to the school several times and feel wonderful about our choice. She already knows her next step, and frankly the one after that. She got a lot of advice from others in the masters program she wants, and they all said, spread your education around, go to different schools, do not stay in one place. </p>

<p>On a side note, met a friend of a friend recently, we all stated talking, and he said he knew someone who went to community college, transferred to a University, then went to YALE for his Master’s Guess what his Degree says? LOL… for a fraction of the cost. I have a relative who did the same thing, but went to Oxford… and he is very successful now. </p>

<p>fajameka, there are those who would solve the issue of potentially getting lost at a large U by choosing a LAC instead. There are those who would try to close the maturity gap of a young student by taking a gap year. There are many paths and many schools. Some CCs are great places to spend the first two years of college or take advanced classes in HS. Some are not, but they are great for vocational training and Associate degrees and certificate programs. Some are both. I think most of us know this.</p>

<p>In the end, to me, it is not the name on the degree that matters most, but the educational and personal experience of the student who earned it. Having a master’s degree from Yale is great. But that student didn’t have the Yale undergraduate experience. Maybe what he had was better for him. If so, that’s womderful. I hope his graduate program was a fulfilling experience. If not, he’d be better off with another name on the diploma, IMHO. </p>

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I’ve done several recommendation letters for students in my years as an adjunct.

It depends on the CC system. I attended a CC with a very good Pre-Engineering reputation and made a seamless transition to the State U.</p>

<p>Not saying CC/U route is the best option for this D, but there is a lot of misinfo being presented here.</p>

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My kids’ community college has 2+2 program for engineering and the CC do have the first two years technical courses like 4-years schools.</p>

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<p>This varies by state. Note that at Texas A&M you couldn’t do 2+2 in some of the STEM fields without some luck and summer study (more likely 2+3). As an example looking at their stated petroleum engineering requirements - one freshman course (PETE201) and multiple sophomore courses are not available at the various local community colleges so scheduling would get tough. See</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.pe.tamu.edu/academics/Catalogs/PETE_curriculum_133.pdf”>http://www.pe.tamu.edu/academics/Catalogs/PETE_curriculum_133.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Even at Blinn (the CC feeder school to A&M), engineering admission is not guaranteed, and those I met did not graduate on time from A&M.</p>

<p>Similarly a quick glance at University of Texas requirements for the same major shows one Freshman course and three Sophomore courses that would not be available at most or all Texas community colleges. See</p>

<p><a href=“Custom 404 page”>Custom 404 page;

<p>It is much easier to imagine graduating on time with (only) a year rather than 2 years at CC (in Texas) for Engineering based on the published curriculum for these two. Similar comparisons could be made for Mechanical Engineering, Biomedical etc.</p>

<p>agree with @consolation. If all you think that matters is the name of the school on the terminal degree, you are missing what many think should be the point of the undergraduate experience. It is not always just a “pre-professional” mill. In the best cases it is much much more than that. But I am necessarily biased, as I went to a LAC (followed by Ph.D.).</p>