Discrimination against English speaking US natives

Test Preparation SAT Preparation
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<p>maikai, you’re missing the point.</p>

<p>The point is that the USA can only profit from foreign students . </p>

<p>Being a taxpayer doesn’t oblige your country to give you an education you don’t deserve. When you get accepted into an university , the government invests in your education and expects that after you graduate, you’ll be a realiable tax-payer which will contribute to the overall welfare.</p>

<pre><code>So it doesn’t matter from which continent you come or what’s the color of your skin. As long as you’re willing to work and study hard , you’ll appeal to the US as a fecund tax-payer who will help sustaining the country’s well-being.
</code></pre>

<p>You might pay taxes throughout your whole life , but be nothing than an office clerk because in high school you were the negligent type. A country isn’t driven by office clerks. </p>

<p>Oh , and a fun fact: Have you heard of the American Green Card lottery? Well , it’s not really a lottery. Most of the people who win green cards are usually graduates of medicine , law , engineering , economics or any other prominent academic study.</p>

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<p>I’m not an international student, but isn’t TOEFL really hard? I don’t believe that it’s simply proving that one can speak and write English; it’s actually much more difficult than that (if I’m correct) and I’m pretty sure many American students would have trouble with it. My point is, doesn’t it render the OP’s argument pointless if the SAT substitute that international students take is even harder?</p>

<p>From what I’m reading, parts of TOEFL sound an awful lot like SAT CR/Writing, only harder since the passages are on the level of “undergraduate textbooks.”</p>

<p>I don’t mean to be combative or aggressive, but I just wanted this stated.</p>

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<p>Dude. It’d be discriminating if they were forced to take American tests. Colleges are smart and account for these things.</p>

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<p>Too bad most of the international students are basically “required” to pay the full price. Many state schools don’t require SAT scores from international students. However, it is extremely unlikely that these students will get any scholarships/aid. I can’t imagine paying 40-55k on merely “state” school level education, which isn’t really well-regarded by many people. Look at the situation this way: the international students are just paying their way into colleges, and this practice has been around for quite a while in this country.</p>

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<p>As someone who plans to attend a school that happens to have a large international student population, I’d like to ask you to take a moment to think about the BENEFITS of having international students on campus.</p>

<p>For one, meeting someone from another country and seeing how different their life was from yours is a truly educational experience. And knowing how far they traveled and how much they and their family may have sacrificed in order to attend your school makes you appreciate your education all the more. The job market is a global one, why shouldn’t education have the same sort of environment? A diverse environment teaches tolerance and cultural understanding.</p>

<p>Secondly, a student making 500s on the SAT after living in the United States for their entire lives is in no way superior to an international student with a decent TOEFL score. Because the TOEFL only measures English skills, the colleges are likely to place a greater emphasis on international student’s grades and other indicators of academic success.</p>

<p>Thirdly, the full out-of-state tuition that the international students are paying is foreign money that is going directly into the college’s budget, and indirectly allowing scholarships for U.S. students. It’s money that wasn’t in the U.S. before, that will then be invested in what is STILL PRIMARILY U.S. students’ educations.</p>

<p>I don’t hear any complaints about the out-of-state American students whose parents don’t pay taxes! Any student from New Jersey, etc. who attends a SUNY/CUNY is no different, except that they are taking the same tests as New Yorkers.</p>

<p>I see it as part of the American dream. Amazing students from all around the world work work hard enough in high school, and if they are lucky enough to have the finances for it, or the superb stats for a scholarship, they will attend a school across the ocean where they will find new friends in students that are hopefully more excited to meet them than the OP would be…</p>

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<p>@cheerioswithmilk
TOEFL cannot supersede SAT. </p>

<p>As stated above , TOEFL only tests your level of bilinguism . It doesn’t test critical thinking or anything of the matter. It also does not test any skills you’ve acquired in high school. I’ve done the SAT and the TOEFL within a month difference and practicing for both has proven to be incompatible. (that’s one reason I made 110 on TOEFL and a mere 1900 on SAT)</p>

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<h1>17, OP is a professor/lecturer at SUNY.</h1>

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<p>

I LOLed at this statement. How do you make them US residents?</p>

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<p>This is the parochial view which most of the people have here (and also those who believe in conspiracy theories and other bogus). Yeah, they’re worth the satire but there’s a drop of truth in their opinion.</p>

<p>How would they become US citizens? Well , let’s put it this way :
Do you know anyone from a third-world country who has been accepted in college to go back into his miserable home after graduation?</p>

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<p>Yes, see link below.
[Barack</a> Obama - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama]Barack”>Barack Obama - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>

</p>

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<p>Holy cow! Some of you really need to find out some facts before you let your fingers walk the keyboard.</p>

<p>Marvin100,
(…and any others that think in-State students are being subsidized…)
“Paying Top Dollar” at Binghamton, one of the State schools mentioned in this thread, costs barely over $15K for full cost tuition for foreigners! Nobody can rationally argue that $15K is enough to subsidize any other students.</p>

<p>I live in New York and have visited several SUNY schools and asked many questions about the tuition. As a New York taxpayer, I was curious. I’m not fully versed in the laws that formed the system, but I believe they are barred from using student tuition as a profit center. </p>

<p>To arrive at the tuition, they essentially divide up all the on-going financial liabilities and divide by the number of students. That is an over simplification, of course, but it is essentially how it’s done. </p>

<p>Out of State students and/or foreign students simply pay that number… no more, no less. New Yorkers get a discounted rate which the State subsidizes. Foreigners and out of State students are NOT used as a profit center to make education for locals more affordable. It is difficult for me to believe anyone can seriously think that, especially in light of the extremely low “Top Dollar” cost of tuition. </p>

<p>I personally think it’s a good idea to have National and International diversity in our schools. It is an opportunity for the out-of-State and foreign students to receive an excellent education at one third the price they would pay anywhere else. </p>

<p>It’s also an opportunity for the New York students to be in a diversified environment and expose the rest of the Country (and the World) to our “correct opinions” on everything! So send us your kids. We’ll brain-wash 'em real good, then send them back!!! :-)</p>

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<p>maikai: I don’t know about the SUNYs specifically (other than the fact that they’re excellent schools and a very good deal), but this article reveals that exactly what I described is common at many state institutions:
<a href=“International Students Pay Top Dollar at U.S. Colleges - The New York Times”>International Students Pay Top Dollar at U.S. Colleges - The New York Times;

<p>(I’ll also add that I think many schools’ courting of int’l students is problematic–the very top schools, though, are extremely tough for int’l kids, far tougher than for US citizens, which I also find problematic…it’s a complex and interesting issue and reflects actual demographic changes happening at a rate policy and planning hasn’t kept up with)</p>

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<p>marvin100: A <em>very</em> poorly reported story. It starts off with throwing mud at Washington University, without any data to back up the claims, then uses that brush to paint broad strokes over the entire country’s colleges and universities. </p>

<p>$28K is still only a fraction of what one would normally pay to a top 50 National University. It’s surprising to me, because it’s almost 100% more than what New York charges out of state students, but to accuse the University of Washington of gold digging without any cost reporting at all is a stretch… and exceedingly poor reporting, IMHO.</p>

<p>No mention is made that the $28K charged to these foreign students is exactly the same price as charged to out of state students. The article implies $28K is gouging They just let their statement and it’s implications hang out there as if it’s a premium charged only to foreigners. That is a lie of omission, IMHO. </p>

<p>Call me old-school, but I still believe reporters should be dedicated to providing researched and accurate news, not a bunch of baseless claims and/or one sided views meant only to inflame people and sell papers.</p>

<p>I’d be interested in the justifications for the $1K and $2.5K charges from the other universities. I’ll bet there are some very reasonable explanations, like translator costs or costs for additional verification, etc… China is already notorious for spoofing tests. Many Chinese children applying never took the exams nor wrote the essays they are submitting. And don’t start on GPAs. The Chinese school system is corrupt, a 4.0 means nothing other than the parents had the money to pay off the local admins. 20-20 or some such news magazine just did a piece on it. And here’s a link to a white paper on the subject.
<a href=“WIEC”>WIEC;

<p>Here are some of the findings from the research:
 Cheating is pervasive in China, driven by hyper-competitive parents and aggressive agents. Our research indicates that 90% of recommendation letters are fake, 70% of essays are not written by the applicant, and 50% of high school transcripts are falsified.
 Chinese applicants typically cheat in 5 major categories: recommendation letters, essays, high school transcripts, financial aid applications, and awards.
 American programs have 6 ways to fight back: hire a “covert” admissions staffer from mainland China, interview all attractive applicants from China, consider “spot tests” of English, request official transcripts directly (or simply ignore them), hire a Chinese lawyer to verify financial need, and develop a policy on exposing fraud publicly.</p>

<p>The sad fact is it’s easy for foreigners to scam our system. The controls for our system are ONLY in place in the United States. The American colleges and universities don’t want to shut out foreign students. That’s like throwing the baby out with the bath water. So what are they to do? Who should pay for these extra costs, driven by cheating foreigners? Of course we are starting to see extra fees for foreigners. This is not gold digging. These charges reflect the extra efforts/work that needs to go into a foreign student’s application consideration.</p>

<p>I agree with the OP’s initial complaint, foreigners should indeed be held to the same standards US children are measured against. That’s only fair. I just don’t see any other issues here.</p>

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<p>You say that $28k is a fraction of the cost of a top national university, but that’s misleading–almost no colleges offer need-blind or need-based aid for int’l kids (and the ones that offer aid offer very, very little), whereas top schools offer tons of aid for US kids. If you look here [Best</a> Values in Private Colleges, 2011-12](<a href=“http://www.kiplinger.com/tools/privatecolleges/]Best”>Kiplinger | Personal Finance News, Investing Advice, Business Forecasts) you’ll see that although those schools have stratospheric tuition and fees, most students pay very little. Princeton, for instance charges over $50k, but the average student gets $34k in aid. The int’l student pays the full $50k. Williams charges $55k but the average student gets $39k in aid–int’l students are not among them (with very few exceptions). </p>

<p>Again, I don’t know the details for SUNYs, but very few US citizens pay full fare at most top schools (I sure didn’t!)–int’l kids do, and that $ is valuable to colleges and is likely the driver behind the rush for int’l kids that we see at a lot of second- and third-tier colleges (and beyond: [North</a> Dakota’s Chinese Diploma Mill by Daniel Luzer | Washington Monthly](<a href=“http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/blog/north_dakotas_chinese_diploma.php]North”>http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/blog/north_dakotas_chinese_diploma.php) ).</p>

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<p>Very interesting. You’re making a good point with the lack of aid.</p>

<p>Please direct me to where it says the colleges you mention do not provide any financial aid to foreign students.</p>

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<p>Well, I work in this area and have for over a decade, so I know from lots of research, but if you look on those schools’ sites you’ll find the info. There’s no central list afaik, but very, very few schools are even need-blind for int’l kids (P’ton, Middlebury…um…not even sure there are others anymore…Amherst may still be…)</p>

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<p>I think Binghamton allows foreign students to substitute TOEFL for the SAT reasoning test, but requires international students to submit SAT II subject tests related to the area they will be studying. For example, in the engineering program I think they require internationals to submit the SAT subject Math II plus another science subject. The TOEFL is a substitute for the SAT verbal only.</p>

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<p>marvin100,<br>
Well, although I’d rather see the financial aid practices for foreign students substantiated somewhere, I’ll take your word on this. </p>

<p>This financial aid angle is the only angle that works for me with regards to accusing schools of taking a bigger payday when admitting foreign students. The rest seems like incredibly bad reporting…or newspapers and magazines intentionally sensationalizing a story to sell more copies.</p>