The reason why there are not so many Asian students is that, Notre Dame takes it Catholic identity seriously. Asian parents wouldn’t like there kids to go to a religious school since most of them are atheists or agnostics. They love the secular Ivy league schools or MIT UCLA schools like that. They want their kids to go to the schools that everyone knows so they can brag about it. I’m Asian (Chinese) and denied. At first my parents really didn’t understand why I love ND so much. I’m not complaining because I know that I’m not qualified enough.
@intparent Being Catholic does make a difference but if your scores are low (like mine, 1960, 4.0), it still doesn’t help much. Some of you may know my story. I’m Catholic who grew up in China with atheists parents. My grandfather was a closet Christian and when I was 14 battling with depression, I found a Christian book he had left on the bookshelf, that’s how I discovered Christianity. I moved to America a year after that and now I’m studying at a small Catholic school. I’m getting baptized on Saturday and in the future I’m going to preach. Beautiful story, right? Well, that didn’t help me to get in. If I had 2200+ on my SAT, I am sure that I will have better chance.
Yes, of course. But the OP was asking for possible reasons for rejection. And this is one of them.
@wneely16 The 200 hours was my son’s high school’s requirement for recommendation there. His high school is very difficult about ND and wants to control who applies.
Our non-Catholic, non-legacy, unhooked white S was pretty much the cookie cutter overachiever applicant. Exceptional grades, scores, sports, leadership, ECs, rigor, community service. (Never was much into the arts though, so no music or theater.) I figure he got as good of counselor/teacher recommendations as one gets from a large public high school.
In other words, he was JUST LIKE most every candidate applying to elite schools.
But the more I read on these threads, the more I am convinced his essays were what set him apart. He never suffered great life hardships, yet has a truly empathetic view of the world. And a desire to make a dent in it using free market forces and his intellect. ND, more than virtually any other school to which he applied, offered essay prompts that really gave him a chance to show his passion from that perspective. “What’s broken?” “What question fascinates you?”
OP, perhaps your son, while apparently a stellar student, simply didn’t draw a clear picture of a uniquely desirable addition to the new class. Or maybe he simply lives in the wrong place. Everything is not about racism and, frankly, I’m getting a little bored with those who want to attribute every failure to it.
Too many people on CC simply think it’s all about scores and checked boxes – but I do not believe that cuts the mustard at Notre Dame. It is a “special” place that seeks special kids. Do some fall through the cracks? Certainly. But the system cannot be perfect. They are not using robots to pick robots.
S was accepted EA and pre-admitted to Mendoza.
@Ruby789 I plan to do all of these things. I’m sending a lengthy E-mail about why I’m still committed to ND as my number one pick to the admissions rep for my state tomorrow (still in the process of writing and perfecting it). Also, I talked to my school guidance counselor this morning, and she said she would write a letter vouching for me.
Unfortunately, my school doesn’t really have a relationship with ND, as Georgia is more than 1000 miles away, and Georgian students tend to stay in state (we have great scholarship programs for instate schools). However, my counselor and I have a great relationship, and I’m sure she’d be glad to do it for me.
Also, I didn’t mean to let on that I have given up. I’m definitely persisting and fighting on to get off the waitlist - sorry that I’m kind of in a weird emotional state lately. Thanks for the motivational and kind words.
@OnTheBubble Thanks! That is a relief
Notre Dame is primarily a religious institution and students are disproportionately Catholic. They are working hard to be both a top research university, and also a Catholic university. However, it is very difficult to be both because top students and professors in the US are disproportionately Jews, non-Catholic Asians, and atheists. At many top 10 schools, I would guess that those three groups are the majority of the population. Notre Dame can’t admit many student from these groups and maintain their Catholic identity. It is a difficult task.
I don’t think their is a bias against Asians that keeps that percentage low, it is their strong commitment to Catholics.
@Much2learn Notre Dame seems to be achieving both just fine.
@wneely16: I’m wishing good luck - the Irish kind! I’m glad to hear you are taking action. That is usually the best way to sort out disappointment. Your emotions are very understandable. Like I said before, college admissions these days puts too much pressure on kids.
@Much2learn I say this with the utmost respect but your post is beyond ridiculous. I think you should look through the faculty profiles. The mission of the school has always been undergraduate focused. There have been many calls over the past 30 years to start a medical school because the endowment grows so rapidly. They have not because of the fear it would marginalize the undergraduates, which are about 80% of the total body. If you think ND has trouble attracting faculty I suggest you read this: http://al.nd.edu/about/the-faculty/fellowship-record/
@OnTheBubble
I am not suggesting that top students and faculty are not interested in ND. I am suggesting that ND’s Catholic identity means that they can’t simply choose the best students and professors available like the Ivies can, and that complicates matters for them. Within that constraint, they do an amazing job and are currently ranked 18th in US News. I just think they would be in the top 10, if they only chose the best students available.
I guess you don’t think they are that good?
@Much2learn I think the school’s Catholic identity cuts both ways. I also think ND is able to attract some amazing students and professors who choose ND over Ivy and equivalent schools because they want a school with the type of Catholic identity that ND offers. So while some students/faculty may be lost due to the school’s Catholic identity, I feel that others who might otherwise choose an Ivy type of school are particularly drawn to the ND.
@happy1 “I think the school’s Catholic identity cuts both ways.”
Clearly, it does. Plus, Catholics are fairly education focused too. It is just that the demographics are working against them over time.
“So while some students/faculty may be lost due to the school’s Catholic identity”
In my experience, unlike many conservative protestant colleges, Catholics at ND do an amazingly good job of being friendly and welcoming to Jews, Asians and atheists. To me, that is because students and professors have their beliefs, but they are intellectually honest, and willing to consider scientific evidence honestly. They also tend to be positive, and accepting of differences. For those reasons, I don’t think they lose many of these candidates because ND is Catholic, I think that they just don’t admit as many strong candidates as they could, but those are tradeoffs they have to decide. It is still an outstanding, world class, institution.
Honestly, I wasn’t intending to stir anyone up, except where I couldn’t resist tweeking @onthebubble with the “I guess you don’t think they are that good?” comment, which was only intended to be funny. I think the Adcom is well aware of all of what I have said.
@Much2learn Coming from an uber high achieving school district with a large Jewish population I can say that many Jewish/non-Catholic students do not consider ND as an option because of its strong Catholic identity. There are so many great colleges and universities out there so it is easy to cross off any one school (or few schools) as an option.
@Much2learn: I hesitate to wade in here, because I think this discussion is treading into the area of nuance and perception. One thing that you said about Notre Dame being a “religious institution” - and I think you meant because it has religious identity and is an institution, but there is another meaning of that term - as in “church”. I think you should know about a very controversial move by Fr Ted, who was President of ND - the Land of Lakes Conference - which in essence made a distinction of goals of Catholic Education and those of the Catholic Church. This was not only controversial then, but now, and occasionally there are comments on the Notre Dame boards about how Notre Dame no longer has a Catholic Identity from people who don’t agree with this perspective. What you noted about “…students and professors…willing to consider scientific evidence honestly” is exactly what the Land o Lakes conference was about. Here’s a quote from the text:
" With regard to the undergraduate – the university should endeavor to present a collegiate education that is truly geared to modern society. The student must come to a basic understanding of the actual world in which he lives today. This means that the intellectual campus of a Catholic university has no boundaries and no barriers. It draws knowledge and understanding from all the traditions of mankind; it explores the insights and achievements of the great men of every age; it looks to the current frontiers of advancing knowledge and brings all the results to bear relevantly on man’s life today. The whole world of knowledge and ideas must be open to the student; there must be no outlawed books or subjects. Thus the student will be able to develop his own capabilities and to fulfill himself by using the intellectual resources presented to him."
The whole thing for anyone interested: http://archives.nd.edu/episodes/visitors/lol/idea.htm
I think the reason Notre Dame has become such an academic powerhouse starts with the definition of the nature of a Catholic University outlined by the Land o Lakes Conference, which I think is reflected in the mission statement of Notre Dame today.
I agree with you that Notre Dame does a good job of being welcoming, but that is consistent with the goals of the University. The whole reason for this post is that sometimes people confuse a religious school with the church itself, and think the limits of the church apply to the school.
Where I disagree with you is that I think ND does admit strong students whatever their background, but the application pool is fairly self selecting - someone who objects to the the religious tone in the community might not want the culture as part of their education.
"Coming from an uber high achieving school district with a large Jewish population I can say that many Jewish/non-Catholic students do not consider ND as an option "
To me that is unfortunate. We are “Nones” and sent DD there for a 2 week engineering camp. She was one of the only non-Catholics there, but it was not a problem. Everyone made her feel very welcome, she learned a lot, and never felt like she was being treated differently. She loved it, and we were completely impressed with the whole thing. She is still in touch with some friends she made. It was all very positive.
Funny that this was just shared by ND today on Twitter: https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=U85cON1dA9E
Funny, so many of the aspects that some of you consider barriers are attractive to us. Our S specifically avoided Ivies with far left leanings. An alternate path of thought is, traditional family values, altruism, high moral standards and spirituality (even as non-Catholics) are important for young people in their formative years.
Those values are at least marginalized at many top universities today. Little things like an inclusive “house” system for social interaction versus greek still make a lot of sense to a lot of exceptional students.
So, what’s his second choice? Where else did he apply.
He’s been accepted to a number of target/safeties. Waiting this week on Duke, Vanderbilt and Stanford. Yes, I realize Stanford is pretty secular, but it would be such an incredible launchpad for his area of interest. Bear in mind, he’s not looking for a deeply conservative (or religious) experience; just wants to avoid the liberal bastions of Harvard and Brown.