Diversity in MT Schools

College Majors Musical Theater Major
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<p>My observation from my friends on this board whose kids we know from summer programs, and from people my son has danced with, is that minority students are often the very most talented over many white students and would beat out most white students in an audition for college MT, regardless of race or diversity that a program is looking for.</p>

<p>Also, FYI (not exactly a musical, but an opportunity), Elon's first play of this school year is for an African American cast. MT students audition for both the musicals and the plays. At Collage, they sounded very excited about this upcoming show. (Also, an MT senior African American guy, who is in this play, sang at half time with the band at last week's football game and was great!). I assume white students such as mine were not considered for the below play (from Elon's web site):</p>

<p>Blues for an Alabama Sky - a play by Pearl Cleage.
Black Box Theatre, Center for the Arts, Oct. 4-10, 2006
This is a production that promises scintillating dialogue rich in African American culture, great fun and tense drama as the lives of struggling musicians, artists and social activists unfold during the era of the Harlem Renaissance and Depression. Central themes include economic hardship and reproductive rights.</p>

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<p>Ericsmom, you said:</p>

<p><< ...that minority students are often the very most talented over many white students and would beat out most white students in an audition for college MT ...>></p>

<p>Could you clarify this? Do you mean to say that most of the minority students who audition for college BFA programs in musical theater are simply <em>more talented</em> than their white contemporaries who audition?</p>

<p>I have heard other people comment that (for whatever reason) fewer minority students pursue degrees in musical theater. If that is true, and I think it probably is, then what you say is quite intriguing, because you seem to be stating that though the number of minority students who audition is fewer, their talent/ability is bigger. Is that what you meant to say?</p>

<p>My D is an acting major at an arts high school and the environment there is absolutely diverse: about 60% of the kids attending are black/African American and the remaining are white and Hispanic and Asian. I have seen many performances there and watched classes in singing, instrumental music, dance, acting, etc. and have to say I have never noticed any discernable difference in people's level of talent based on race. Certainly I have noticed African American kids who are amazing and are better performers than some of their white classmates, but I also have noticed the reverse. I am just not sure one can generalize in this way, and frankly, doing so makes me uncomfortable. But perhaps that is just me. I am interested in what others here have to say.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Is there anyone willing to solicit this information from the various school representatives? Ask them to post their breakdown? I would be interested to know this also.</p>

<p>I have to believe that NYU is very diverse with it's location...or is this naive thinking?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't know the statistical breakdown for the BFA programs (just the universities at large). I just know anecdotal observations. NYU's BFA program draws from around the country (and other countries) and so the location doesn't really have to do with the make up of the program as it is not like they are all from NY whatsoever. As I mentioned earlier, in my D's progam, she has mentioned friends and peers who are African American, Hispanic, Asian, Asian Indian, and even has a good friend who is wheelchair bound. I've visited some other programs and sat in on classes or saw shows. One day at UMich, I went to a workshop in which every BFA MT student from all four years were in attendance, and it was mostly a Caucasian group. My D has an Asian friend who was set to attend BOCO this year but at the last minute decided to do UMich BFA in Dance program. She has an African American friend who is adopted by Caucasian parents from our town doing the BFA in Dance at Tisch. She has a friend from our region who is Ecuadorian and he is in Ithaca's BFA program. I saw a play with CMU acting students in a black box theater and one of the leads was Asian (and actually the character was meant to be Asian). I can think of African American kids I know at Tisch who have been cast in roles using color blind casting. </p>

<p>Yes, it would be very difficult to do a show like Ragtime that truly needs enough actors of color as that show would not work with color blind casting. However many shows can be done with color blind casting. My D went to a theater camp for years where a large majority were Caucasian, though there were students of other races also attending, but a much smaller number. The camp still put on Aida, Once on This Island, and Miss Saigon. I saw at my other D's theater camp, a production of Ain't Misbehavin with a white cast. In my younger D's theater camp's production of Pippin, Pippin (who was white)'s brother, Louis, was played by an African American. In their production of Annie, the boy playing Rooster was African American and if anyone know the story of Annie (who doesn't??? LOL), Rooster claims to be Annie's father. I think color blind casting is very common today.</p>

<p>However, I fully understand how a minority student, and/or her/his parents would have another "layer" to think about when it comes to BFA programs and college. At some schools, being non Caucasian may be an asset in terms of casting as some schools strive for diversity in casting. At other theaters who cast strictly by the "traditional" race of a character in a play, it wouldn't be so great. Outside of college, I can think of many casting choices that were color blind. I know a CMU educated actress, with Broadway credits, who played Liza Doolittle in My Fair Lady at a major regional theater and she is African American. </p>

<p>Certainly if one is not Caucasian (and even if one is), examining the diversity on campus, as well as in the BFA program, and observing casting choices, is something important to consider. My kids are Caucasian but they did care about going to schools with a diverse student body because they did not have that chance growing up because almost everyone where we live is white, though there was much socio-economic diversity. They like being with kids from many races, religions, backgrounds, regions of the country and from other countries. It is a big plus in terms of their educational experience.</p>

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<p>Sorry Susan I should have been more clear. I meant to say that NYC would be a magnet for more diverse groups...because of it being NYC...pure and simple. You have to admit NYC is a melting pot for different religions, countries, races, and etc...much more so than perhaps my neck of the woods (cheese country).</p>

<p>SUE</p>

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<p>Soozievt's post brings up an issue I would be interested to hear more about. What are the policies of the individual schools for casting? I believe a lot of college programs are a bit unlike some high schools and some community theaters, in that they only take "blind casting" so far as they are trying to be more realistic about the roles students will be able to get out in the real world. This is an issue related to, but not the same as, "type." I hear about shows like the one Soozievt mentions of the African American actress playing Liza Doolittle, but I have never personally witnessed this at the level of at least a "major regional theater." I don't know how often that happens. I know I have never seen a national tour production where an Asian American played Millie or an African American played Peggy (42nd Street). Maybe these shows are a good example of the differences in whether a role can be blindcast or not, in fact. It would be pretty darn difficult for Millie to be played by an Asian American with the whole "yellow peril" satire subplot in the show; however, I think an African American or an Asian American could play Peggy--because the show isn't about race. When race or ethnicity or nationality is part of the storyline itself, that's when a show needs to be played by actors of the races of the characters. I'd love to hear how many college MT programs have done shows like "42nd Street" and used non-traditional (in terms of race) casting.</p>

<p>I think the issue of some shows being about race, though, is what keepingcalm was talking about when mentioning shows like Ragtime and Miss Saigon. These shows are, in part, about race. Father and Mother need to be white; Coalhouse and Sarah need to be African American. Kim needs to be Asian; Chris needs to be non-Asian. Beyond that, there might be room for some color blind casting.</p>

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<p>Sue, NYC is very very very diverse for sure! LOL The experience of going to college in NYC after growing up in rural Vermont is like night and day in many respects, and diversity is indeed one of them! I recall as we were driving into the city to take out D to college for the first time and as she looked out the window, her first remark was how diverse everyone was in the city and how great that was going to be after growing up in a totally white culture. </p>

<p>As I mentioned before, looking at diversity within the BFA program is a consideration, but I'd also examine the diversity of the actual college or university itself. One thing that attracted my kids to some of the more selective schools is that those schools tend to value a diverse student body and strive to create one. At both of my kids' schools, Brown and NYU, a major facet of their education is indeed mixing with kids from so many backgrounds, regions of the country, countries of the world, races and religions. It has been very cool for them and something they wanted in a college. I realize I am just talking of a Caucasian kid's experience and the issues differ for someone of a different race and what they are looking for in a school. Clearly, it is something worth exploring at a college and within a program at the college. Also, as you say, there is also the area in which the college is located. For my D going to NYU, the experience of being in NYC is a part of her education as well! Even for my D who goes to Brown, one thing she also looked for was to be in an environment totally different than the one in which she grew up (not that she didn't like it here!) and in fact, was a factor in her choosing her school which is in a city. Part of going to college is who you attend with and also where it is located. It all factors into the education as a whole.</p>

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<p>Mtmommy, I definitely agree that there is a difference between a show like Ragtime in which the characters need to be a certain race as it is part of the storyline, as opposed to other shows like 42nd Street where any race could play any character. For someone who is non Caucasian, it would be helpful to inquire about previous college productions and the casting in those shows and the record of color blind casting at colleges which they are considering. </p>

<p>The actress I mentioned who played Eliza Doolittle, actually was in Ragtime on Broadway and has played other traditionally African American roles. I thought it was great she was cast as Eliza in a major production of My Fair Lady. </p>

<p>My daughter is the musical director of a student run musical at Tisch this semester and the casting team cast a girl in a wheelchair in one of the roles. That same girl was cast in a professional summer stock theater this past summer. My D has an African American male friend who is older than her at Tisch who played the male African American part in Full Monty at Tisch but he has also been in various mainstage shows there in non African American roles. My D said that the girl playing the Mistress this semester at CAP in Evita is actually from Argentinia.</p>

<p>Today, on Broadway, it seems that there is a lot of diversity in the casting of a show and quite a bit of color blind casting as well. Sometimes, of course, there are roles written specifically for a certain race, such as in Spelling Bee, there is a part written for an Asian American female.</p>

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<p>But Sue, cheese can be diverse!</p>

<p>My D is Asian. Like everyone else in MT, she's had auditions and casting experiences that have turned out well and others that haven't. But at the risk of sounding -- or making her sound -- like a wacko paranoid conspiracy-theory lunatic, I have to point out some things we sensed over the years: One, her skin color was noticed, which -- let's be honest here -- a Caucasian kid's is not, unless he or she happens to be in a great minority in a particular setting. That in itself means we haven't achieved color-blindness. Two, because her look was distinctive, she sometimes felt it was perceived as not being versatile enough -- again, a failure of true color-blindness. I hope this doesn't sound grouchy. And my D by no means feels bitter or sorry for herself. She loves what she looks like, hallelujah! But the simple fact is that we're still a society in which our skin color affects how people see us, sometimes subtly and sometimes not, and often in situations in which it should have no relevance.</p>

<p>I also want to say that I definitely don't believe in color-blind casting for its own sake. Casting Audra McDonald as Carrie Snow in the mid-90s revival of Carousel was a stroke of genius. Casting Toni Braxton as Belle a few years ago was...not.</p>

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<p>ps, I posted mine after reading 5pants; hadn't read soozievt's and mtmommy's posts.</p>

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<p>Artsymom, MTMommy, Keepingcalm and others I inadvertantly missed, I think you guys bring a perspective to all of this in a way that no student or parent of a Caucasian could possibly offer. Your kds' experiences and perceptions will be different. Artsymom, I agree that we have a long way to go on all of this. I do believe that many colleges, particularly the more selective ones (not talking BFA now) very much value building diverse student bodies. As far as casting goes, I think it has become more color blind over the years at the professional level of theater and that ensembles are also often quite diverse. So, there is hope. Certain roles are written specifically for certain races and certain shows truly would require certain racial casting due to the story line but in all other cases, hopefully casting is about talent and not skin color, etc. I think it is moving in that direction but likely varies depending on the theater or area.</p>

<p>MTMommy, while not a specific "role" per se, I recall a wonderful Asian dancer I saw in Movin' Out on Broadway :D.</p>

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<p>Last year I attended a fascinating seminar on the whole issue of non traditional casting that was held at one of our city's Equity theaters. The seminar brought together casting directors, teachers of theater/acting, actors, playwrights and directors, as well as attorneys. It also featured performances by local theater groups, who offered various scenes cast untraditionally. (For instance, in one, "The Tempest's" Prospero was a woman. In another -- a scene from "Steel Magnolias," one of the women was in a wheelchair. In yet another, all the actors doing "Glass Menagerie" were black.) Most agreed that when a show is not <em>about</em> race or the social conditions of a select group of people, it mattered little what color or ethnicity (and sometimes, not even what sex/gender) an actor was. However, almost everyone agreed -- and quite vehemently! -- that, for instance, it would be wrong on many levels to cast an August Wilson play with white actors. (In fact, I believe someone there said that Mr. Wilson specifically prohibited that from happening.) There was a very lively discussion about a controversy that was going on at the time involving a high school director who had cast a white boy as Jim and a black boy as Huck in a production of "Big River." The two leads won CAPPIE awards, and that brought the production to the attention of the R&H organization, which objected because, as they saw it, Huckleberry Finn is ABOUT race, and casting Huck as black and Jim as white contradicted the point of the piece. (Read here if you are interested:<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/20/AR2005052001944.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/20/AR2005052001944.html&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p>

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<p>MTMommy-</p>

<p>What I was trying to point out was that this paticular person I know who is Spanish was, to me, not nearly as talented as some of the non-minority students who had auditioned who were not admitted to the program. It has nothing to do with that I think white students SHOULD be more talented, because I come from a very diverse background as well (My father is Peurto Rican) but unfortunately, I just don't look it. I guess what I was trying to point out was that I feel like there are sometimes other students who are minorities who are sometimes not as qualified as other students who come a dime a dozen. But because auditors are hoping to cast a more diverse class, ethnicity may be a deciding factor for that final spot. Then again, who am I to say that that anyone is not qualified for a program? Its a case by case situation. However, I think there is a fine line between the 2. These are based solely on some of my observations. Not any opinions I have about particular programs</p>

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<p>I have to say that when I have made comments about diversity and race they were my opinions and are not necessarily that of my D. My D is an adpoted AA of caucasian parents so socially and culturally she reflects her upbringing, which is a white, middle income professional home. She has always attended public schools with a roughly 50% caucasian and 50% on-caucasian population- depending on where we are this was composed of different demographics. She also spent almost 3 years living in Southern Africa where her father and I were the minority in the small town. </p>

<p>She is quite vocal that HER preference at a college will not be based on racial diversity. She has told me she knows what it means to be (and please pardon the term it is hers) "urban ghetto" and she wants nothing to do with it (hence not really interested in an Urban institution). She feels that she can fit happily in any program no matter what the racial diversity of it is. She has had very positive personal experiences with casting, color blind and race specific so she does not believe that race really holds her back. She thinks her father and I are obessed with race issues.</p>

<p>As parents we are happy that she does not see this as an issue, although I think she is naive. However, there have been nasty comments made and experiences that she seems to have glossed over or doesn't remember. We have also been protective of her and not let her go to auditions if we think they won't seriously consider her.</p>

<p>At this point in time, I think that being AA (and behaving and speaking white) HAS been to her advantage. I know she has received parts to increase the diversity of specific casts. However, she has also not been considered for parts because some one else "looks" more like the part. Oh well, now she is too tall for many parts her friends can still do, so she doesn "look" those parts either. When she auditions for colleges, if being AA is a deciding factor for some programs to accept her, well we are not going to make a fuss.</p>

<p>At my D's performing arts school what seems to hold some of the AA kids back isn't race or talent, but is more based in class and knowing and conforming to the norms and expectations of theatre productions. I fear this will continue to limit many of these kids' choices in the future. But I do not think this is the sole problem or responsibilty of colleges and MT programs nor should they be blamed for a lack of diversity, unless they are truely discriminating.</p>

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<p>Wow!!!!!</p>

<p>KeepingCalm, I have to say that your daughter sounds like an incredibly special young lady with a positive attitude and a great outlook on life. As a fellow parent, I can understand your propensity for overprotection, but it sounds to me like you may be putting a bit of a choke-hold on the poor kid.</p>

<p>I’m sure you’re not interested in my 2 cents, being that I'm the fat, balding “Caucasian” in the group. But I feel compelled to comment on several of your comments. Please ingest with prescribed grain of salt.</p>

<p>
[quote]
She thinks her father and I are obsessed with race issues.

[/quote]

Well.....obsessed is such a strong word. :)</p>

<p>
[quote]
As parents we are happy that she does not see this as an issue, although I think she is naive.

[/quote]

I’m naïve. Your daughter? I think not.</p>

<p>
[quote]
However, she has also not been considered for parts because some one else "looks" more like the part.

[/quote]

Well, of course. All actors will eventually face this same obstacle, at least at some point in time. It has nothing to do with diversity, ethnicity, “discrimination”. It’s called casting.</p>

<p>
[quote]
When she auditions for colleges, if being AA is a deciding factor for some programs to accept her, well we are not going to make a fuss.

[/quote]

And here’s the part where I have to ask, “Where the helphaba did that come from?”</p>

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<p>Mtgeek,
Yes, I have understood your point. You articulated it very well in this last post, too, BTW. I hope you understand that I am trying to debate a very interesting issue; I do not have a problem with you for your views, as they are your own viewpoints and very valid. I know from reading your posts that you're a dedicated performer and student who has worked very hard.</p>

<p>Also, I still feel that your opinion of yourself as a "type" having more competition as a brown-haired caucasian-looking baritone than an African American baritone is very valid, since the majority of students auditioning for these slots are white. But that does not mean that a particular school even WANTS to fill one (or many) of their slots with a minority student. That is an assumption that a lot of us make. I know that some schools do feel that way. I am not sure that every school feels that way. Some schools insist that they just choose the most talented students auditioning--period. Other schools might even have less of a desire for (too "many") minority students because of casting issues. This is something that we cannot know as we are not on the "inside" making these decisions. Before anyone would jump to the conclusion that I am saying that schools would put "quotas" on minority students in MT program, let me clarify that I am just positing the notion as a possibility that should not be automatically discounted. I am also suggesting that this subject is much more complex than can be summed up by one anecdotal experience.</p>

<p>Actually this debate has been engaged in in another way on this forum. There are certainly more brown-haired caucasian-looking sopranoes auditioning than brown-haired caucasian-looking baritones, right? Does that mean that the men who get selected for programs are sometimes less talented than the women who get selected? Some people feel that this is true. Others feel that the men who bother to go through this process have to be even more committed and talented than the women. Personally, I think we can't generalize that either viewpoint is the correct viewpoint. Perhaps a little of both is true--or neither.</p>

<p>Keepingcalm,
That's interesting what you say about your d's viewpoint of this issue. It's not the same as my d's viewpoint, and I think that might be a reflection of their experiences and environment. My d does like being more noticeable by being in the minority in her environment; she views this as a positive side effect of being raised by caucasian parents in a community that is more caucasian, a little less Hispanic, and very little Asian (she's Korean) and African American. I think her outgoing, social personality has helped her in this respect. However, in our community, my d has experienced outright racism in casting, and this has hurt her (SrMoment: I am not talking about "casting," but actual racism, and if you had ever experienced it or seen a loved one go through it, you would know it for what it is). Maybe it's even made her work harder; I don't know for sure, as she's a very driven person.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I am not talking about "casting," but actual racism.....

[/quote]

Now hold on there just a gawl-darned minute Ms. mtmommy! You used the "r" word on CC. You just can't do that......without creating a new thread!</p>

<p>Hey CollegeMom! Can we get a new thread here in the Diversity department?</p>

<p>Sometimes I'm so funny I just have to laugh out loud. :rolleyes:</p>

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<p>SrMoment-
I enjoyed your comments and don't need a grain of salt. I learned long ago if I am going to discuss, race, class, religion and/or politics in public forums I have to be willing to hear other peoples ideas. (Otherwise its not a discussion and I might as well just talk to my husband about it since we pretty much agree!!)</p>

<p>I do have a few response-may be to clarify.
Obsessed, well my D is still a teen and it's a heavily used word in her vocabulary.
I thank you for suggesting we might be overprotective. We are more frequently described as negligent- sending her off for weeks at a time to foriegn places without us, dragging her to developing countries, ... As for over protective in auditioning-when we called about an Annie audition and were told they really needed "someone who would look natural in the wig", we didn't bother. But Please WHO looks natural in that horrible thing!</p>

<p>As for the difference between discrimination and casting - I thought I acknowledged that in the next sentence. But maybe is wasn't clear. At almost 5'7" she doesn't get kid parts that her 5" blonde friends (she has 2 who fit this description) do but we assumed it was because she was too tall, not because she bas black. We fully understanding "look" in casting but some "looks" are more flexible than others.</p>

<p>Finally, as for your last comment.
I am not sure if you are referring to the writing, since it doesn't fit with the rest of the paragraph so it really is a "where the ___ did that come from." Or the meaning of the statement. If the first- I was cutting and pasting and rather careless.
If the second - well my final take on who gets in and doesn't get in when it is moves beyond a theoretical and societal issue to my kid, is I want any advantage I can give to my kid. So if being AA is going to make her more attractive to some program I am not going to refuse an acceptance. I have no idea if it will and wasn't suggesting that it woudl be the case. But race cuts both ways (advantaging and disadvantaging), so I say use it when it is to your benefit.</p>

<p>Just to clarify that I am not completely exploitive- my husband and I do work to question an dseek solutions to issues of race and poverty (and their intersections) as a societal issue professionally and in the personal living choices we make. But I am not one for sacrificing my child for my political beliefs at this age. She will have to make those decisions herself.</p>

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<p>mtmommy- I do agree with many of your views.. but I guess we can agree to disagree on the others. And yes, I'm sure we are both right in some situations. And I'm sure we are both wrong in a couple situations as well. We can only go by the experiences we have had... and I have to admit that my experience involving these issues have been few and far in between. Like I said.. they are just some observations from an objective eye (or maybe I'm a little more subjective seeing that I'm an actor haha- who knows!)</p>

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<p>MTgeek,
Agreed! :cool:</p>

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<p>KeepingCalm.....how cool that you responded to my comments.....and without ripping off my head.
Thank You! :)</p>

<p>And thank you for your clarifications. Because I really did misinterpret your comment about "if being AA is a deciding factor for some programs......". Now that I understand you were saying that you would favor an MT program that embraced your daughters ethnicity, I'm totally with you. That's not exploitive at all. It's just good, smart parenting! :)</p>

<p>I should also clarifiy my own position a bit before too many people get the wrong impression. Although I've attempted to lighten up this thread just a little, I don't take lightly the real concern/experience of racism (yep, let's call it what it is) that many people have to deal with on a regular basis. Unfortunately, I suspect we'll always have some people who choose to use race as a hateful, divisive tool to elevate themselves. How unbelievably stupid of them. This is one for which I wish I had an answer.</p>

<p>So I appreciate all the helpful comments by 5pants, keepingcalm, mtmommy, MTgeek and artsymom to help me understand all your perspectives.</p>

<p>Of course, I'm not so grateful to nydancemom who outed me as the fat, balding, "Caucasian" dude. Drat that woman! Guess I'll just have to live with that. ;)</p>