<p>GA2012MOM, advantage?..lol, maybe a little, but consider what I had to overcome to get to this point…all of my other friends who qualify for QB are looking at local/community colleges. I think I deserve the ‘advantage’ that you mentioned.</p>
<p>Personally I don’t see the significance of race and affirmative action either. Anyone, from any race can get into a College or University.</p>
<p>Ratnik - The Asian kids at my school are just as PASSIONATE about their ECs as the white kids. And the black and Latin@/Hispanic kids, for that matter. Are you suggesting that Asian kids ON THE WHOLE write less profound essays than any other racial group? What evidence supports that? I would assume equality unless there is evidence otherwise.</p>
<p>The Duke mismatch study is useful not wrt mismatch, but for its presentation of average adcom rankings of SUBJECTIVE factors. Admissions officers at Duke and Dartmouth, at the very least, would disagree with Bay in saying that subjective factors cannot be quantified–they do it for a living.</p>
<p>Hunt - I’ve reread the passage you quoted and still don’t understand your interpretation. If schools were discriminating against BOTH Asians and whites, removing preferences would result in an equal boost for Asians and whites. Instead, Asian students gain far more than white students.</p>
<p>Regarding methodology, I’ve only read part of Espenshade’s study, but my understanding is that the study took acceptance rates for various racial/ethnic groups at different SAT brackets and applied those same acceptance rates to a different race at the same SAT bracket. IIRC, the admission rate for a black applicant to schools included in the study was >90% for the highest SAT bracket, 1500-1600. The same admission rate for Asian applicants in the 1500-1600 SAT bracket was considerably lower; maybe around 50%? I don’t recall, and I may be citing a different study because this was a while ago. So you would take the “base” acceptance rate for each bracket as being that of whites and apply it across all races, then calculate differences.</p>
<p>Um, but I’m not exactly sure that was really Espenshade’s study. It definitely isn’t an original method made up by me, though–I’m not that clever with statistics–so I read it somewhere.</p>
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The study implies it because it does not say what would happen when URM preferences are removes, but rather what would happen when ALL racial biases, positive or negative, are removed.</p>
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<p>As matter of fact, those are the ones who can not get in the elite schools. For the ones who get in, their parents usually do not know what the kids are doing. Most of the Asian kids I know who got in HYPS scored almost perfect SAT before they got into high school.</p>
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Since both gain, clearly the schools are discriminating against both–although, perhaps, not to the same degree.
And to Keilexandra, are the Asian kids involved in a broad range of ECs? I have to say that at my kids’ school, they tend to be highly concentrated in a few ECs, and tend to be primarily interested in a limited number of academic subjects (primarily math and science). There are plenty of exceptions, of course, but I’m talking about the observable distribution.</p>
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And “perhaps not to the same degree” is EXACTLY where the discrimination lies. And it’s a significant difference in “degrees,” for whereas the affect of racial objectivity on whites is negligible, it would increase Asian representation at top schools from 24 to 32%, a 33% increase in population percentage.</p>
<p>@ewho: So you’re essentially saying these kids picked up SAT study books by themselves in middle school? I simply don’t believe that.</p>
<p>Hunt – you’ve still never answered the original confrontation. You seem to be simply brushing it aside. Whether or not the study is true, the words from the article clearly state that Asians would have more to gain than whites. So how are you interpreting that whites and Asians are equally harmed? In fact, there is no “perhaps” as you put it. From the article, it is OBVIOUS that Asians are hurt more. (Now you can argue whether or not that is in fact, objectively true)</p>
<p>Second, before disputing whether Asians are not involved in a broad range of EC’s…WHY DOES IT MATTER?? If you are applying to a top engineering program why does it matter if you’re varsity captain of your basketball team. Why does it matter if you’re student council. IN FACT, if you are applying to an elite college, wouldn’t it make more sense to become incredibly knowledgable in the areas you wish to pursue? Is it wrong not to be zoned in and simply be good at what you want to do?</p>
<p>Thirdly, the fact that Asians are simply book nerds is a STEREOTYPE. And where I live I can see that clearly. I play basketball for my school. The varsity captain in BOTH basketball and track were Asian in the past year. There are several Asians on the football team. And…there are WHITE people on the math team. Look, the fact that there is this stereotype that Asians just are pushed by they’re parents to study SAT’s all day is just that…a stereotype. There are plenty of Asians with EC’s to speak of but they are dragged down by the simply fact that society(I guess specifically top-tier colleges) views them through different perspective.</p>
<p>“shrinkrap: I will not comment on the insensitive comment about advantages of being born Asian. Others have done that job. But let me ask you, what happens if only half of the 1,500 get admitted without any crutches?”</p>
<p>Simba…And I, in turn will ignore the comment about crutches.</p>
<p>I am more worried about being insensitive. Help me out here. I believe there was one comment that said I suggested it was an “automatic” benefit, which I denied. I have no doubt that the folks here are working very hard to be competitive college applicants.</p>
<p>And I will repeat, that I am no statistics wizard. I don’t completely get the difference between individual and group statistics. For example, why is it okay to say that the statistics for the individual Asian applicant is not in his favor, but it is presumably NOT okay to draw the same conclusion about the individual Asian’s odd’s of success in graduating high school, attending college, avoiding diabetes, heart disease, incarceration or an early death. Again, I am NOT focused on college admission. When I read threads that suggests some high schooler wishes he was nor Asian, and that he was say African American, I am thinking of something else. For example, does he mean at birth, or at the point of applying to college? Would that make a difference?</p>
<p>So…help me out…I am simply stating that as a Physician, I think the risk factors, as a group, of being “Asian in the US”, whatever that means, puts you at lower risk for a lot of things. Being African American puts you at a higher risk for a lot of things. If a “random” African American kid said to me, I wish I was Asian, I would be sad, but I would understand. How is that insensitive?</p>
<p>^ The problem is that lower/higher risk of racial groups is irrelevant to whether those racial groups experience discrimination. I agree, being Asian in the US = lower risk of violent crime compared to African Americans; however, that does not make Asian discrimination in elite university admissions any less illegal or problematic.</p>
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It’s not insensitive, but to promote affirmative action based upon those correlations without considering that they are not literally caused by ethnicity is, or rather, even in extreme circumstances where ethnicity does directly affect circumstances, it is still insensitive because such scenarios would best be evaluated through individual consideration, not through the implementation of a policy that affects far more than that particular group.</p>
<p>I know this extends beyond what you were initially saying but it felt like a natural transition into my argument.</p>
<p>Whoaaa…okay…you lost me…</p>
<p>But that’s okay. </p>
<p>Peace out.</p>
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<p>I am acquainted with multiple young people who are in the Study of Exceptional Talent </p>
<p>[The</a> Study of Exceptional Talent (SET)](<a href=“http://cty.jhu.edu/set/index.html]The”>http://cty.jhu.edu/set/index.html) </p>
<p>and some of those young people are just plain curious, widely read at middle school age and advanced in their study of math. (I know a lot of alumni of the University of Minnesota Talented Youth Mathematics Program who had finished all the math that is ever tested on the SAT math section by the middle of seventh grade.) It doesn’t necessarily take picking up SAT cram books to score well on the SAT. The best single SAT cram book, if one must use a cram book, is simply the most current collection of previous SAT tests </p>
<p>[The</a> Official SAT Study Guide ™: Second Edition](<a href=“Store App”>Store App) </p>
<p>which is all some students need to reverse-engineer how to take the SAT and get a high score, by self-study.</p>
<p>Daily Princetonian story on the study mentioned in the thread-opening post here: </p>
<p>[Asians</a> may face tougher college admission process, study finds - The Daily Princetonian](<a href=“http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2009/10/12/24103/]Asians”>http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2009/10/12/24103/)</p>
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<p>Shrinkrap…answer is easy. Look the point of this thread is discrimination against Asians for COLLEGE ADMISSIONS. I’m not 100% on the statistics either. And I agree, I’ll give you that there are more African Americans who are in poverty and have worse living conditions than other Americans. BUT, this thread isn’t about that. It’s about whether or not students REGARDING ONLY their race are being discriminated against. And according to this study, Asians need higher test scores than African Americans to get into comparable colleges.</p>
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<p>If every factor used to make admissions decisions can be quantified, then once Princeton’s data is disclosed, Jian Li’s case should be pretty easy to prove or disprove.</p>
<p>The disclosed Duke data in the mismatch study did not include legacy (“Alumni relation”), geographical residency information, or recruited athlete status. When those (and perhaps other considered factors that were not enumerated in the mismatch study) are accounted for, the results may look different.</p>
<p>(btw, if I remember correctly, Jian Li’s complaint also seeks to strike legacy preferences as well as racial preferences.)</p>
<p>asians still outrepresent all other minoroities at elite colleges and most universities in the United states - AA is sure doing a good job of depressing chances for asian people.
I pat myself on the back for making things harder for asians they only outnumber African Americans /Hispanics at all universities in general. Poor asians.</p>
<p>Admit it. Asians who are rejected from HYPMSC still have a good chance at many other colleges and in the long run a doctor/lawyer/top professional who went to Yale is as good as one who went to Rutgers as long as he/she knows his/her jobs.</p>
<p>Furthermore, its been calculated -( will find study) that African Americans from disadvantaged neighborhoods/or african American males in general actually need that boost from elite colleges because being a black male in America- according to CNN is equal to having a felony.</p>
<p>I’d love to see a study done like that for Asian males/females. Probably being an asian Male and female in America alone is equal to going to Harvard or Yale. But this is wild speculation- however, its illustrates my point.</p>
<p>In the end, an analogy sums up AA-
you have a basket of bread full of fresh loaves- do you give the bread to the mass of starving people on the point of death or toanother group of rather hungry but mostly well-fed people. Take into account that the starving people will pay you 20$ for the bread and the less starving people will pay you $2000. Who do you give the bread to?
Who needs the bread most?</p>
<p>^^ Indeed, the Duke data does not quantify all factors used in admissions. It does, however, quantify SOME subjective factors, proving that this is possible; and it does debunk the oft-used claims that Asian students write poor essays or participate in more cliche ECs compared to students of other races. Presumably admissions officers are fit to judge the quality/originality of an essay and the true level of talent in ECs.</p>
<p>nil - To continue your analogy, you are neglecting the starving people who are nevertheless willing to pay $2000 (low-income Asians who work extremely hard to overcome obstacles) and the less starving people who are only willing to pay $200 (middle- and upper-class URMs).</p>
<p>And in any case, your analogy is flawed. In this universe, it is illegal to give out bread based on who is dressed in rags and who is dressed in nice, neat clothes; i.e. who is USUALLY hungry and who is USUALLY well-fed, but really they’ve just been assigned different appearances.</p>
<p>This has been a productive discussion, if one ignores the straw men and diversion posts interjected on both sides. (On my own “anti-AA” as well, I have seen several unknowledgeable opinions that I disagree with.)</p>
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And African-Americans are “starving to death” because of under-representation? This analogy makes sense applied to socioeconomic stature, not ethnicity.</p>