<p>Doesn’t matter that it “might have gone to an asian”. The point is a spot might have gone to someone, now it goes to someone else. We can decorate that with as many euphemisms and with as much semantic pretension as we want and it wouldn’t change anything.</p>
<p>^^^^^^^</p>
<p>iamsounsure, you say a spot that “might” have gone to somebody else. Please let me know how you know it might have, should have, or could have gone to somebody else. Nobody here is sitting in the admissions office, so it is all speculation, nothing more.</p>
<p>It has been said many times before, if you don’t like the product, don’t buy it.</p>
<p>The admissions officer is sitting in the admissions office…</p>
<p>This is not a “if a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear…” scenario…</p>
<p>The fact that affirmative action exists means “it might have, should have could have gone to somebody else.”</p>
<p>You are not arguing with any logic. Just feel good apologetics.</p>
<p>Look, I just wanted to point out that maybe the word stealing is not the best term to use- I think othat a debate on that word ignores the issue at present.
goblue93- are you talking about negative action?</p>
<p>But anyway, I just want to bring up a point buisnesses recieve federal aid sometimes-yet they discriminate on black applicants- its been proven by scientific studies on the basis of name and color. Racism is a scary word. Proving it is harder.
To some respects, every organization discriminates as long as one doesn’t call it racism nowadays- its not.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The stipulation is false, because it (again) assumes that higher scores “qualify” one more, make one more admissible, to those particular U’s. They do not make you more admissible. Data points do not have absolute value for these U’s; ranges are more important than the distinct score.</p>
<p>One thing that E&C study irrefutably demonstrates, however, is that this pair is utterly clueless about how college admissions decisions are made, and how un-weighted scores are in the general (holistic) scheme of things, even relying strictly on academic profile (not race, not e.c.'s, not region, not SES).</p>
<p>
I’ll fix your sentence: Racial AA should be abolished and our government should instead focus on improving the education disparity for disadvantaged students regardless of ethnicity and encouraging the pursuit of education for underrepresented minorities through non-discriminatory means.</p>
<p>Let’s clarify and identify where grade and SAT disparities seem to arise (I don’t think many can disagree with these points):
Socioeconomic differences: fewer opportunities, lower-quality education, environment unconducive to learning.
Racial differences: differing cultural values.</p>
<p>
I am half-Asian and half-Caucasian. I have a Caucasian last name; therefore I am essentially unaffected by racial affirmative action. In fact, I could technically apply to schools as a URM as I have some URM ancestry a little further down my family tree. Trust me - I have no personal motivations to argue against affirmative action. Rather I am arguing against it because I’ve recognized it as a convoluted form of racism and a hindrance to what I hope mankind one day may reach: the singular, human race.</p>
<p>Posted by fabrizio
</p>
<p>Posted by monstor344:
</p>
<p>monstor, I first don’t appreciate you “fixing” my sentence. If I didn’t like what it said- i would change it. Please don’t take the liberty in the future. sorry, but that just bugged me.
as for encouraging the pursuit of education for minorities through non discriminatory means - you do know thats still considered AA- right ?
wait let me add something to your list of factoprs keeping minorities down, the intrinsic sterotype of blacks as stupid from media, books and evrywhere we look.</p>
<p>asfor the URm comment- that’s really cool are you .09% black?</p>
<p>The singular human race : that means our goals are different- I am not arguing for a singilar human race- iam arguing for humanity with different races in living conditions and an equalized socieconomic outlook with no underclass races.</p>
<p>
Please, oh please, tell me how 1) You ignored my argument about the differences between individual scores and score trends, and 2) Why you dispute the validity of the Duke study that covers essentially all objective and subjective factors barring discriminatory factors.</p>
<p>[Princeton</a> University | Admission Statistics](<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/admission/applyingforadmission/admission_statistics/]Princeton”>http://www.princeton.edu/admission/applyingforadmission/admission_statistics/)
[Brown</a> Admission: Facts & Figures](<a href=“Undergraduate Admission | Brown University”>Undergraduate Admission | Brown University)</p>
<p>These numbers aren’t accidents. Trends; no context, no person-by-person case; strictly judging trends, YES, higher SAT scores do correlate with extremely higher acceptance rates. Even if that alone doesn’t necessarily mean that higher acceptance rates means that those groups are necessarily more qualified because of their scores, we have the academic index, former adcoms directly stating that even at the 2300+ level a higher SAT increases one’s chance at admission into an Ivy League, and so much more pointing in the direction that SAT scores affect an applicant’s qualifications, and even if you still don’t buy it, you still have yet to effectively debunk the implications of the Duke study.</p>
<p>
And I don’t see anything there that disagrees with the results of E&C and that drifts from the reality. And that literally has nothing to do with “stealing” a spot from admissions. But yes, if you do let in more URMs, fewer ORMs and Caucasians can be let in, if that’s the damning statement you’ve been trying to draw out of me (it’s merely a fact; colleges essentially have a fixed number of slots). There’s no stealing going on.
You wish racial barriers to remain intact? I’ve never heard someone claim that they prefer a world of many races and the problems that come from it over an integrated world that looks above the color of skin.</p>
<p>
- Really? It’s not the AA you seem to be preaching.
- And how do you think affirmative action is doing with regard to that stereotype? :)</p>
<p>nil desperandum - Please show me evidence that affirmative action ever aided Asian students. I seem to recall that by the time it was implemented, Asians were already “overrepresented.”</p>
<p>Racial diversity != socioeconomic diversity != cultural diversity. The three are NOT the same; they overlap, but not to such a degree that “racial diversity sums up all three.”</p>
<p>
[QUOTE=nil desperandum]
How can asians complain with that
[/quote]
Here we go again. Any person of any race has the right to complain about ILLEGAL DISCRIMINATION, if it is suspected to exist. I assure you that Asian people are also “continually judged negatively on their appearance/names before they can even open their mouths.” The glass ceiling in higher business management, for instance, is documented for ALL non-white ethnic groups. It is actually contributing to institutional racism to create a heirarchy of suffering.</p>
<p>I agree, negative action is what hurts Asian students the most–but negative action is, I believe (here’s the actually worthwhile debate of this topic), inherent in contemporary implementation of AA. And on the whole, on reasons of principle I also believe that racial AA should be eliminated altogether. Short rationale: The end never justifies the means.</p>
<p>goblue - I haven’t done the requisite legal research, but I believe that certain Supreme Court rulings created exceptional categories to Title VI. Affirmative action and women’s colleges, mainly.</p>
<p>GA2012MOM - It is common knowledge that in any given year, a college strives to admit X number of students in order to achieve Y/X yield and Z enrollment. Therefore, if a hypothetical black student (borderline admit) is not admitted, the “hole” created by X-1 must be filled by (X-1) + 1; in a race-blind admissions process, the “hole” might be filled by a hypothetical Asian or white student (also, in this hypothetical example, a borderline admit, but a stronger one in a race-blind context). While I dislike the connotations of the word “steal,” it is appropriate in the strictly denotative sense.</p>
<p>That some businesses receive federal aid while unconsciously practicing racial discrimination is not justification for–or even relevant to–an educational institution receiving federal aid to consciously practice racial discrimination.</p>
<p>epiphany - IIRC, the E&C study did use score ranges in order to find a statistically significant result. Obviously the difference between a 2300 and 23100 is nonexistent.</p>
<p>Also, an important clarification: AA/Affirmative Action in this debate is referring solely to the use of race as an explicit factor in elite college/university admissions. It IS possible to practice non-discriminatory means of AA–outreach, for instance–so let’s not conflate that with “special consideration” (Stanford’s term, at least 10 years ago according to a former dean; cf. 10,000 Admissions Decisions) or flagging all URMs with a specific marker (cf. Michele Hernandez and Dartmouth).</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>If it were this simple, someone would’ve published a critique of the 2005 study in a peer-reviewed journal long ago. But, the only critique to date does not focus on this; as I have repeatedly mentioned, it emphasized the distinction between “affirmative” and “negative” action and faulted Espenshade and Chung for conflating the two.</p>
<p>Despising a study doesn’t make it invalid, no matter how hard you try.</p>
<p>Monstor, If minorities had a substantial middle class+ upper class- then guess what? white people and blavk would have to coexist. there would be no white suburbs and blavk ghettos. Through this interaction, racism will be dispelled as black people break the cultural sterotypes created by false ideals. Theregore, there will be less racism. However, racism will probably never dissapear completely- its the way of the world.
There are still stupid jewish jokes and maybe there will still be stupid blavk jokes but the situation will be better. Furthermore, monstor the way you stated it- you wanted one race -ignoring differnces and cultural ethnicities and so on. While I think differences should be celebrated- like Irish pride day but one should not be penalized because of diferences. I hope I’ve cleared it up.</p>
<p>Re 407</p>
<p>Who kicked whom out in that example?</p>
<p>I, personally, hope for a world where people are identified by culture rather than skin color or appearance.</p>
<p>I quote from Asian nation:
When affirmative action was first implemented in the early 1970s, Asian Americans benefited from it in large numbers, as did Blacks, Hispanics/Latinos, American Indians and the group that has benefited the most, White women. </p>
<p>Read more: [Affirmative</a> Action : Asian-Nation :: Asian American History, Demographics, & Issues](<a href=“http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:BlvtGh9sr4kJ:www.asian-nation.org/affirmative-action.shtml+affirmative+action+helps+asians&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us#ixzz0U4BIKWQ8]Affirmative”>http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:BlvtGh9sr4kJ:www.asian-nation.org/affirmative-action.shtml+affirmative+action+helps+asians&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us#ixzz0U4BIKWQ8)</p>
<p>The words of Asians not mine. So therefore, Keilaxandra, AA helped Asians get to the point where they had enoughmoney/stable jobs to raise children and take care of families. Yay! for Affirmative action!
BTW, Keilaxandra to ivy league Universities everyone is a borderline admit. No one explicitly deserves admittance to an ivy. No one’s entitled to anything!
Whether conscious or not, discrimination still hurts minorities. While only negative action hurts asians. Furthermore, AA is not explicitly discriminative as I have already proved.</p>
<p>
Believe me; I am not naive enough to not realize that there is a class disparity between whites and blacks on a whole. But I am adamant in my belief that socioeconomic affirmative action and some form of integration of increased educational values into URM cultures (racial affirmative action does not accomplish this, at all) are the way to go for “evening the playing field.”</p>
<p>
Emphasis on education has been a staple of Asian culture for thousands of years. While Asians may have been beneficiaries of AA earlier on, their long-existing emphasis on education is the reason why their benefits were discontinued early on while AA persists on for other cultures. There’s nothing to legitimately suggest that racial affirmative action has worked before in changing cultural values and there’s no reason why that would change now.</p>
<p>I don’t place any more importance on the words of people of one race over another. Although I am familiar with the website Asian-Nation and am wary of its bias. In any case, I haven’t done the requisite research and will accept for now your assertion that affirmative action (as I defined it upthread, rather than as simply outreach?) aided Asian students in the beginning. --But I don’t think that’s necessarily a good thing. Discrimination is never a good thing (my PERSONAL opinion), even positive discrimination.</p>
<p>To elite schools, NOT everyone is a “borderline admit.” I am using admissions terminology, where even for the most selective schools, some admits are preferred over others. For example, students ultimately admitted off the waitlist know that X number of students were preferred admits over them. But to not be a “borderline admit” is not the same as “explicitly [deserving] admittance,” which I have never, ever claimed to be remotely true.</p>
<p>“Discrimination still hurts minorities.” Please note, ASIAN STUDENTS ARE ETHNIC MINORITIES. If you want to argue that point, Asian students are hurt by both negative action pre-college and racial discrimination post-college.</p>
<p>Please quote your previous “proof” that “AA is not explicitly discriminative.”</p>
<p>Monstor let me set you straight.
Yes,I’m glad that you understand that economy divides races. However, you continously IGNORE the fact that prevalent racism in society also hurts African Americans therefore, AA.
Second, monstor stop insulting African cultural values. As it said, African Americans benefitted from AA at first aling with asians-why? well, because African culture values education and intellect too- however, internalized racism AKA colonial mentality and other factors such as the drug boom have affected us disproportionately to the point where there is a breakdown in culture. Africans don’t need a program to change their culture- at the moment, the culture is broken- only African Americans can change that.</p>
<p>Keilaxandra, the boost Asians got from AA created the stable homes and comfortable culture they live in today. White women went from being 38% at colleges to over 50% now. So, i would disagree with you that AA is never a good thing. It is a good thing ergo the term positive discrimination.
Of course, in your term you use a black operson/ not a hipanic or a white woman as a borderline admit. What of a white person preffered over an asian person through bias against asians. Is he stealing an asian’s spot. In your terminology, yes. And considering that more white people steal more asian people’s spots by simple math- then turn your anger to the racist system of negative action NOT affirmative action.</p>
<p>If asians are hurt by discrimination,( i’m accepting your premise) then they are definetly not hurt bhalf as much as African Americans are. In fact, compared to african Americans the discrimination is probably quite small.</p>
<p>
Insulting their culture? Something tells me that you have not looked deeply into this issue. Do you take everything as an insult? Am I insulting African-American employees by claiming that African-Americans have a lower mean income than Caucasians?</p>
<p>And yes, I do recognize that part of the reason why this cultural difference may exist because of past tensions. No crying over spilled milk; rather, what we should be doing is resolving what we can fix. And I don’t have an easy solution for that, except that racial affirmative action is definitely NOT the right solution.</p>
<p>
- “stop insulting African cultural values”
- If you believe that only African-Americans themselves can change this, how on earth do you at the same time believe that racial affirmative action can help?</p>
<p>EDIT: I have a feeling that we should be discussing on the Race thread. We are starting to discuss matters not pertinent specifically to Asians.</p>